Alternatives to Lassus Trombone

[brassmedic]

Please - don't discuss Lassus Trombone here. There is already a thread about that. But I would like to talk about other pieces we can play that show off the uniqueness of the trombone. Please comment if you think anything here would be inappropriate, but please don't talk about Lassus Trombone. Doug Yeo has great suggestions here: https://thelasttrombone.com/2020/07/06/ ... -trombone/

Another piece I thought of is Stravinsky Pulcinella. Fun glisses in it, and I have never performed it where I didn't literally hear chuckles from the audience. There's another "glissy" tune that I like, but I don't know the name. Can anyone help? It's the tune that Daffy Duck plays on the trombone in the cartoon "Ducking the Devil". I believe it's a march, but I don't know the title or composer. Other ideas?

[Doug Elliott]

I would bet that string players don't spend 1 second thinking about how they can demonstrate the uniqueness of glissing on a fretless instrument. Of course they use portamentos... occasionally... so do I. For smoothness, not for chuckles.

I'm really not sure why we "need" to demonstrate that sort of playing at all. When I hear a classical player trying to play in a "jazzy" style, it involves totally inappropriate glisses and scoops that just sound sloppy... And they think that's what jazz is about. I thought we were trying to get away from caricatures.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but it offends me.

[Finetales]

I'm really not sure why we "need" to demonstrate that sort of playing at all.

It works wonders for getting young kids interested in the trombone.

For "serious" performance I'm good without it.

[cmcslide]

For the young kids, anything where we can demonstrate a gliss or slide vibrato might work. The visual of the slide is going to sell it. If you just need a few bars of something for a kids demo, how about the solo from Buckaroo Holiday, or Bolero, or even Getting Sentimental Over You, with a pronounced slide vibrato? Pulcinella is a great choice for that too. Obviously, you need something more than that for a community band concert or something...

[Schlitz]

Slava! , Tiger Rag , Hoop de Doo (Oktoberfest), Saints (Moffit/Soundpower). You’re just now building alternatives?

[CalgaryTbone]

I've played a couple of "76Trombones" arrangements that have glisses - easy to incorporate your own version of that as a demo tune.

JS

[BGuttman]

i like the ones Doug Yeo put in his 2nd article.

I agree that Pulchinella is a great way to demonstrate glissandi. also the trombone solo from "Buckaroo Holiday".

Without needing to gliss, just playing the Imperial March from Star Wars will show a gleam of recognition.

[brassmedic]

I would bet that string players don't spend 1 second thinking about how they can demonstrate the uniqueness of glissing on a fretless instrument. Of course they use portamentos... occasionally... so do I. For smoothness, not for chuckles.

I'm really not sure why we "need" to demonstrate that sort of playing at all. When I hear a classical player trying to play in a "jazzy" style, it involves totally inappropriate glisses and scoops that just sound sloppy... And they think that's what jazz is about. I thought we were trying to get away from caricatures.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but it offends me.

The kids like it, Doug, and it shows them that the trombone is different from the other brass instruments, so they learn something. Also, the glissando is not the exclusive property of the jazz idiom. I don't believe I said we "need" to. Go ahead and play what you want, but you don't need to take a dump in my thread.

[brassmedic]

Slava! , Tiger Rag , Hoop de Doo (Oktoberfest), Saints (Moffit/Soundpower). You’re just now building alternatives?

Can I say something here? I'm trying to have a positive thread here for a change. If you don't have a positive contribution to make, and you just want to criticize, how about you save it for something else?

[Doug Elliott]

Well... OK then I'll stay out of it.

[brassmedic]

Without needing to gliss, just playing the Imperial March from Star Wars will show a gleam of recognition.

Yes! I have used that many times. The kids love it.

[Pre59]

I would bet that string players don't spend 1 second thinking about how they can demonstrate the uniqueness of glissing on a fretless instrument. Of course they use portamentos... occasionally... so do I. For smoothness, not for chuckles.

I'm really not sure why we "need" to demonstrate that sort of playing at all. When I hear a classical player trying to play in a "jazzy" style, it involves totally inappropriate glisses and scoops that just sound sloppy... And they think that's what jazz is about. I thought we were trying to get away from caricatures.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but it offends me.

