Old guy rant

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:39 am

Is it unreasonable to expect a college senior (music performance major) to check his email and show up for a rehearsal that for a gig that he committed to play? I hired a horn player to fill in with my brass quintet for a couple of upcoming recitals. The guy is a college senior and says he aspires to a career in music. Now this is not a high-paying affair, but he said he wanted to do it. I sent him 2 emails with rehearsal dates and times. So we start last night and he isn't there. 20 minutes in, I call him and he says he didn't know there was a rehearsal. At this point I am pretty ticked off already, but I held my tongue.

Then he sends me an email this morning saying he "forgot about rehearsal and hadn't checked his email." Is it dumb of me to think that an adult who aspires to a career in music would check his messages every now and then? Or I am just too old to realize that I should have sent him 10 texts to remind him?

End of rant.

WilliamLang · Post by **WilliamLang** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:46 am

it's on him. you have to check emails

CharlieB · Post by **CharlieB** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:09 am

A trombonist would be more dependable.

timbone · Post by **timbone** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:21 am

Whats sucks is this guy (as in all the others in this demographic) live in an electronic world, where's the excuse? The real problem is mommy didn't wake him up and put his play clothes out. NEXT!

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:24 am

A good learning lesson for him and a potential opportunity for the next person.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:36 am

He should've responded to your emails.
Never asking him, again, to substitute will teach him an important lesson if he wants to be professional - reliability.
And also that word gets around. One's credibility is everything. But . .

Always have an email recipient confirm that s/he received the message or, better yet, follow the email up with a personal telephone conversation.

Don't leave it up to chance. This is, at the same time, pessimistic but also on you for your own, and the group's, self-protection.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:22 am

Don't get me started

I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:33 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:22 am Don't get me started

I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him

The guy made a mistake. No reason to ban him for life for one mistake.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:42 am

“Is it unreasonable to expect a college senior (music performance major) to check his email and show up for a rehearsal that for a gig that he committed to play?”

We had this discussion recently. The consensus was to avoid college students as subs because they were too unreliable.

I recently played in a college ensemble for several terms. (I’m in my 60’s.) I was surprised at how ineffective most of these kids were at organizing themselves.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:57 am

"We had this discussion recently. The consensus was to avoid college students as subs because they were too unreliable."

I'm not sure I agree with that. When I was a college student, I never missed a rehearsal or gig. In addition, I was the music director for the Drama Dept. at UNT as well as a composer, and never had a problem with students not showing up for any of my ensemble events, rehearsals and performances.

KWL · Post by **KWL** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:59 am

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:33 am
Vegasbound wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:22 am Don't get me started

I wouldn't book him again, and would not be in any way worried about letting it be known that he is an unreliable, unprofessional and not to book him
The guy made a mistake. No reason to ban him for life for one mistake.

As someone who spent a couple of years freelancing in the D.C. area, that is exactly what would have happened to me had I had pulled that stunt. It will be a learning experience for him before it becomes real.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:03 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:42 am “Is it unreasonable to expect a college senior (music performance major) to check his email and show up for a rehearsal that for a gig that he committed to play?”

We had this discussion recently. The consensus was to avoid college students as subs because they were too unreliable.

I recently played in a college ensemble for several terms. (I’m in my 60’s.) I was surprised at how ineffective most of these kids were at organizing themselves.

Frequently, as in this case, it depends on the individual. There may be tendencies but every person is an individual and should be treated as such.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:54 pm

Maybe, but if choosing between a college kid and an experienced player, one might want to rely on the player who has already learned that lesson. Let the kid get his experience on someone else’s time.

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:09 pm

I had a couple of my (university) students who were not checking emails and missed lessons that had been re-scheduled. I rather loudly explained to them that -"they want to be trombone players - if you can't check your messages, you'll miss BOTH of the gigs you get called for that year."

