Talk to me about Bach 36 horns

[Amconk]

I’ve been recently considering getting a medium bore horn. I’d like something that is sort of all around, whether playing in a pit orchestra, small ensemble, solo, or pep band situation. All of which I find myself in from time to time.

I’ve never been much of a Bach guy, but I’ve recently been considering the Bach 36. I have one listed on my local Craigslist right now that’s a Bach 36BO, good condition, recent make, listed for $1200. It’s been listed for several months, so there might be some haggling room in the price. I’d like to play test it first before I make any decision.

Are Bach’s from the more recent era any good? What should I look for when I check it out? Is a 36 a good “all-purpose” horn choice? What’s a used one in decent shape worth?

What are your thoughts?

Michael “Fat Boy” Conkey

[Burgerbob]

A good 36 is one of the best trombones out there.

I love my Corp 36K, and the 36BO I owned years ago was one of the best horns I've owned. I'm also borrowing a gold-plated Corp straight 36 that has this amazing warm sound.

That said, there's a reason the whole world doesn't run on .525s. For anything overtly commercial, my 3B/F or 16M seem more suited to the task, and for anything that needs the hammer dropped my 42B has a larger sound.

I got my current .525 after Covid started, so I can't comment on gigs I've played with it (fingers crossed that I will someday!). I can think of a few settings... just a couple that I would have chosen it over one of my other tenors in the last couple years. And on at least one occasion, I would have been giving up double pay!

For now, it's quite fun to play and find that tweener not-quite-42 and not-quite-small-bore sound and live in it. Is that worth more than $1000? That's up to you.

Also, outside of Doug Elliot land (which I highly recommend) it's definitely harder to find a nice match to the 36 than most other horns, IMO.

[spencercarran]

The 36 is quite sensitive to mouthpiece choice. Use a big mouthpiece (and big air) and anyone who listens with their ears instead of their eyes will believe you're playing a large bore. Use a smaller mouthpiece and a lighter touch to fit in with chamber music and some big band settings. If you only own one tenor trombone, the 36 is almost certainly the best choice since it can do everything reasonably well. As with any Bach, there's a fairly even response across the range of dynamics and pitch. I'm not convinced it has any practical upper limit on the volume while maintaining a consistent timbre. High range responds easily, and since the 36 uses the same rotor and valve tubing as a 42, it's pretty free blowing and open in the valve register (that valve notoriously feels tight on a 42, but it's big enough for the 36).

There's a reputational mystique around the "Corporation" era and even more of one around the Mt Vernon era but the actual 36 design has had almost no major changes in its history. If it's mechanically in order and plays well, who cares that much about the engraving on the bell? Nothing specific to check for other than what you already know on any trombone - is the slide aligned, are the stockings trashed, do the tuning slides and rotor move, etc. Bach rotor linkages are noisy, but that's the same for every Bach I've ever seen so not a red flag for any individual instrument. You can spend some cash to replace them, oil frequently, or accept the clanking sounds.

$1200 is a good price if it's in nice shape. I've seen some go for less than that, most for more. eBay currently lists US-located examples ranging from about $1250-$2300, but this year has been hard on many people's finances and if it's been sitting unsold for a while the current owner may be willing to take what they can get.

[Doug Elliott]

If I had to do everything on one horn it would be my 36B, and there was a time when it was my primary horn. However the fact is at this point I rarely play it because most of my work is on a .500, but when I do play it I'm always reminded how much I like it.

[Amconk]

A good 36 is one of the best trombones out there.

I love my Corp 36K, and the 36BO I owned years ago was one of the best horns I've owned. I'm also borrowing a gold-plated Corp straight 36 that has this amazing warm sound.

Wow, I bet that 36K is a fun horn! How’s the ergonomics of it? I’ve always shied away from larger valves because I’ve got a big neck.

[Burgerbob]

A good 36 is one of the best trombones out there.

I love my Corp 36K, and the 36BO I owned years ago was one of the best horns I've owned. I'm also borrowing a gold-plated Corp straight 36 that has this amazing warm sound.

Wow, I bet that 36K is a fun horn! How’s the ergonomics of it? I’ve always shied away from larger valves because I’ve got a big neck.

I had Benn Hansson add a Shires wide crook (still .525, yellow) because it was basically unplayable with the stock slide. Even for me, a skinny white boy! Now it's bass width like the rest of the world.

I like the horn a lot... I have a DE setup for it that gets a lot out of the instrument. Nothing I had before really seemed to hit the mark. Still got some work to do, the K valve needs some TLC and I may change the tenon/receiver out to 42 parts so I can use the big slide. It's definitely on the more legit side of 36 land, probably too far for some.

