Baroque tuning

[8parktoollover]

I'm learning the Handel concerto and as a purist, I wanted to tune my trombone to baroque tuning but the most I could pull my tuning slide out on my bach 42 was to half a tone and not a full tone. Do they make some kind of extender or does this just not exist?

[harrisonreed]

I'm learning the Handel concerto and as a purist, I wanted to tune my trombone to baroque tuning but the most I could pull my tuning slide out on my bach 42 was to half a tone and not a full tone. Do they make some kind of extender or does this just not exist?

Trombones haven't actually changed pitch all that much. Surviving examples from the barowue period are, from what I read, essentially the same pitch as more modern Bb and Eb instruments. They just called the notes different names, or read the music transposed. No need for a crook or tuning slide.

There are experts here, like Maximilien, who know everything about it, but I believe the purist would be confronted with the same sheet of music, and play it on what is essentially a Bb trombone, transposing to get it to the correct tuning convention.

Modern publications of Bach pieces, for example, come transposed like this for some HIP orchestras.

[tbonesullivan]

Well, if you want to really be a purist, it was originally for Oboe, and pitched in G minor. In F minor, it pretty much already IS in the original Key.

[Posaunus]

Will your orchestra (or accompanist) be playing in "baroque" tuning?

A Bach 42 is hardly a baroque (or even baroque-compatible) instrument!
No "purist" would accept such an instrument for playing Handel.

Suggestion: play it in A440 tuning and enjoy the music

[8parktoollover]

Will your orchestra (or accompanist) be playing in "baroque" tuning?

A Bach 42 is hardly a baroque (or even baroque-compatible) instrument!
No "purist" would accept such an instrument for playing Handel.

Suggestion: play it in A440 tuning and enjoy the music

That is what I uave and I won't be performing it. I was just wondering if such a thing existed.

[LeTromboniste]

Now, first I just want to say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with borrowing music/playing transcriptions, especially on modern trombone (on sackbut I might actually have more of an objection in this case, depending on how it's represented, based on the fact it is extremely unlikely it would have been done with an oboe concerto at the time) and if you like the music and want to play it, by all means do, but if you're a purist, pitch should be the least of your worry. Like has been said, the piece is already in the wrong key to start with, it's also in the wrong octave, which may or may not create counterpoint issues. You're already playing an instrument that is miles away from a baroque instrument, and most importantly, playing an oboe piece on trombone which at that time and place would have been quite unlikely. I also assume you're not playing it with techniques and concepts of sound and articulation that are based on historical treatises and pedagogy. To specialists of early music these are all concerns that come much before the pitch. I would suggest that reading some historical material on ornamentation or articulations or phrasing and then using this piece as an opportunity to practice applying the concepts you've read about would be a more insightful use of your time than trying to find a way to play it in "baroque pitch".

Now to the question on a more theoretical level, if it had been played on trombone at the time, the pitch would have depended on what part of the world it would have been played in (there was no pitch reference, pitch was all over the place really). But most likely the trombone would have been at a different pitch than the orchestra and transposing. Trombones at the time (except in Vienna/Austria) were usually still in A, at a pitch level ("choir pitch") more or less a half step higher than 440. That is to say they had about the same length of tubing and absolute fundamental pitch as a modern trombone but were conceived of differently. Meanwhile the ensemble and harpsichord accompanying our hypothetical soloist would be tuned at "chamber pitch", which is more or less a half step below 440. The two are thus usually a whole step apart, meaning the trombonist would have been transposing down a step (I.e. Playing the piece in F rather than G) to match the pitch of the ensemble, or possibly using a whole tone crook to tune the instrument down a step.

So-called "415" tuning slides or extensions are available for sackbut replicas today but historically if they existed, weren't a solution for this problem. I don't know of anyone that makes them for modern trombones. It would probably mess up the tuning quite a bit because it would require adding cylindrical tubing to the conical tuning slide and bell section (not a problem on historical instruments because they are cylindrical untiI after the bow.

