Help with finding a new trombone

ttf_playingstudentfor7years · Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:37 pm

I've been playing a student trombone for about seven years now and I've decided that it's about time for an upgrade (actually I decided that a long time ago). But I'm having quite a bit of trouble finding the right instrument. I would prefer to have a bore larger than .500 (preferably .547), a bell that's not yellow brass, and I am reluctant to have an F attachment. Although there are many trombones that fit this description, few are within my price range. Any suggestions as to a specific instrument or a good place to find a used one?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:41 pm

Dillions has a ton of used instruments.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:01 am

What is your price range? Used market is probably your best guess. If you can't spend more than say $400 on a horn, I'd be patient. You can blow all of that on a cheap trombone-shaped-object when for a little more (or with a little waiting for something used in that price range) you can get a good used horn or a fairly high quality Chinese horn like JP Rath or Wessex.

Also, a larger horn isn't necessarily an upgrade. What kind of playing do you do? What are your aspirations on trombone? What styles do you want to play in the long run? Why are you reluctant about F attachments? Why do you think you want something that isn't yellow brass? The more details you provide, the better we can help you to figure out your options.

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:58 am

I recently found a King 4B of dubious vintage. It's either from 1976 or 2000...
Rose brass bell, nickle silver slide. Nice fast slide. Very responsive.
I had not been a big bore fan before I tried this horn. Bach 42, Conn 88, Yamaha Xeno .547, all seemed dull, lifeless.
This one was used, $700, one dent in the bell about 1/3 way back from the flare.
I'm very pleasantly surprised and I'm really enjoying the horn.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:01 am

If its rose brass its a 2000.
Vintage 4Bs are yellow brass. And should be engraved SONOROUS on the bell.

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:44 am

Thanks Bonesmarsh! It looked a little too clean for 1976, but there was wear around the grip area and on the tuning slide. Also I have a Yamaha from the mid seventies that is near mint, so I know it's possible if unlikely to find one that clean.
The serial was also weird, marked 4B 5 614***, so I don't know if the '5' is part of the serial number or a version indicator for 4B model number.
Conn-Selmer has this chart for King - not a lot of help.

Date   Serial Number
1883-1915   1-50,000
1915-1925   50,000-78,000
1925-1930   78,001-128,000
1930-1935   126,001-161,000
1935-1940   161,001-220,000
1940-1945   220,001-275,000
1945-1950   275,001-305,000
1950-1955   305,001-340,000
1955-1960   340,001 - 370,000
1960-1965   406,501-457,600
1970-1975   457,601-511,750
1975-1980   511,751-850,975
1981-1982   850,976-906-859
1983-1984   906,860-976,571
1985-1986   976,572 - 999,999
100,000 - 159,464

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:48 am

Regardless of my horns age/condition... My point was that if you find a straight 4B, you should give it a blow.
I had decided to stay with small bores until I encountered a large bore straight horn. It happened to be the King 4B.
I am looking forward to comparing my horn with a Conn 8H when the opportunity presents itself.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:13 am

benge 190 straight
--------------------
holton straight 547
---------------------
8h
----------------------
SHO ME THE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
-------

Quote from: playingstudentfor7years on Feb 20, 2015, 09:37PMI've been playing a student trombone for about seven years now and I've decided that it's about time for an upgrade (actually I decided that a long time ago). But I'm having quite a bit of trouble finding the right instrument. I would prefer to have a bore larger than .500 (preferably .547), a bell that's not yellow brass, and I am reluctant to have an F attachment. Although there are many trombones that fit this description, few are within my price range. Any suggestions as to a specific instrument or a good place to find a used one?

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:54 am

Quote from: playingstudentfor7years on Feb 20, 2015, 09:37PMI've been playing a student trombone for about seven years now and I've decided that it's about time for an upgrade (actually I decided that a long time ago). But I'm having quite a bit of trouble finding the right instrument. I would prefer to have a bore larger than .500 (preferably .547), a bell that's not yellow brass, and I am reluctant to have an F attachment. Although there arei many trombones that fit this description, few are within my price range. Any suggestions as to a specific instrument or a good place to find a used one?

I too like to play trombones without the f-valve but this is my small and medium trombones.

Why are you so sure you don't want an f-valve on your .547?

I realise it is different to play with or without an f-valve both soundwise and technically, but if I only were allowed one trombone and wanted to play a large bore then I would choose the one with a valve. This is simply because the modern classical composers who write music for trombone as a solo-instrument today count on you to have one. And I'm also thinking as you are a student it also gives you the oppertunity to investigate the added technical possibilities a f-valve brings.