[spencercarran]

I may change the tenon/receiver out to 42 parts so I can use the big slide.

Wouldn't a 36 with big slide just be a 42 with half inch smaller bell flare?

[Burgerbob]

I may change the tenon/receiver out to 42 parts so I can use the big slide.

Wouldn't a 36 with big slide just be a 42 with half inch smaller bell flare?

That's the idea!

[BGuttman]

So I guess that would make it a "40"?

[dougm]

One of the best horns I ever owned was a Bach LT36BG - I hope that model number is correct. A Bach 36 with standard valve, lightweight silver nickel slide, and gold brass bell. I selected it from 6 exactly the same horns at a usually mail-order only house in NJ while on vacation in 1980. National Music? I cannot remember the name of the business now. Probably out of business.

I sold it to buy a Bach 42B after college, and have regretted it ever since. I have not played a Bach 36 or 36B that has come close until the first of this year when I bought a straight 36 that the bell had been cyrogenically (sp?) frozen some years back when that was popular. What a great horn.

To the OP - go play the horn. Put it through a thorough test drive and see what you think! Good luck.

Doug

[elmsandr]

So I guess that would make it a "40"?

No, that model already exists.... It was an earlier version.

Pretty sure one example was a dual bore... something like .515 and .547. kinda like the old symphony basses.

There were two that passed through a couple of years ago... 2017 or so? I think Noah had one for a bit.

Cheers,
Andy

[Neo Bri]

So I guess that would make it a "40"?

Wouldn't it be a 39? There's probably a model already, too.

[Finetales]

Bach 41K. (39 is the alto.)

[spencercarran]

Wouldn't a 36 with big slide just be a 42 with half inch smaller bell flare?

That's the idea!

Simpler route might be to just mount a 36 bell on a 42 then

[bimmerman]

That's the idea!

Simpler route might be to just mount a 36 bell on a 42 then

I wonder if the factory convertible Bachs are toleranced well enough to swap bells like that.

More on topic, my dad has a NY 36 that is just outstanding. It blew away my Edwards .525 in terms of playability, sound, and ease of playing. Unsurprisingly, he has no interest in parting with it.

[Thrawn22]

If i didn't get hooked up with my CONN 78H i would've bought a straight 36. The couple I've tried were goid blowing and had a wide range of color. I myself don't see the need for a rotor on anything smaller than a .547 horn but that's me.

[pedrombon]

I own a Bach 36 yellow brass bell section with 42 receiver. I've played it with my 508/525, 525, 525/547 and 547 slides, and it works really great with all of them, it's very versatile.

After many modifications made to my Bachs, I realized that I had a box with enough parts to make a new section bell. So I took the parts to my tech and he brought them back to life. Relacquered in Germany.

The result was an absolutely new bell section, assembled without tension, so it sounds, vibrates and projects very well.

I'm considering selling it, in case anyone is interested here...

[BGuttman]

Quite frankly, when I don't know what part I'm playing I usually grab my Bach 36 (CG with the attachment in). Versatile enough to play nearly anything put in front of me. I also think if I had to keep only one horn it would be a medium bore with F (in my case the 36).

[Burgerbob]

That's the idea!

Simpler route might be to just mount a 36 bell on a 42 then

The slide will have the large connector too, so I will have options, not just the 42 slide.

[Finetales]

Speaking of 42 slides on 36 bells, the inverse (36 slides with 42 bells) can also work really well. I played one like that at DJ's and it was a great player.

[andym]

I have a 36B with a slightly customized valve section that also made it convertible. It's a great horn and one of my favorite things is putting in the straight neckpipe. It is an excellent horn the valve in but sound just leaps out of it in straight mode. As an amateur, I could play it as my only horn and did that for a while. Now it is part of a few horns and mostly gets used for outdoor gigs or lighter stuff where I want a valve.

[TheBoneRanger]

My 36 may be the best horn I own, but I rarely get to play if, for some of the reasons mentioned above. Often too big, or too small.

It works best for me if I approach it like a large bore tenor, and let the smaller bore and shank do the work. Like a large bore with some of the unnecessary heft taken out of the sound, and I think having a small shank mouthpiece opens up a different palette of articulations compared to a large shank mouthpiece.