Jim Scott

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:24 pm

I don't want to rag on the guy too hard. He is a nice kid and has subbed with us before. He just made a mistake. I was just feeling a little ticked off this morning as we now have 2 rehearsals left to put together a recital with some pretty challenging music. Our group is stuck in that semi-pro category, where the really good pros don't want to play with us because we can't pay them to rehearse and the lesser players can't hack the music as it is too hard. Our horn seat has always been the hardest one to fill. Most of the horn players I know are either pros or they stink.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm

No doubt, I'd choose the more reliable player, but it may be helpful to the college kid if someone explained to him what would happen in the pro world if he's not reliable. Give him the benefit of the doubt - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I worked a job from the age of 15 bagging groceries and collecting carts, and this job taught me punctuality, reliability, and how to be dependable. Perhaps this college kids has no such experience and simply needs someone to nudge him in the right direction.

Schlitz · Post by **Schlitz** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:29 pm

Vegastokc · Post by **Vegastokc** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:26 pm

These days everyone responds differently to different communications - I experience this every day at work with professional adults.
Email may be enough for some of us "older" dudes, but unfortunately we may have to hit others with as many types as possible: email for details, texts for reminders and confirmations, phone calls for clarity (the leased liked method by the younglings), snapchat, facebook, and instagram for audio visual aids, handouts for physical evidence, etc

If he is really needed then there may not be another choice but to use him.
But yes, otherwise this needs to be a solid life lesson for this cat.

"If you're not first you're last!" -Ricky Bobby's Daddy

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:02 pm

I do computer support for a living and it seems that most customers want to text me these days, which I find really annoying. Call me or email. If I don't hear the little beep for the text, I might not see it for a while. Then again I know people who basically say never ever call me for anything.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:27 pm

I'm an old guy. A few years ago when I had a full time job I was asked to rehearse with a local big band. I agreed on the phone, two weeks out. With traveling for work and playing in two other bands, I plumb forgot. I have never gotten a call from the director again, and that was almost ten years ago. I goofed up and am paying for it.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:45 pm

Kids these days seem to prefer text or Instagram.

E-mail is, like, so 2005.

But then, my wife doesn’t read my emails either.

bigbandbone · Post by **bigbandbone** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:53 pm

I saw it happen out in Vegas. Some guy is late, or doesn't show at all, and doesn't get any more calls FROM ANYBODY.

I hope he learned his lesson or he won't have much of a carreer!

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:09 pm

A while back, a friend, livid when a young alto player failed to show up, slagged the young man in an email - “unprofessional” “sell your horn”, “ never work in this town again” - and copied everyone in the band. Of course.

A few days later, the young man replied, apologized, and explained that his dad had suddenly passed away, requiring him to drop everything and fly to Edmonton.

timothy42b · Post by **timothy42b** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:08 am

I have two thoughts on this one.

1. When you set the rehearsal time, it appears you did not ensure he got the message. Emails go astray, we fatfinger the address or autocorrect sends it wrong or it just disappears into the ether. Whatever method we use, you have to confirm they really got it. One of the bands I play with uses a google group for their schedule and duplicates on their website - it's up to us to know call times and changes. So that's another option.

2. I have given up on local college students when I hire extra help for my church. They don't seem to have the attitude towards making it to rehearsals or performance, on time or even at all. No call no show is frequent, and I do ensure they have multiple cell numbers and multiple email addresses and explicit instructions that in the event of an emergency or running late I'm to get a call. It doesn't happen. When they do appear their skills are good, but they appear clueless about the other requirements if you want to fit in. Maybe their instructors assume everybody knows the expectations and just focus on playing or singing, but clearly this is not true.

quiethorn · Post by **quiethorn** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:28 pm

Email and texting... really showing your age. Should've Snapchatted him.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:29 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:08 am When they do appear their skills are good, but they appear clueless about the other requirements if you want to fit in. Maybe their instructors assume everybody knows the expectations and just focus on playing or singing, but clearly this is not true.