Thank you Doug, I couldn't have expressed it better. These "comedy" pieces shame our instrument, and have helped the gliss to become hard baked into the public's perception it.

[JohnL]

I'm afraid the value (or lack thereof) of "trombone novelty" pieces is a topic that's never going to see a consensus opinion. They're a staple of the community band concert in the park, but not really fodder for the serious musician.

Looking through the public domain works that are available on bandmusicpdf.org:

If you want a "plug-in" replacement, Fred Jewell's "Trombone Blues" would be my first choice. Barnhouse has a modern edition; it'll cost you a few bucks, but having full-size parts and a full score are probably worth the cost for most bands.

I'd steer clear of N. C. Davis's "Mr. Trombonology", "Oh Slip It Man", and "Miss Trombonism"; they look to be Fillmore knock-offs with similarly problematic subtext.

"Holton Special" by J. F. Galuska is another possibility. Not too heavy on the smears.

There's also "March Slurrioso" ("A Trombone Intermezzo") by George Rosenkrans.

[FOSSIL]

Slava! , Tiger Rag , Hoop de Doo (Oktoberfest), Saints (Moffit/Soundpower). You’re just now building alternatives?

Brad, I think what Schitz was trying to say is that outside the USA, these Filimore pieces have long been dropped, if indeed they were ever used at all. In the UK we have our own cliche trombone works.... The Joker, The Acrobat etc.
I would be quite happy to see these extinguished too, not because they are racist but because they are trash.
Do we really have to pander to a Music Hall stereotype with our instruments?
Far too many people think of the trombone as a joke...mainly because of these novelty pieces.

Chris

[andym]

JohnL, you seem to have come to a different conclusions about Davis’ pieces than Doug Yeo. Could you explain your reasons?

[Basbasun]

Well, there are lots of tunes including glissandos. I Europe "Bayrische Polka" is often used to to get kids interested.

[LeTromboniste]

As a trombonist now, and from early on after I started playing, I would agree with everyone who says these pieces aren't really good in the first place, and that they probably contribute to make our instrument "a joke" (although that contribution is probably tiny compared to that from cartoons and movies and advertisement clichés, and there's not much we can do about that).

That being said, the very first wind band concert I attended (and probably the first classical concert I attended where I was interested and attentive), they played Lassus Trombone. It made me want to play the trombone because it was different and had a unique voice in the band, and that piece is the reason I chose the trombone when I went to that school a few years later. I'm not sure that I'd be a professional musician today had I not heard that "stupid" novelty piece which triggered the initial spark of interest.

[ArbanRubank]

The piece that hooked me as a youngster was the trombone trio "Slippery Gentlemen". It has glisses, but I think it was the harmony that told me trombones could sound like solid gold.

This brought back a memory of when I was a senior in high school. Our band performed for an elementary school assembly. Each section had to get up in front and demonstrate their instrument. I played "Tiger Rag", replete with glisses and flutter-tongues. Near as I could tell (and remember), It was received 2nd to the drum section that did a very nice demo (even I was impressed).

[timothy42b]

I didn't like any of Doug Yeo's suggestions for various reasons. Well, I'll say it out loud. They require a much higher level of skill than the benefit they provide - they are trombone player pleasers but not audience pleasers. IMO.

I see Doug Elliott's point too.

But there are some things audiences like that feature trombones more. We're mostly a background instrument, with good reason, in those ensembles but you need some varieties to keep an audience awake.

So here are a few thoughts off the top of my head:

Old Oaken Bucket.

My absolute favorite concert in the park trombone feature. It requires a very solid trombone section and a band willing to be quiet enough to let the trombones be heard, and I've never personally met both requirements at the same time. But if you could pull it off this would be the one. Minimal use of gliss.

Bayrische Polka

Danielle plays the snot out of this one. This is playable by most of us, it's easier than Blue Bells and far more interesting.. Lots of triple tonguing. Again you need a band that can do dynamics, again that's a rarity with amateurs. If I play it nobody's touching my slide!

Frolic for Trombone

I've played this as a trombone feature with a local band and it came off okay, this does not require quite the skill level of the above. Fortunately. This seems to be a UK standard.