Andrew

[modelerdc]

I feel the Bach 36 is the best trombone made ever, and If I could have only one trombone it would be a Bach 36B with LT slide. having said that I don't use the one I have very often for the same reasons others have stated. For large ensembles its the large bore tenor, and for commercial work the small bore. But when the 36 is a joy to play when it's right for the job. Small groups with one trombone, first parts in orchestra when scaling down, 2nd parts when the 1st is on alto, solo work. In all fairness, all the .525 medium bore trombones I've played were good horns, the 78H is excellent, king 3B plus different but in a very good way, medium bore Yamahas are easy to play, Conn 88H and Shires with the .525 slide option are great too. But there's something about the Bach 36, where it's as if everything that's good about Bachs comes together easily. You don't have to play a bunch of them to find a good one, as it seems you sometimes have to do with Bach 42s! If it's not messed up a 36 will play! Yes they seem to have different flavors, some are darker in tone, others clearer and responsive. I don't find them hard to match mouthpieces to, just about anything with a small shank will work, mouthpieces like an 11C for brilliance and high work, or something like a 5GS for a full round sound. The fabled 6 1/2AL, often found to be large for small horns and small for large horns, fits the 36 like a match made in heaven. Price, 36s can often be found for a little less than 42s. And there are a lot of them around not being used. Pick your choice, trigger or no, Brass or LT nickel slide, Yellow or gold bell. You don't need an open wrap, and the horn plays fine with the standard valve, the stock lead pipe works great. But it's worth it to pay a little more for one that's in good shape rather than one that's been beat up. When you get one you like don't ever sell, because you'll may soon be looking for one again!

[CheeseTray]

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:04 am
So I guess that would make it a "40"?
No, that model already exists.... It was an earlier version.

Pretty sure one example was a dual bore... something like .515 and .547. kinda like the old symphony basses.

There were two that passed through a couple of years ago... 2017 or so? I think Noah had one for a bit.

Cheers,
Andy

I own a New York 40B bell (but no slide). The bell is a 42ish sized valve, slightly larger gooseneck and a 45 bell flare. The span from the gooseneck side to the bell side is wider than a 42. I believe that it originally came with a .525/.547 dual bore slide. I use a 42 slide with it.

[RConrad]

I've used my Benge 175F in both a symphonic setting and a jazz setting. In both cases it got the job done for what I was doing and I just really like the horn. Now stuff like pep band I still prefer my old small bore or my flugabone.

[sf105]

I nudged my regular section leader into buying an Mt Vernon straight 36 and she sounds so much better than on the 42B she's been playing since high school. The only catch is that she has short arms and can't quite reach 7th, but that's my job.

[RJMason]

I also think the 36B is the most versatile trombone ever made. And truly the pinnacle of Vincent Bach’s trombone designs. I play an LT36BG from the 80s and it is my desert island horn. It blends in horn sections, and down low can lock in with tuba and bass bone. I’ve used it for everything: from Histoire du Soldat, to shows with a wide range to cover like Kiss of the Spiderwoman, to subbing in the Mingus Big Band, to recording it on hit records-the trombone on Uptown Funk is my 36. I’ve purchased and played so many horns trying to find a different setup that was better, from 79H to Yamaha 646, Williams 7, Inderbinen, BAC trigger horns, Lawler, King 3BF, all amazing horns in their own ways, but for me, the 36 is unmatched.

I’ve also owned a NY 36B which was great, but a little more mellow, closer to a 42B. I preferred the 80s horn. And also a NY Bach model 30 which was .515/.525. Gorgeous gold brass bell and slide tubes but a little tricky to fit into multiple situations so I let that go as well. You can get lucky with the alloy combinations of those vintage horns, but I think once Bach really locked in the design for factory production it shined.

I’m a big fan of the gold brass nickel combinations, a bit more than the traditional yellow brass regular weight setup. Also look to players like Luis Bonilla who put a 36 bell on his 16 setup to get a little more projection for the horn section gigs he does in addition to the jazz hits. Or the great Jimmy Knepper who played a 36 set up with a 42 bell. Even if you tweak it, the 36 has the foundation for a great trombone.

A good 36 is one of the best trombones out there.

I love my Corp 36K, and the 36BO I owned years ago was one of the best horns I've owned. I'm also borrowing a gold-plated Corp straight 36 that has this amazing warm sound.

Burgerbob, if that gold plated Corp straight 36 is ever up for sale, send my info along (if you don’t snag it first!)

[Burgerbob]

Burgerbob, if that gold plated Corp straight 36 is ever up for sale, send my info along (if you don’t snag it first!)

I'm pretty sure it'll never be up for sale, but you're first in line now! It really does sound great.

[sf105]

So, is there any modern horn that comes close? Modular or otherwise?

[hornbuilder]

M&W. If I may be so bold....

[Burgerbob]

So, is there any modern horn that comes close? Modular or otherwise?

Well, you can still buy a brand new 36...