I posted a video last week in the media subforum where you might notice that I am in fact using tuning slide extensions (disclaimer, neither the construction of these extensions nor the fact that I have a tuning slide in the first place are historical). In that case, though, the goal was not to tune the instrument down to 415 and use Bb slide positions, but rather to be at 440 and use the same positions that I use at 466, with A in 1st position.

[8parktoollover]

Now, first I just want to say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with borrowing music/playing transcriptions, especially on modern trombone (on sackbut I might actually have more of an objection in this case, depending on how it's represented, based on the fact it is extremely unlikely it would have been done with an oboe concerto at the time) and if you like the music and want to play it, by all means do, but if you're a purist, pitch should be the least of your worry. Like has been said, the piece is already in the wrong key to start with, it's also in the wrong octave, which may or may not create counterpoint issues. You're already playing an instrument that is miles away from a baroque instrument, and most importantly, playing an oboe piece on trombone which at that time and place would have been quite unlikely. I also assume you're not playing it with techniques and concepts of sound and articulation that are based on historical treatises and pedagogy. To specialists of early music these are all concerns that come much before the pitch. I would suggest that reading some historical material on ornamentation or articulations or phrasing and then using this piece as an opportunity to practice applying the concepts you've read about would be a more insightful use of your time than trying to find a way to play it in "baroque pitch".

Now to the question on a more theoretical level, if it had been played on trombone at the time, the pitch would have depended on what part of the world it would have been played in (there was no pitch reference, pitch was all over the place really). But most likely the trombone would have been at a different pitch than the orchestra and transposing. Trombones at the time (except in Vienna/Austria) were usually still in A, at a pitch level ("choir pitch") more or less a half step higher than 440. That is to say they had about the same length of tubing and absolute fundamental pitch as a modern trombone but were conceived of differently. Meanwhile the ensemble and harpsichord accompanying our hypothetical soloist would be tuned at "chamber pitch", which is more or less a half step below 440. The two are thus usually a whole step apart, meaning the trombonist would have been transposing down a step (I.e. Playing the piece in F rather than G) to match the pitch of the ensemble, or possibly using a whole tone crook to tune the instrument down a step.

So-called "415" tuning slides or extensions are available for sackbut replicas today but historically if they existed, weren't a solution for this problem. I don't know of anyone that makes them for modern trombones. It would probably mess up the tuning quite a bit because it would require adding cylindrical tubing to the conical tuning slide and bell section (not a problem on historical instruments because they are cylindrical untiI after the bow.

I posted a video last week in the media subforum where you might notice that I am in fact using tuning slide extensions (disclaimer, neither the construction of these extensions nor the fact that I have a tuning slide in the first place are historical). In that case, though, the goal was not to tune the instrument down to 415 and use Bb slide positions, but rather to be at 440 and use the same positions that I use at 466, with A in 1st position.

I see what you mean. If I were to perform it would you recomend to use a piano or a harpsichord?

[timothy42b]

I see what you mean. If I were to perform it would you recomend to use a piano or a harpsichord?

I have zero knowledge of historical practice.

However I have a personal opinion that trombone is best accompanied by anything other than piano. There is something about the sonic combination that just doesn't work; we trombone players mostly ignore it but other audiences find it boring.

[LeTromboniste]

I see what you mean. If I were to perform it would you recomend to use a piano or a harpsichord?

That's tricky. If there's a sonic disconnect between trombone and piano, it is arguably worst between (modern) trombone and harpsichord. Plus you'd need a really loud harpsichord and fairly small venue for the balance to be right. The harpsichord is also not so good for playing a reduction of an orchestral score (it's really not what its purpose was). I'd be tempted to say that a piano isn't really further away from a harpsichord than your Bach 42 is from a baroque oboe, so you might as well go with piano. Then again, this style of baroque music sounds very wrong to me on piano. So I don't know...

Another thing to keep in mind if you ever play with harpsichord: equal temperament just doesn't really sound good on a harpsichord (a piano is much more forgiving because of all the extra resonance). You should have the harpsichord tuned to a nicer temperament, but then that also means you have to get used to play in that temperament as well.

[8parktoollover]

I see what you mean. If I were to perform it would you recomend to use a piano or a harpsichord?