[JohnL]

JohnL, you seem to have come to a different conclusions about Davis’ pieces than Doug Yeo. Could you explain your reasons?

Just look at the titles and subtitles...

"Oh Slip it Man"; "A Trombone Novelty"
"Mr. Trombonology; "A Characteristic Trombone Smear" and "The Son of 'Oh Slip it Man'"
"Miss Trombonology; "A Slippery Tune" and "The Grand daughter of 'Oh Slip it Man'" and the daughter of 'Mr. Trombonology'".
"Master Trombone"

I'm afraid they just hew too close to the feel of Fillmore's "Trombone Family" for my comfort.

There is Davis' "Trombone Francais", but that might get you in trouble, too.

[brassmedic]

Slava! , Tiger Rag , Hoop de Doo (Oktoberfest), Saints (Moffit/Soundpower). You’re just now building alternatives?

Brad, I think what Schitz was trying to say is that outside the USA, these Filimore pieces have long been dropped, if indeed they were ever used at all. In the UK we have our own cliche trombone works.... The Joker, The Acrobat etc.
I would be quite happy to see didn'textinguished too, not because they are racist but because they are trash.
Do we really have to pander to a Music Hall stereotype with our instruments?
Far too many people think of the trombone as a joke...mainly because of these novelty pieces.

Chris

I didn't say it had to be a novelty piece. Do you consider Pulcinella a novelty piece?

Maybe you've never done "kiddie concerts". I can tell you if you get too esoteric with your material you will very quickly lose your audience. Maybe you think you proved you're a real artist who refuses to pander, but you also bored some little kids to tears.

[andym]

JohnL, Thank you for explaining. I think Doug Yeo’s point was that they are a family of pieces but written and published by Black Americans without reference to racist stereotypes in the subtitles or the use of racist imagery in the marketing. He does discuss the use of the word master but takes it in a vein away from slavery. I wonder if we could be in danger of throwing out a genre (families of songs) due to a racist appropriation of the genre. But I would need to know more about the history of families of songs to fully understand that.

[FOSSIL]

Brad, I think what Schitz was trying to say is that outside the USA, these Filimore pieces have long been dropped, if indeed they were ever used at all. In the UK we have our own cliche trombone works.... The Joker, The Acrobat etc.
I would be quite happy to see didn'textinguished too, not because they are racist but because they are trash.
Do we really have to pander to a Music Hall stereotype with our instruments?
Far too many people think of the trombone as a joke...mainly because of these novelty pieces.

Chris

I didn't say it had to be a novelty piece. Do you consider Pulcinella a novelty piece?

Maybe you've never done "kiddie concerts". I can tell you if you get too esoteric with your material you will very quickly lose your audience. Maybe you think you proved you're a real artist who refuses to pander, but you also bored some little kids to tears.

Don't make assumptions about me.
I've done plenty of kiddies concerts, both as a player and presenter.
If you think you need to play 3rd rate music to keep kids happy, you seriously underestimate their listening abilities.
We can serve them better.

Chris

[Kbiggs]

An alternative: “Trombone King” by Karl Laurence King. It’s a march, no smears, but double-tonguing on diatonic and chromatic passages. Probably beyond a middle-schooler’s technique, but a possibility for high school.

King also wrote “Barnum and Bailey’s Favorite,” along with a lot of marches post-Sousa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_King

Thanks, Trombone King!

[Pre59]

Blades of Toledo (Trevor Sharp) played here by the composers band.

[Schlitz]

Slava! , Tiger Rag , Hoop de Doo (Oktoberfest), Saints (Moffit/Soundpower). You’re just now building alternatives?

Brad, I think what Schitz was trying to say is that outside the USA, these Filimore pieces have long been dropped, if indeed they were ever used at all. In the UK we have our own cliche trombone works.... The Joker, The Acrobat etc.
I would be quite happy to see these extinguished too, not because they are racist but because they are trash.
Do we really have to pander to a Music Hall stereotype with our instruments?
Far too many people think of the trombone as a joke...mainly because of these novelty pieces.

Chris

Correct. Thank you for the UK perspective.

[yeodoug]

JohnL, you seem to have come to a different conclusions about Davis’ pieces than Doug Yeo. Could you explain your reasons?