[Dennis]

Speaking of 42 slides on 36 bells, the inverse (36 slides with 42 bells) can also work really well. I played one like that at DJ's and it was a great player.

Wasn't that the Jimmy Knepper setup?

[modelerdc]

I believe the word was that Knepper's 36 was factory made with an 8 1/2 inch bell back when Bach used to offer that option. You can get the same effect or course by just putting a 42 Bell on a 36, or just changing the slide reciever of a 42 bell section to that of a 36. I've played such a set up and it works well, though I like the standard setup even better. I've also played a 36 bell on a 42, and even though this works I didn't see any advantage. BTW Knepper used a 6 1/2AL on his 36, and when asked why he said it was the smallest mouthpiece he could play a low E on which he had to have. It seems he used to used something smaller, 11C or whatever, when he was slugged in the mouth (By Monk?), and when the swelling went down the smaller mpc no longer worked, hence the 6 1/2AL.

[Klimchak]

Knepper was hit by Mingus.

[modelerdc]

Thanks for the info

[RJMason]

I have yet to try the M&W .525 but I suspect that would come close! I’m a big fan of those designs from the pictures I’ve seen, but never got a chance to try one! Maybe one day!!!

And you can still buy brand new 36s of course. Does anyone know if Bach offers the same options it has expanded for the 42 series for the 36? Like a 36 with an infinity valve or open flow? Different wrap? That would be really cool to try.

As for me, I’ve tried many horns to beat out the Bach and while some may look a lot cooler and have more “bling” or customization options, they never quite match the sound, feel, presence. I bought my 36 at dillon music. I was actually on my way to purchase a Rath R3F, which I tried at the factory in England while on tour in the UK. While they were getting the paperwork I picked up this horn, it was beat up. Gave it a blow and was amazed. There was a family searching for a horn for their son before he left for college. I politely asked them all to turn around, listen to me play some scales, excerpts, and improv without seeing the horns, and tell me which they thought sounded best. All four family members unanimously chose the Bach 36 over the Rath. I bought the Bach instead...saving $3500!!!

I think every trombonist should have a 36B in their stable, just in case you take a gig and are unsure of what you’re walking into. It will work!

[harrisonreed]

Meh. The Bach 36 is disappointing to me every time I try one. If it exists for gigs that you take that you don't actually know what the gig is and show up with no idea of what horn you should play the day of the concert, that sounds like the worst case scenario on all fronts. I can see the ads now:

"Bach 36, compromise always..."
"For times when you have no clue what you're doing, choose Bach 36"
"It may not be the best tool for this job, but you can play notes on it for any job. Settle for Bach 36"

This is all tongue in cheek. I know plenty of players who sound fantastic on Bachs.

[BGuttman]

Meh. The Bach 36 is disappointing to me. If it exists for gigs that you take that you don't actually know what the gig is and show up with no idea of what horn you should play the day of the concert, that to me is an extremely specific use horn.

There are uses where a Bach 36 is ideal. I like a 36B for theater work where the parts are all over the horn. I also like it in quintet, especially if the 5th part is being played on a small tuba or bass trombone. Also nice for 3rd in Big Band when you are playing a graduated set.

Again, the 36B is a "jack of all trades" horn, although not a master of none -- more like a master of some.

[harrisonreed]

Oops, I edited it, Bruce. But not enough to warrant a change in your post. Nah, I get it.

[Posaunus]

I really liked my Bach 36B.
Then I lucked into a near-perfect Conn 79H. I like that even better.
The very versatile 36B is now just a fond memory.
But, in addition to the 79H, I still have a surprisingly versatile King 3BF.

[Mv2541]

Large bore horns never felt right to me, and every day felt like a dice roll of if I would feel good on them. My 36 feels like home, and I'm much more consistent even when my schedule doesn't let me play every day like I used to. I would only play a large bore horn now if I really had to.

[dershem]

My Bach 36G is my 'go-to" horn. I can play just about any gig on it.
yes, there are some who let the horn master them instead of the other way around and call it a 'halfway there compromise" but that's nonsense. I've played orchestral stuff on it, jazz band (everything from lead to bass just changing the mouthpiece), rock, chamber music.... very flexible horn. Close your eyes, and it's just a good solid sound.
Yes - I have other horns. I have just about every size, and when there's a gig that calls for a particular sound or fell I can bring that, but ... you want a horn that can do everything (which is often the case, as mentioned above, in the pit and similar settings) and the 36 is a great all-around horn.