That's tricky. If there's a sonic disconnect between trombone and piano, it is arguably worst between (modern) trombone and harpsichord. Plus you'd need a really loud harpsichord and fairly small venue for the balance to be right. The harpsichord is also not so good for playing a reduction of an orchestral score (it's really not what its purpose was). I'd be tempted to say that a piano isn't really further away from a harpsichord than your Bach 42 is from a baroque oboe, so you might as well go with piano. Then again, this style of baroque music sounds very wrong to me on piano. So I don't know...

Another thing to keep in mind if you ever play with harpsichord: equal temperament just doesn't really sound good on a harpsichord (a piano is much more forgiving because of all the extra resonance). You should have the harpsichord tuned to a nicer temperament, but then that also means you have to get used to play in that temperament as well.

This all makes me think maybe it's best not to perform pieces like this.

[LeTromboniste]

This all makes me think maybe it's best not to perform pieces like this.

It's just tricky to perform them and have a convincing result. The same is true of the Wagenseil and Albrechtsberger concertos or the solo trombone movements in L.Mozart and M.Haydn. They're great pieces to play with orchestra, but they really don't sound that good with just a keyboard instrument. I don't think I've ever heard a convincing rendition of those with keyboard-only accompaniment (I mean, I can appreciate the trombone playing as a trombonist, but putting myself in the shoes of a non-trombonist...nah, it's not really interesting to listen to), and I certainly haven't ever had fun playing them with keyboard. It's easier with baroque pieces that don't originally have orchestral accompaniment, i.e. sonatas and suites, then the harpsichord can be played idiomatically and you're not trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[8parktoollover]

This all makes me think maybe it's best not to perform pieces like this.

It's just tricky to perform them and have a convincing result. The same is true of the Wagenseil and Albrechtsberger concertos or the solo trombone movements in L.Mozart and M.Haydn. They're great pieces to play with orchestra, but they really don't sound that good with just a keyboard instrument. I don't think I've ever heard a convincing rendition of those with keyboard-only accompaniment (I mean, I can appreciate the trombone playing as a trombonist, but putting myself in the shoes of a non-trombonist...nah, it's not really interesting to listen to), and I certainly haven't ever had fun playing them with keyboard. It's easier with baroque pieces that don't originally have orchestral accompaniment, i.e. sonatas and suites, then the harpsichord can be played idiomatically and you're not trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Considering I probably won't be able to get an orchestra anytime soon maybe it's best to just play something more modern and practice the handel at home. And anyways, I find the piece itself to be a bit underwhelming.

[timothy42b]

I think trombone and organ can work with careful registration. I thought harpsichord would be a nice contrast but when I tried I didn't like it.

[LeTromboniste]

Considering I probably won't be able to get an orchestra anytime soon maybe it's best to just play something more modern and practice the handel at home. And anyways, I find the piece itself to be a bit underwhelming.

It's certainly worth practicing for your own pleasure and learning.

Easier pieces to perform convincingly with only harpsichord include other standard baroque transcriptions from bassoon and cello works often played on modern trombone (Marcello, Telemann, etc), and maybe more interestingly, works originally for trombone or open instrumentation where trombone was a possible or likely choice, which often work even better with organ (Cesare's La Hieronyma, the anonymous, so-called "St Thomas", Sonata, Frescobaldi canzonas, diminution pieces of Ortiz, Bassano, Rognoni and others, etc).

[8parktoollover]

Considering I probably won't be able to get an orchestra anytime soon maybe it's best to just play something more modern and practice the handel at home. And anyways, I find the piece itself to be a bit underwhelming.

It's certainly worth practicing for your own pleasure and learning.

Easier pieces to perform convincingly with harpsichord only include other standard baroque transcriptions from bassoon and cello works often played on modern trombone (Marcello, Telemann, etc), and maybe more interestingly, works originally for trombone or open instrumentation where trombone was a possible or likely choice, which often work even better with organ (Cesare's La Hieronyma, the anonymous, so-called "St Thomas", Sonata, Frescobaldi canzonas, diminution pieces of Ortiz, Bassano, Rognoni and others, etc).

Thanks for the advice