A trombone instructor in college pointed out to me early in my education the the things he thought were necessary to gig and be called back: 1. Play in tune with a good sound, 2. Show up on time with the proper equipment, 3. Be easy to get along with.

I've never forgotten those suggestions and find them to be true. People will forgive a flubbed note, but not a poor sound, a no show, or a jerk (unless of course if it is your band and you're the jerk).

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:01 pm

There are so many proprietary systems, if you want to communicate you have to be versatile on a number of them. If you want work, you have to follow the lead of the people who are hiring you. So if some millennial has to stoop to using email or text, so be it.

All these systems are pretty much the same, even email. You write a message, address it to someone, add attachments, and send it. It's just the branding that's different. I don't get the provincialness of it all.

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:03 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:08 am I have two thoughts on this one.

1. When you set the rehearsal time, it appears you did not ensure he got the message. Emails go astray, we fatfinger the address or autocorrect sends it wrong or it just disappears into the ether. Whatever method we use, you have to confirm they really got it. One of the bands I play with uses a google group for their schedule and duplicates on their website - it's up to us to know call times and changes. So that's another option.

2. I have given up on local college students when I hire extra help for my church. They don't seem to have the attitude towards making it to rehearsals or performance, on time or even at all. No call no show is frequent, and I do ensure they have multiple cell numbers and multiple email addresses and explicit instructions that in the event of an emergency or running late I'm to get a call. It doesn't happen. When they do appear their skills are good, but they appear clueless about the other requirements if you want to fit in. Maybe their instructors assume everybody knows the expectations and just focus on playing or singing, but clearly this is not true.

He got the email. He just didn’t read it for. 2 weeks.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:38 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:01 pm There are so many proprietary systems, if you want to communicate you have to be versatile on a number of them. If you want work, you have to follow the lead of the people who are hiring you. So if some millennial has to stoop to using email or text, so be it.

All these systems are pretty much the same, even email. You write a message, address it to someone, add attachments, and send it. It's just the branding that's different. I don't get the provincialness of it all.

Most Millenials aren't in college anymore. It's Gen Z now!

It can be looked at that you have the gig and are contracting for it, so the player should do what you want/say. But it also is a very stubborn look, for you, if you don't change your ways and evolve with the times.

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:26 pm These days everyone responds differently to different communications

This is very important too. Sometimes the way you communicate isn't necessarily the most efficient way for others. Now should you change the way you communicate? Only if you want to hire this person again. Sometimes as band leaders, bookers or contractors we have to find the most efficient way that works for the people we are trying to play with and hire.

If he's a jerk, don't hire him again. But if he's cool about it and takes the criticism well, then I would ask how he prefers to receive information. Then if he fails after that, you can do the "you'll never work in this town again" speech

As a side note, I work with college kids all the time. I direct/manage a college pep band with a roster of 100+ musicians, and I've noticed over the last few years it's becoming more and more difficult to get responses from them. I almost always get zero confirmation. I've had to evolve as a communicator because even the way I communicate digitally at the age of 33 is WAYYYYYY different than a 18-22 year old kid communicates.

None of this is probably helpful...

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:52 pm

Kids these days don’t read online forums.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:52 pm

Perhaps you should fax him?

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:29 am

I am going with sky writing next time.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:56 am

I have a 23 year old daughter. For whatever reason this generation does not check email. Email is easier but texting is better.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:50 am

I met a gentleman several years ago that worked tech development with younger individuals in Germany (he was located in WI). He stated the only way to get an answer timely from them was through texting; emails slowed things down or were ignored.

BurckhardtS · Post by **BurckhardtS** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:46 pm

As a young guy (23), yeah it's unprofessional, but everyone makes mistakes. I've forgotten about a rehearsal before. I've had older guys not show up for rehearsal just as much too. I can understand your irritation. I'd be curious if he made an honest mistake or if he is systemically unreliable. I'd talk to other people who have worked with him before.