Just look at the titles and subtitles...

"Oh Slip it Man"; "A Trombone Novelty"
"Mr. Trombonology; "A Characteristic Trombone Smear" and "The Son of 'Oh Slip it Man'"
"Miss Trombonology; "A Slippery Tune" and "The Grand daughter of 'Oh Slip it Man'" and the daughter of 'Mr. Trombonology'".
"Master Trombone"

I'm afraid they just hew too close to the feel of Fillmore's "Trombone Family" for my comfort.

There is Davis' "Trombone Francais", but that might get you in trouble, too.

JohnL, I believe your characterization of the titles and subtitles of Nathaniel Davis' trombone glissando pieces is not quite accurate, but, of course, you are entitled to your opinion and interpretation.

As I explained when I discussed Davis' music in my article, and as others have noted here, his subtitles have no racially charged content. Here are his five trombone family pieces (with subtitles by Davis), as I wrote about them in my most recent article:

Oh Slip It Man (1916) — Trombone novelty. That heavy dose of thunder on parade. [NOTE: The word “slip” derives from a late nineteenth and early twentieth century slang word for the trombone, sliphorn, that referred to the trombone’s slippery slide.]

Mr. Trombonology (1917) — A characteristic trombone smear. The son of Oh Slip It Man. One great flash of lightening on parade.

Miss Trombonism (1918)—A Slippery Tune. The granddaughter of “Oh Slip It Man” and daughter of Mr. Trombonlogy.

Master Trombone (1919) [NOTE: The word “master” is an honorific title for boys and young unmarried men, a male equivalent in in some quarters of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century to “Miss” for females. Given what we can see in all of Davis' subtitles and the fact that this piece follows Miss Trombonism in the series, this is not code for "massah."]

Trombone Francais (1921)—Trombone novelty.

Davis' subtitles are not in dialect as is the case for Fillmore's subtitles, nor do they make any reference at all to race.



In an advertisement I found for Mr. Trombonology that offered the piece for sale through Davis' own company (Billboard, May 5, 1917, image above), you don't find even a hint of racially charge language or a nod to minstrelsy. My apologies for the poor quality of the scan.



A few years later, when Davis' music was then being sold by Carl Fischer, an ad in The Musical Messenger (May 1921, image above) carried some new subtitles that Fischer added to the advertising copy. Fischer's subtitles drift toward minstrelsy in its advertising for "Wickedest - Meanest Trombone Agony!" It's clear that Fischer added these titles—which the composers did not intend themselves—when we look at the publications themselves which don't contain Fischer's subtitles.



Look, for instance, at the music for Lew C. Smith's Two Thomas Cats (published by Smith & Phinney but assigned to Carl Fischer in 1901, above). The subtitle is very different than that which appears in the Carl Fischer advertisement.



The same can be said for Arthur Pryor's Razzazza Mazzazza (published by Carl Fischer in 1905, above). Pryor doesn't have any subtitle, but Fischer gave it one that might raise a few eyebrows.



Based on its title, I don't think I'd be keen to play to Pryor's Canhanibalmo Rag (1911, above) which was published by Fischer, but we can't blame the inflammatory subtitle that Fischer includes in the advertisement on Pryor.

In light of this, I think that it is not fair to blame blame Davis (or any composer) for the marketing language that others used in his name if we don't have evidence that the marketing copy came directly from the composer. In this case, the record is silent and given Davis' own subtitles, I think he deserves more than the benefit of the doubt.



On the other hand, it's worth noting that in this same May 1921 issue of The Musical Messenger (which was a regular publication of Fillmore Music House), an advertisement (above) for Fillmore's The Trombone Family appeared with the same racially charged blackface image that appeared on the music's cover for over 80 years. We never see any of this kind of imagery in advertising for Davis' pieces.

And, I would argue, Davis' pieces have some charm. Yes, they are of a type, and if the type isn't interesting to you, well, fine. But I think, if you spend some time looking at the pieces, that you may find them to be worthy alternatives to Fillmore's The Trombone Family if you're looking to perform a piece by an African American composer written in the ragtime/trombone/glissando/"jazzing" genre. Whether the entire genre is good/useful/necessary/a good way to represent the trombone is a completely different—but important—question, and that question is being vetted a bit in this thread. It's a good and worthwhile discussion. However, all of this is to say that I think that Davis' pieces, while cut from a similar musical cloth as Fillmore's The Trombone Family, come from a very different place when we consider the issue of racial stereotyping.