You don't have to go as large as a.547 either. If you want something slightly larger than.500 you could find something in the range.522 to.525. In that range you have the Bach 36, the Benge 175 and the Conn 79H, if you consider to buy a used trombone.

I have several straight large bore trombones but I only use one if I'm absolutly certain I don't need the valve. For my best largebore, a Schilke ST20 I ordered a separate goose neck so I can convert to a straight trombone, I always bring the part but I have never changed on a gig, it is a bit awkward and takes time. It is not worth the effort, besides I often miss the valve on my .547 when it's not there and it is not for the low notes, but these notes

b

/Tom

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:22 am

Watemailonman, you're absolutely right about the F attachment IF you were limited to a single large bore horn. I'm not sure what the OP has on the agenda as far as repertoire. In my case, most of my trombone time is with a marching band, with some blues, R&B, jazz.
My reason for going large bore at all was just pure sonic impact on demand. Serious players have a lot more things to consider for trombone tone. In my case, when subtlety has already been trampled, and I need to hit Magnificent Seven as hard as I can, a straight large bore is the biggest hammer on the tool bench.

ttf_playingstudentfor7years · Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:19 pm

Thank you all for your responses. I will be playing both jazz and classical. I recently found a King 4B that fits my criteria and I am thinking about purchasing it. Any opinions?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:30 pm

If you want one horn that does everything a King 4B is an okay option. Might be a little large for jazz. A medium bore (525) is considered by many to be a chameleon horn and might be more suitable for your needs. Especially one with an F attachment like a Bach 36, Conn 78, JP Rath 231, etc. etc.

What is your student horn? Yamaha 354 are actually surprsingly good jazz horns. If you have a decent student horn that can be your jazz horn and you can get a 547 an cover both bases... although a 525 horn can do quite a bit. Very versatile bore size.

Also... do they make a 4B straight horn? I don't think I've ever seen one, although taht doesn't mean they dont' exist.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:04 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 22, 2015, 12:30PM...

Also... do they make a 4B straight horn? I don't think I've ever seen one, although taht doesn't mean they dont' exist.

Absolutely. They make a 4B straight but never made a 5B straight.

Personally, I prefer the 4B with F, but that's just me.

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:28 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 22, 2015, 12:30PM
Also... do they make a 4B straight horn? I don't think I've ever seen one, although taht doesn't mean they dont' exist.

Yes, I just acquired a straight 4B, rose brass bell, the usual King nickel handslide. Mine is very responsive, in fact that's the mail reason I pulled the trigger on the deal. I had played a 5B previously and did not care for it, felt dead. I don't know if there is any difference between the two horns other than the F section.

ttf_playingstudentfor7years · Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:01 pm

My student horn is a Conn 23h. Bought it brand new 7 years ago

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:12 pm

Ah yes I mixed up the 5B with the 4B. The 5B is not simply a 4B with an attachment, but there have been different iterations of the 5B over the years.

I've never played a 23H personally, it may be a decent horn, I'm not sure. If you want to do both and aren't going to be a proefssional trombonist, the medium bore option is great. There is a decent used market, the models I mentioned before are good. The new market is increasng n option too. The JP Rath and Wessex both have a medium bore option that are fairly high quality for the price.

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:12 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 22, 2015, 01:04PMAbsolutely. They make a 4B straight but never made a 5B straight.

Personally, I prefer the 4B with F, but that's just me.

Bruce what are the differences between 4B and 5B that would lead you to prefer the 4B with F section?
I would probably agree, but I don't know why.
I understand the 4B is available with valve or strait, the 5B only with valve, both .547.
Are other parts of the horn different?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:26 pm

The 5B has a different bell taper and a 9" bell. It's more like the Bach 45B or the Conn 89H with the large bell. It's a "tweener" between bass and large tenor.

I had a 4B and a 5B at the same time and decided the 5B was a little too diffuse for me and sold it on (the guy who bought it liked it a lot). Loved the 4B-F as a concert band trombone. It was silver plated and had some blending issues in orchestra, though (rest of section playing Bach 42B s).

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sat May 20, 2017 7:43 am

Update on my remarks:
I recently found a great deal on a Bach 42BO that I could not pass up. So I now have an F attachment large bore. I must admit that it sound wonderful. I have not yet developed any facility for using the valve.

ttf_JimClendenin · Post by **ttf_JimClendenin** » Sat May 20, 2017 7:43 am

Update on my remarks:
I recently found a great deal on a Bach 42BO that I could not pass up. So I now have an F attachment large bore. I must admit that it sound wonderful. I have not yet developed any facility for using the valve.