In regards to texting vs email, yes texting is way easier because it goes directly to us. Emails you have to check yourself and often are full of garbage (especially mine), and because of that some of the good stuff gets filtered out.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm

This is not a generational thing. It is about growing up and becoming a responsible person. The media is irrelevant; it is about your attitude and your organizational skills. I know this because when I started college I didn't take obligations seriously enough. Up to that point I had no experience in organizing my time and my obligations. This was before email and even before most people had answering machines. One day I mixed up some dates and I missed a very important gig. That was a big turning point for me. I went out and bought a small datebook that I could keep with me at all times, and I wrote every job in that book and checked it every day to be sure I wasn't forgetting anything I was supposed to do. Some people learn this lesson earlier, and some people never learn it. The ones who never learn are not going to be successful musicians.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:38 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm This is not a generational thing. It is about growing up and becoming a responsible person. The media is irrelevant; it is about your attitude and your organizational skills. I know this because when I started college I didn't take obligations seriously enough. Up to that point I had no experience in organizing my time and my obligations. This was before email and even before most people had answering machines. One day I mixed up some dates and I missed a very important gig. That was a big turning point for me. I went out and bought a small datebook that I could keep with me at all times, and I wrote every job in that book and checked it every day to be sure I wasn't forgetting anything I was supposed to do. Some people learn this lesson earlier, and some people never learn it. The ones who never learn are not going to be successful musicians.

You actually don't get this. I agree about being responsible-I grew up that way too. But this generation in general does not check email. I have so many friends/colleagues who are college professors and they tell me the same stories. Didn't use to be that way. But IT IS now. So deal with it and communicate a different way. We used to call, then we emailed, then we texted, then what's next?? Move on with the times or just stay pissed.

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm

Given that checking email only involves opening an app on your phone, why is it so difficult for anyone? I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:19 pm

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm Given that checking email only involves opening an app on your phone, why is it so difficult for anyone? I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.

Agreed. But you can't make someone do something that they don't do.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:20 pm

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:46 pm In regards to texting vs email, yes texting is way easier because it goes directly to us. Emails you have to check yourself and often are full of garbage (especially mine), and because of that some of the good stuff gets filtered out.

Both email and text work on a phone. Both email and text have to run through a "server" before they get to you. Both email and text (and phone, which is the most annoying) get a lot of spam. Text can work from a computer, but few people do that. I can change my own email, I can't change my own phone number. My phone and my computer both tell me immediately if I have a text, email, linked in message, comment on my blog, what ever.

I think the original point was just that he didn't check his lines of communication when he was in line for a job. So he lost out. Tail doesn't wag the dog. The person hiring for the job decides how you communicate. End of story. Make sure you know how to communicate.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:49 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:20 pm
BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:46 pm In regards to texting vs email, yes texting is way easier because it goes directly to us. Emails you have to check yourself and often are full of garbage (especially mine), and because of that some of the good stuff gets filtered out.
Both email and text work on a phone. Both email and text have to run through a "server" before they get to you. Both email and text (and phone, which is the most annoying) get a lot of spam. Text can work from a computer, but few people do that. I can change my own email, I can't change my own phone number. My phone and my computer both tell me immediately if I have a text, email, linked in message, comment on my blog, what ever.

I think the original point was just that he didn't check his lines of communication when he was in line for a job. So he lost out. Tail doesn't wag the dog. The person hiring for the job decides how you communicate. End of story. Make sure you know how to communicate.

Sounds so simple. Yet it isn't. End of story.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:38 pm
brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm This is not a generational thing. It is about growing up and becoming a responsible person. The media is irrelevant; it is about your attitude and your organizational skills. I know this because when I started college I didn't take obligations seriously enough. Up to that point I had no experience in organizing my time and my obligations. This was before email and even before most people had answering machines. One day I mixed up some dates and I missed a very important gig. That was a big turning point for me. I went out and bought a small datebook that I could keep with me at all times, and I wrote every job in that book and checked it every day to be sure I wasn't forgetting anything I was supposed to do. Some people learn this lesson earlier, and some people never learn it. The ones who never learn are not going to be successful musicians.
You actually don't get this. I agree about being responsible-I grew up that way too. But this generation in general does not check email. I have so many friends/colleagues who are college professors and they tell me the same stories. Didn't use to be that way. But IT IS now. So deal with it and communicate a different way. We used to call, then we emailed, then we texted, then what's next?? Move on with the times or just stay pissed.