-Douglas Yeo

[WGWTR180]

It really blows my mind how one poster can insult/demean 2 musicians on here that have a great deal of musicianship and integrity. (No I'm not speaking of Doug Yeo as this post placement might indicate).

[brassmedic]

I didn't say it had to be a novelty piece. Do you consider Pulcinella a novelty piece?

Maybe you've never done "kiddie concerts". I can tell you if you get too esoteric with your material you will very quickly lose your audience. Maybe you think you proved you're a real artist who refuses to pander, but you also bored some little kids to tears.

Don't make assumptions about me.
I've done plenty of kiddies concerts, both as a player and presenter.
If you think you need to play 3rd rate music to keep kids happy, you seriously underestimate their listening abilities.
We can serve them better.

Chris

That's a strawman if I ever saw one. Who said anything about playing "3rd rate music"?

[brassmedic]

It really blows my mind how one poster can insult/demean 2 musicians on here that have a great deal of musicianship and integrity. (No I'm not speaking of Doug Yeo as this post placement might indicate).

It really blows my mind that I just tried to ask a simple question: What might be some good things to play other than Lassus Trombone?, and instead of giving good suggestions, half the people here accuse me of "demeaning" or "shaming" the trombone, and criticize me for not coming up with alternatives earlier. I have plenty of alternatives, I just thought it might be interesting to hear ideas from other people, not rebukes and dismissive posturing. And this after all the awful things that were said in the Lassus Trombone thread. And it's not just those threads. I've always been afraid to post anywhere other than Instruments or Repair, because this kind of thing always happens. This just encapsulates what's wrong with Trombone Chat. Too many people here who feel they have to make everything contentious. This is why most of the pros left.

I think I need to take a break from this place.

[FOSSIL]

It really blows my mind how one poster can insult/demean 2 musicians on here that have a great deal of musicianship and integrity. (No I'm not speaking of Doug Yeo as this post placement might indicate).

It really blows my mind that I just tried to ask a simple question: What might be some good things to play other than Lassus Trombone?, and instead of giving good suggestions, half the people here accuse me of "demeaning" or "shaming" the trombone, and criticize me for not coming up with alternatives earlier. I have plenty of alternatives, I just thought it might be interesting to hear ideas from other people, not rebukes and dismissive posturing. And this after all the awful things that were said in the Lassus Trombone thread. And it's not just those threads. I've always been afraid to post anywhere other than Instruments or Repair, because this kind of thing always happens. This just encapsulates what's wrong with Trombone Chat. Too many people here who feel they have to make everything contentious. This is why most of the pros left.

I think I need to take a break from this place.

Brad, I think you need to take a break full stop. Re- read this thread and your reactions. Are you being reasonable and logical ? Is this simple ? Many think not.... we are at a social crossroads...possibly a moment of historical change.... are we to perpetuate historical cliches allbeit avoiding direct racial slurs ? Why ?
Strawman ? Strike the match if you want.
You had better stand back in case you are flammable yourself.

[JohnL]

JohnL, I believe your characterization of the titles and subtitles of Nathaniel Davis' trombone glissando pieces is not quite accurate, but, of course, you are entitled to your opinion and interpretation.

I would be afraid that members of the audience would conflate the Davis's trombone family with Fillmore's. All it takes is one person complaining and we're hung out to dry.

If I thought I (or rather, the person doing the announcing for the concert) could impart to the audience the historical context of Davis as a composer and the owner of his own publishing company, I'd run with it. I'm always up for playing forgotten works from that era. But trying to do so in the sort of concert-in-the-park environment that I normally play in?

[odiofish]

I think someone already mentioned Tiger Rag, but the other one that comes to mind that I haven't seen yet is an arrangement of Liechtensteiner Polka that has some gliss' and features the trombones. These are both community level pieces that could probably fit that same bill.