[papaslides]

I’ve recently joined the search for the perfect 36B, on another thread I started asking about the diff. between different tuning slide options (B/BO/CO) I it seemed like most think the classic B was the way to go. Now I’m curious what people think about corporation vs like an 80s made horn. Pros/cons from anyone who has spent time on both generations. (For context I’ve been playing an 80s King 3B/F on cruise ship and salsa gigs, and have just come to the decision that it’s too small, and that my Getzen custom .547 too big. I’d rather have a 36B and then go back to a straight tenor for my pea shooter)

[hyperbolica]

The M&W 525 is really amazing, if you've got the cash. Also a Rath R3 would be a great but spendy do-it-all horn. I've liked most of the 36s I've played much more than the 42s. But the horn I love most is my 79h. There's one on eBay right now for about $800. Needs some work, but you'd wind up with a great horn for a great price. The difference between 79h and 36b is the typical Conn/Bach difference. Bach can be a little warmer, Conn has a little more personality. Plus the Conn still has the wide slide. I owned a Benge 175f for a while, and it was very similar to the 79h, a little closer to the 36b side.

If you need something just a little smaller, you can try a Selmer Bolero w/f. They are a bit darker than the 3b, with quicker articulations than the 525 horns.

[Nuunoe]

Hi everyone!

Returning trombone player here. This time last February I started playing again after a 30 year break. My daughter discovered an old VHS recording (burnt onto a CD) of me playing in a fusion bar band back in the day. She talked me into trying to play something for her and I haven't put it down since.

I had 2 horns in my basement, a Conn 18h Director and a beat up King3b. Both were checked out and serviced by a fantastic horn tech in Toronto. (Ron of Partch Brasswind Services)

I kept my eyes open for a larger horn and picked up a used Bach36 in September. I'd been playing the 3b since February and I found I was having a tough time keeping my notes sounding clean on the 36. Searched the internet on everything I could find about Bach trombones and came to the conclusion that the 'slots' on the 36 were considered 'narrower'. The horn feels less forgiving if I'm not dead on with the pitch of the notes.

Does this sound like a reasonable observation?? Any advice on how to approach this?
I know the bore is larger requiring me to work my air more. I'd read some posts by people who've had issues with Bach 36s and posts of others who love them. I'm just trying to find out if the issue is with me or the horn... (though I suspect the issue is me)

Last month I rented a Yamaha 446g from our local Long and McQuade music store so I could learn how to use an F trigger. Right away it felt easier to play and perhaps more forgiving of my ability to slot pitches.

Pre Covid face to face lessons with a good teacher would clear up any horn questions pretty quickly. Any advice, experience, or information you could share would be super helpful! Thank you

[BGuttman]

First, welcome back.

You may find that the Yamaha 446 (or any other Yamaha Medium Bore) plays better than a Bach for you. I found that when I was looking for my symphonic horn. I tried a Bach 42B and a Yamaha 682 and the Yamaha won.

We have a few members here who give lessons over Skype. Doug Elliott (the mouthpiece maker and a great jazz player), Neo Bri (who owns this site), Brian Johnson, and Dave Wilken to name just a few. A Skype lesson or two with any of them should help get you back on track a lot faster.

[Doug Elliott]

It definitely sounds like you could use a little direction in what you're doing. I can clear up whatever you're doing in a short Skype or Zoom session. PM or email me.

[Vegasbound]

Have the Skype session with Doug

[JoeAumann]

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:04 am
So I guess that would make it a "40"?
No, that model already exists.... It was an earlier version.

Pretty sure one example was a dual bore... something like .515 and .547. kinda like the old symphony basses.

There were two that passed through a couple of years ago... 2017 or so? I think Noah had one for a bit.

Cheers,
Andy

I own a New York 40B bell (but no slide). The bell is a 42ish sized valve, slightly larger gooseneck and a 45 bell flare. The span from the gooseneck side to the bell side is wider than a 42. I believe that it originally came with a .525/.547 dual bore slide. I use a 42 slide with it.

The 40 bell has a 9" flare like a 45, but it is not the same bell. The bells were made on different mandrels. The throat of the 40 is tighter than a 45. And yes, .525-.547 slide.

[Tarkus697]

I've had my 36BO since spring of 1990 when I got in new in HS. Used it all through college in wind band, jazz ensemble, brass quintet, orchestral, and small group settings. Since then it's been used for concert/community band, pit orchestras, and subbing with local symphonies. Paired with the right mouthpiece (I use a Schilke 50) and the right amount of air (I was a competitive swimmer so big lungs), it can fit almost anywhere.

I even used it with my wedding/events band before I picked up my Rath R2F (thanks, Raymond!) which fits better in that setting.

If I had to have one horn for the rest of my life, it would be a 36B of the same era as mine or earlier. The open wrap on mine is fine, but I don't like how far back it extends in small quarters.