F horn doubling

[AndrewMeronek]

Well folks, I finally took the plunge and grabbed myself a F horn to double on. Any recommendations are wholeheartedly welcome - are there other trombone/F horn doublers here? The goods:

Yamaha YHR567 "intermediate" level F horn
Yamaha 32C4 mouthpiece

[BGuttman]

I've been trying to double on French Horn on and off (mostly off) for at least 20 years. With little to no success.

But I know of somebody who transitioned from trombone to French Horn, so it's possible.

[paulyg]

Sounding really crappy on horn is really easy, sounding even OK on horn is really hard. That's about as far as I got.

[robcat2075]

I noodled on one for about a year in high school and for several months in college. It's great fun to try.

If you are content with playing the "low" horn parts in a band or something I think a trombone player could make a go at that as a doubler. I don't know that it will be good for your trombone embouchure.

Without a double horn the "high" parts are are hit or miss with lots of miss, more miss than most ensembles will tolerate. Even with the double horn it's tough.

[robcat2075]

Yup...

[LeoInFL]

I picked up my first french horn 8 weeks ago (a vintage Holton double - Kruspe wrap) and it's been fun. Our community orchestra just finished our 3rd rehearsal of the season about an hour ago. For this upcoming concert I'll be playing mostly 3rd book. Horn parts are a little odd: 1st & 3rd are very similar range-wise and can be considered 'high' parts; 2nd & 4th same thing but considered 'low' parts.

The info about horn has been through youtube and my sectionmates, so please take that into consideration.

My Holton is F/Bb double with a Kruspe wrap (the "change valve" is next to valve #1). Your Yamaha is a Geyer wrap (the change valve is next to valve #3 instead). I've read that Kruspe-style horns respond best with funnel/v-shaped mouthpieces. I use a JK 1CK mouthpiece that has an 18.00mm rim (I started at 16.5mm, then 17.5mm) and a 4.2mm bore. I've read that Geyer-style horns respond best with bowl-shaped mouthpieces. I haven't tried a bowl-shaped mouthpiece on my horn so I can't verify this notion.

F Horn sheet music is such that a written 'C' is actually a concert 'F' pitch.

Range is dependent on the player. I have a reliable high F (two F's above middle C on the piano) on my large bore tenor so 'high' range on my F horn hasn't been an issue. To me (and most others) the challenge in playing F horn is that the partials are very close together towards the top of the treble clef (horn) staff.

How I learned: I bought a Rubank's Advanced Horn Method Vol.1 and played through it to learn the fingerings. I didn't start with an Elementary Method book since I already knew note/rest values, intervals and notations from decades of trombone playing. I also printed out famous F horn excerpts (Raiders of the Lost Ark, Firebird solo, Bolero solo, Leia's Theme, Horn Call (short version), etc) and used those in my daily routine. Since I knew what the melody was supposed to sound like, catching myself with the wrong fingering or wrong partial was easy.

One thing that has helped me learn the horn is to stay on the Bb side (thumb trigger pressed down) so I've only learned that set of fingerings. The 3rd book that I'll be playing from for the concert doesn't have any low notes ("best" played on the F-side of the horn) so it's worked for me so far.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Please keep in mind I'm no expert, but I was right where you're at just weeks ago.

Good luck and have fun!

[Bonearzt]

That's a recurring nightmare I have, getting called to play 1st horn in a major Symphony with a bigtime conductor and having NO idea what I'm doing!!!

[afugate]

I played French Horn all throughout high school in our wind ensemble, while playing the lead bone book in our jazz band. I thought I would improve my lead chops by playing french horn, but I was a "smile" player back then, so I hit a brick wall fairly quickly on french horn and never excelled at it.

I don't need to tell you this, but for youngsters who are thinking like I did, my advice is to fix your chops first. That opens the door to so much more.

--Andy in OKC

[stewbones43]

I did a lot of french horn playing when I was teaching all brass instruments and I found that if I tried to play it with the same embouchure I used for trombone or trumpet then the tuning and tone were way out. The tuning slide was out by over 2 inches and the tone was too thin and brassy. So I asked for help from the horn specialist in the team. He changed my embouchure to one where the lower edge of the mouthpiece rim was inset into the fleshy part of the lower lip so the lower lip was curled out a small amount. All of a sudden I sounded like a french horn player and the tuning slide went back in. Trombone and trumpet playing were not affected and the switch was easy for me.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[AndrewMeronek]

Thanks for the experiences. Currently, I'm a bit mystified why I'm having pitch-dropping at the end of notes on F horn. Not trombone. Alas, the quirks to work out.