That's nonsense. 99% of music contractors use email. If you think that's something that "isn't done" anymore, you will never be a working musician. I don't care what your college professor buddies told you. College is not the real world.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:26 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:19 pm
Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm Given that checking email only involves opening an app on your phone, why is it so difficult for anyone? I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.
Agreed. But you can't make someone do something that they don't do.

You don't make anyone do anything. They grow up and learn responsibly, or they remain a child for the rest of their life. That's on them.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.

This is why you don’t hire people that have androids

And for the record, with the use of iCloud, Dropbox or google drive, you can get 1000’s of PDFs to someone’s phone by texting them a link.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:57 pm

I think I can honestly say no one ever had difficulty contacting me for a gig.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:53 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
This is why you don’t hire people that have androids

Wow - that's pretty harsh. I'm surprised you didn't say "OK Boomer!"

Doubler · Post by **Doubler** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:18 pm

Ability without responsibility results in a career that entails memorizing the sentence: "Can you spare a dollar?"

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:23 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:38 pm
You actually don't get this. I agree about being responsible-I grew up that way too. But this generation in general does not check email. I have so many friends/colleagues who are college professors and they tell me the same stories. Didn't use to be that way. But IT IS now. So deal with it and communicate a different way. We used to call, then we emailed, then we texted, then what's next?? Move on with the times or just stay pissed.
That's nonsense. 99% of music contractors use email. If you think that's something that "isn't done" anymore, you will never be a working musician. I don't care what your college professor buddies told you. College is not the real world.

Maybe they do in YOUR world; in MY world, where > 75% of the musicians that my church (membership: 563, average attendance: ~750) regularly hires are undergrads at Duke, UNC, Campbell Univ, NC Central, or NC State (for the record, we pay 125% of scale, regardless of AFM membership status), the overwhelming majority of whom don't use email unless prompted by a "Check your email" text; and even then, more often than not, they'll reply by text rather than by email. From conversations with music directors of other Triangle area churches, they're seeing the same thing, and not just from undergrad and grad students.

Oh ... the Grad and Career (recent college grads to ~36 cohort) minister says he's switched to using group texts instead of email to communicate with his "flock," because 90% of them say they don't check their email with any regularity. That's "real world" behavior as self-reported by 300-some young professionals in fields ranging from applied medicine to law to engineering to biomedical research to IT to international finance to multimedia production to education to marketing to retail sales to skilled trades to you name it.

In the "real world," behavior evolves over time, and "real world" norms and practices need to evolve along with them. If you think trends in the wider world don't and/or won't affect how working musicians are hired going forward, you're not living in the real world.

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.
And for the record, with the use of iCloud, Dropbox or google drive, you can get 1000’s of PDFs to someone’s phone by texting them a link.

Yup. Work smarter, not harder. Adapt or die.

Schlitz · Post by **Schlitz** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:37 pm

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:47 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:34 pm
Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:45 pm I can't send a pdf part or other file attachment by text. And it is a lot easier to send a bulk email to a group of 5 people than a group text.
This is why you don’t hire people that have androids

And for the record, with the use of iCloud, Dropbox or google drive, you can get 1000’s of PDFs to someone’s phone by texting them a link.

Ha - I have an Android. And a cheap one at that. My $200 Moto G6 works just fine. But to put music on these sites, at some point it helps to use an actual computer rather than just a phone.

I had not envisioned this rant getting so much traffic. I did en up finding another horn player, but I did that because I didn’t think the first guy could do the show in 2 rehearsals, not because I was still mad at him.