[yeodoug]

I've been working over the last several days to do a deep dive to find more about Nathaniel Davis.

Today, a number of needles in several haystacks all surfaced and I've been able to put together a short biography of Davis. His is an interesting story and I'm on the trail for more information. I managed to find census records, military service records, marriage certificate, obituary, copyright notices, and more. There is more to his story, for sure, and I'll continue working on this.

And here's this: Gordon Cherry has just published Aaron Hettinga's arrangement of Davis' Miss Trombonism. I think it's a great arrangement of an attractive piece and Aaron is at work on arranging the other four of Davis' trombone smear pieces. You can see it here:

https://cherryclassics.com/products/dav ... c70c&_ss=r

Here's my short bio of Davis:

=====

Nathaniel Cleophas Davis (1888-1972)

African American trombonist, composer, and band leader Nathaniel Cleophas Davis (also known as Nathan Davis) was born in Tennessee on August 14, 1888. By 1914, he had moved to Nashville where he directed the band at the Tennessee School for the Blind. Along with his brothers, Otis B. and Clarence M. Davis, he established a music publishing business and a music school, variously known as the Traveling Conservatory of Music and the Davis Band and Orchestra School. He described himself as a self-employed band organizer and school teacher on his military service registration card, completed on June 4, 1917. Among his musical compositions were five trombone features for band in ragtime style which included Oh, Slip It Man! (1916), Mr. Trombonology (1917) and Miss Trombonism (1918). He served as a musician with the U. S. Army’s 368th Infantry Regiment, part of the 92nd Infantry Division, during World War I. He began basic training at Fort Meade, Maryland and the Regiment was shipped to France on June 7, 1918 where it trained under French military leaders. Comprised of black enlisted men and junior officers, the 368th's regimental and divisional officers were all white. The 368th suffered heavy casualties in September, 1918, in a battle near Binarville, France, shortly before the Armistice on November 11, 1918. The Regiment was shipped back to the United States in February, 1919 where it was demobilized in New York City on March 7, 1919.

Upon returning from France, Nathaniel Davis continued writing ragtime trombone features including Master Trombone (1919) and a tribute to his wartime service in France, Trombone Francais (1921). His trombone features were published by his own company as well as C. G. Conn and Carl Fischer. In 1920, Nathaniel Davis began playing with P. G. Lowery’s Band which was the first all-black band to play for the Ringling Brothers & Barnum and Bailey’s Circus sideshows. His composition, Mr. Trombonology, was a featured work in the band’s performances. Davis married Edith Rose Bonner in December, 1926 and in 1949, he wrote music to a song, Our Lady of Liberty, with lyrics by Bernice Stokes; it was published by W. E. Goldsberry & Co., Los Angeles. Nathaniel Davis died in Atlanta, Georgia, on December 19, 1972 at the age of 84 and is buried in South View Cemetery, Atlanta.

[andym]

That’s fascinating, Doug. It makes me particularly curious about “Trombone Francais.” I hope it is one of the pieces that gets arranged. It would make for educational program notes and comments during a recital. I found the band arrangement on bandmusicpdf.org and will suggest it for our 4th of July band. I can’t think of better music to replace Lassus than a tribute to Davis’ military service. Although, bandmusicpdf.org really needs your bio of Davis.

And I’ll be ordering “Miss Trombonism” to try and also to support this effort.

Trombone Francais: https: https://bandmusicpdf.org/trombonefrancais/
Note because it was published in 1921, I believe there is no copyright on the band version. If someone is currently publishing a version for sale I can remove the link.

[yeodoug]

Note because it was published in 1921, I believe there is no copyright on the band version. If someone is currently publishing a version for sale I can remove the link.

Davis' five trombone pieces are all in the public domain so there are no copyright restrictions on performing or arranging them. Aaron Hettinga is planning to arrange all five of them for trombone and piano. Miss Trombonism is already for sale, as mentioned above, and he is working on the rest. Check back at Cherry Classics soon.

-Douglas Yeo

[andym]

Thanks, Doug. Because my brother-in-law is a music publisher I try to very careful about stepping on their toes.

The website I found for band music is careful about copyright which means that every January new pieces get added.

And I’m glad that all of the pieces will get published for trombone and piano.