[TexasTBone]

I double on F Horn occasionally. I used to do it more often - sometimes splitting concerts in each section in my community band. I play on a Conn 8D double horn. Generally, I use the Bb side of the horn above second line G and regular F fingerings below that. My problem has always been I could easily switch from trombone to horn, but not so much the other direction. Now that I've been playing bass almost exclusively for a couple of years the switch is tougher.

[AndrewMeronek]

After a week, I have to observe that I am not a big fan of "just play on the B-flat side" of the horn. When I picked up the horn, I also picked up Farkas' "The Art Of French Horn Playing" and there's a lot of great stuff in there. Page 16 goes over his preferences for which "side" of the horn to play in various ranges, which corroborates some informal advice I've seem from friends, plus my own attention when practicing. Failing to heed this makes for some pretty huge "Yikes!" moments, intonation-wise. Farkas also talks about tone changes, but at this point I don't think my tone is consistent enough to really be able to parse that out.

[LeoInFL]

My comment about playing primarily on the Bb side of the horn is based on the fact that I play a 'high' horn part where most of the sheet music is 2nd-line G and above. If I were playing 'low' horn parts then I would put more time into learning the F-side fingerings.

[AndrewMeronek]

My comment about playing primarily on the Bb side of the horn is based on the fact that I play a 'high' horn part where most of the sheet music is 2nd-line G and above. If I were playing 'low' horn parts then I would put more time into learning the F-side fingerings.

Sure, that makes perfect sense.

[AndrewMeronek]

He changed my embouchure to one where the lower edge of the mouthpiece rim was inset into the fleshy part of the lower lip so the lower lip was curled out a small amount. All of a sudden I sounded like a french horn player and the tuning slide went back in.

I don't think this is the case for me. As far as my lower lip: I have noticed that it's easy to slide the lower lip in and out of the mouthpiece, and that doing so is definitely bad. In particular, the low range. There's a shift that is pretty much the same idea as what I do on the trombone down around the pedal range, to get more upper lip to vibrate in the mouthpiece after my "normal" embouchure just stops responding past a certain range (about pedal A-flat for me). On F horn, this transition is noticeably higher, presumably due to the smaller mouthpiece. On trombone, this shift does not involve actually moving my lower lip, and on F horn it doesn't have to either . . . but it's easy to do that anyway (not paying attention properly) and that just causes things to fall apart when I try to transition back up in pitch to the "non-low" range. Done wrong, it feels like my lower lip wants to curl itself inward a bit and to pop some lip outside of the rim. Bad!!!

[dershem]

Horn is an interesting challenge. It really tests your ears, as the partials are so close together, and your chops, ad the mouthpiece is so tiny with such a sharp rim. But it can be fun. You have to back off a lot on the air, too. But in the long run, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

[Basbasun]

I do not play French horn, I did some when teaching, that was 20 years back. I did exactly what stewbones43 did, not the same placement as on trombone.
French horn is a funny horn, not like trumpet trombone or tuba.
" It really tests your ears, as the partials are so close together, and your chops, "
Yes if you play the F horn. On the Bb horn the partials line up like on a tenortrombone.

I could play all the note with almost "normal trombone embouchure" but that did not sound like horn, more like a bad valve trombone.

[Finetales]

Horn is one of my main doubles once leaving the usual low brass suspects. I've been fortunate enough to play it on some cool things, usually in addition to a trombone of some sort.

The conventional wisdom of using the Bb side above written G in the staff is a good guideline to start with, but you'll learn that each horn and each player function differently and a fingering that may work for one player/horn combination may not work for another.

My own fingering choices have evolved as I've played the instrument more and gotten more comfortable with my current double. It's pretty universal that the written F (concert Bb) 3 ledgers below down to the written Db are much better on the Bb side, and that's the first thing I changed once I learned that. Next came playing the written F at the bottom of the staff on the Bb side (rather than 1st valve F side), which was huge. These days I usually play that F-Db group on the Bb side, meaning the only notes I usually play on the F side are written G and Gb at the bottom of the staff, written C-F# below the staff, and the C-F# an octave below that.

The Berlin Phil players seem to play nearly everything on the Bb side regardless of register...the Alex 103 must have a better Bb side. Western players seem to use the F side in the middle register much more frequently. A good goal when playing the horn is to be comfortable enough on both sides that you can use either one on any note or passage. Sometimes I play up to C in the staff on the F side because a certain line works better than way. You have to know both sides of your horn, not just one decided upon fingering pattern!

" It really tests your ears, as the partials are so close together, and your chops, "
Yes if you play the F horn. On the Bb horn the partials line up like on a tenortrombone.

Exactly. Unless you have a single F horn, there's nothing to complain about, partial-wise. A 1st or 3rd horn part should be no more technically challenging than a lead trombone part, especially since on many horns the high concert D to F respond easier than they do on many trombones.

Still, if we're talking about ways to get better at the horn, one of the best ways is to practice only on the F side. It's very helpful, and there are occasionally times when you might need it up there. I recently recorded something with a rip from C in the staff to high C above it, and they wanted the rip to be as bright and in your face as possible. Easy solution, play it all on the F side and let 'er rip!

[afugate]

Horn is one of my main doubles once leaving the usual low brass suspects. I've been fortunate enough to play it on some cool things, usually in addition to a trombone of some sort.

The conventional wisdom of using the Bb side above written G in the staff is a good guideline to start with, but you'll learn that each horn and each player function differently and a fingering that may work for one player/horn combination may not work for another.

My own fingering choices have evolved as I've played the instrument more and gotten more comfortable with my current double. It's pretty universal that the written F (concert Bb) 3 ledgers below down to the written Db are much better on the Bb side, and that's the first thing I changed once I learned that. Next came playing the written F at the bottom of the staff on the Bb side (rather than 1st valve F side), which was huge. These days I usually play that F-Db group on the Bb side, meaning the only notes I usually play on the F side are written G and Gb at the bottom of the staff, written C-F# below the staff, and the C-F# an octave below that.

The Berlin Phil players seem to play nearly everything on the Bb side regardless of register...the Alex 103 must have a better Bb side. Western players seem to use the F side in the middle register much more frequently. A good goal when playing the horn is to be comfortable enough on both sides that you can use either one on any note or passage. Sometimes I play up to C in the staff on the F side because a certain line works better than way. You have to know both sides of your horn, not just one decided upon fingering pattern!

" It really tests your ears, as the partials are so close together, and your chops, "
Yes if you play the F horn. On the Bb horn the partials line up like on a tenortrombone.

Exactly. Unless you have a single F horn, there's nothing to complain about, partial-wise. A 1st or 3rd horn part should be no more technically challenging than a lead trombone part, especially since on many horns the high concert D to F respond easier than they do on many trombones.

Still, if we're talking about ways to get better at the horn, one of the best ways is to practice only on the F side. It's very helpful, and there are occasionally times when you might need it up there. I recently recorded something with a rip from C in the staff to high C above it, and they wanted the rip to be as bright and in your face as possible. Easy solution, play it all on the F side and let 'er rip!

Really useful stuff, @Finetales. Thank you for making time to share your thoughts.

--Andy in OKC

[AndrewMeronek]

Well, the tooting continues. I like to think that I've gotten to the point where if given the chance I'd be able to work something up and sound OK. Sight-reading, not really, unless it's simple enough. The muscle memory to consistently hit partials takes a while.

The latest "challenge" that I may need to go grab a lesson from a local pro to really get a good handle on: how to negotiate octave leaps (not rips, clean leaps/slurs) that cross "sides" between F and B-flat. I'm finding those to be pretty awkward and I'm probably making it harder than it needs to be.

[BGuttman]

@Andrew: You can make leaps on the trombone through the F-attachment, no? You aren't thinking of it, but you are coordinating the action of the valve to coincide exactly with the transition. So you just need to apply that technique to the shift over the F/Bb valve.

Good luck. You are already light years ahead of where I got.

[Mikebmiller]

I know a guy who switched from bone to horn in college and is now getting a masters in horn performance. He sounds great.

[timothy42b]

He changed my embouchure to one where the lower edge of the mouthpiece rim was inset into the fleshy part of the lower lip so the lower lip was curled out a small amount. All of a sudden I sounded like a french horn player and the tuning slide went back in.

I don't think this is the case for me. As far as my lower lip: I have noticed that it's easy to slide the lower lip in and out of the mouthpiece, and that doing so is definitely bad. In particular, the low range. There's a shift that is pretty much the same idea as what I do on the trombone down around the pedal range, to get more upper lip to vibrate in the mouthpiece after my "normal" embouchure just stops responding past a certain range (about pedal A-flat for me). On F horn, this transition is noticeably higher, presumably due to the smaller mouthpiece.

I use a fairly large mouthpiece on tenor (4) and alto (DE 102).

I've been playing around on the jHorn, and using a small mouth piece. It's a nonstandard receiver, comes with a 12 ish mouthpiece and 3 insert cups. The big insert makes it too out of tune, so I use the medium, but the low range is a real struggle. The jHorn is a toy, but it weighs nothing and causes me no joint pain, and it's fun to mess with valves even if they click.

This horn player makes it sound good, using a french horn mouthpiece. So it's possible to play into the low range on a small mouthpiece. My efforts haven't really succeeded yet.