Mozart Horn Concertos

[harrisonreed]

If you were going to perform the Mozart horn concerto with a keyboard accompaniment, would you choose piano, organ, or harpsichord?

[Kdanielsen]

Piano would be the (was) the clear winner for me. Its a concerto, you want to be able to blow.

[BGuttman]

Whichever was available. I think I'd prefer harpsichord, especially paired with an alto trombone (that can be a little quieter and more delicate).

Denis Brain performed them with a piano (when he wasn't in front of a full orchestra) so that would work too.

I wonder about the organ, though. You'd need to perform in a church.

Note that concertos 2, 3, and 4 are in Eb (1 is in D) and lie quite nicely on alto trombone.

[harrisonreed]

I'll qualify the question by saying, I think I'm going to record it. The harpsichord can be infinity loud if I want.

I can record with a beautiful sounding piano, harpsichord, or organ. Given that scenario, which would you want to hear?

[BGuttman]

I think I'm more used to hearing piano, but I bet a harpsichord may sound nice. Again, thinking about alto trombone. If you are going to record it on tenor I'd go for piano. And for the curious, you can easily play the pieces on either. If you read the Eb horn parts on tenor (reading bass clef), bring it up an octave to put it in the right tessitura.

[robcat2075]

I would presume a modern piano is better at conveying the subtle nuances of a classical-era orchestral accompaniment.

But if you want people to sit up and go, "Holy Sh*t... WTF?", the harpsichord is the way to go.

[timothy42b]

I vote for organ, with harpsichord in second place and piano never.

I think there is something about the sonic combination of trombone and piano that just comes out uninteresting. It tires my ear to listen to much of it.

[Matt K]

I'll never say no to an organ.

[ithinknot]

Ok, as someone whose real job is as a harpsichord continuo player, let me say that the hps makes a pretty terrible vehicle for orchestral reductions, especially as an accompaniment to modern solo instruments. It's not the volume that's the issue, it's the balance between registers, texture characteristics and everything else. Outside of hps solo music, and very particular forms of obbligato writing, Right Hand Melody is a pretty tough sell, and neutral sustain without lutenistic reiteration is also not really an option.

It basically comes down to what kind of recording you want to make, in what kind of space. You know what a piano will be like, and organ will be great if you have a good organist (and a good organ) who can idiomatically transcribe and re-texture (whether from piano reduction or going back to the score and working out a more formal arrangement).

[harrisonreed]

So, that is interesting. I often hear baroque and classical era orchestrations with a harpsichord playing almost a percussive role. Is that also continuo playing or is that something else?

[LeTromboniste]

Harpsichord is a great continuo instrument or for music idiomatically written for it. It is a very poor substitute for an orchestra. Never had a good experience performing concertos with a harpsichord, even on sackbut. It just isn't meant to fill that role.

Let alone that if I recall correctly, those concertos don't even have continuo so wouldn't even have a keyboard instrument let alone a harpsichord, but if there had been continuo, fortepiano would have been a likely candidate in that time period. So piano is not only definitely a better fit to substitute for orchestra, but it's arguably closer to the right sound.

When you hear harpsichord in an orchestra, unless it's a harpsichord concerto, it is almost always just playing continuo. Obbligato parts are relatively rare.

[harrisonreed]

So organ as the orchestra with a harpsichord as percussive continuo wouldn't make sense. It might sound cool ...

[NickHomes]

The only concertos for solo and orchestra by Mozart in which I have seen figured bass (also in manuscript) is in the first 17 concertos for piano and orchestra (up to ca. 1784), where the figured bass is placed in the left hand of the piano in the solo parts of the orchestra. The rest of the concertos for solo and orchestra such as those for violin or horn do not have a figured bass, so using a continuo instrument such as the harpsichord to accompany them is not a good idea, apart from the reasons for the timbre of the instrument that have already been given by some forum members. If you have the possibility, you could use a Fortpiano (a Stein replica, for example) as suggested by LeTromboniste, with which Mozart was already familiar from the late 1770s.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have always assumed that the best choice for any orchestral reduction would be piano.....so this discussion is rather interesting. I think we need to take the advice of ithinknot and LeTrombonist and steer away from harpsichord. For me, hearing the violin melodies being played by the right hand on a harpsichord would be rather strange. I think that even the lighter tone of an alto trombone could be a bit overwhelming for the harpsichord in a recital setting as well.

I know very little about organs, other than the differences between Baroque and Romantic constructions of the instrument. Was there development of the organ during the second half of the 18th century? Is there is a "classical" organ? If yes, possibly that could be a 2nd choice. I think so much of playing solos with organ depends on the organists' ability to choose the correct stops that work well with the soloist.

On a different note..... I have discussed the playing of the Mozart horn concertos with other trombonists before. Inevitably, the subject of "how to read the music" is a hot topic. Many of my alto-trombone-playing friends believe the only way to learn them is to transcribe them (or get your hands on someone else's transcriptions) into alto clef. One of my friends actually transcribed the concertos into tenor clef.....I believe Christian Lindberg likes to read alto trombone in tenor clef as well. I like to read them directly from the horn parts. Some editions have the horn music in E-flat, so I just read the music exactly how I read B-flat transposed treble clef when I have a tenor trombone in my hands.....very simple. For the horn parts in F (played on alto), I read the music as if I am reading treble clef in concert pitch on a tenor.....works perfectly.

Trombone players of the world.....how do you read the Mozart concertos? Actually, is "concerti" the proper plural?

[Kdanielsen]

Some editions have the horn music in E-flat, so I just read the music exactly how I read B-flat transposed treble clef when I have a tenor trombone in my hands.....very simple. For the horn parts in F (played on alto), I read the music as if I am reading treble clef in concert pitch on a tenor.....works perfectly.

Lindberg mentioned in a video that this is his preferred way to read alto trombone music. He writes out the parts so that it feels like playing tenor trombone reading tenor clef.

Im sure he can read and play alto clef if he wants to. Whatever works…

I wrote out the Mozart horn concerto I performed at my last recital in alto clef. I could play it fine from the Eb horn part, but I wanted to blow it up and make the page turns different anyway so it was easy to change the clef at the same time.

One thing that melts my brain is alto trombone reading tenor clef. Just one more thing I haven’t practiced enough.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Some editions have the horn music in E-flat, so I just read the music exactly how I read B-flat transposed treble clef when I have a tenor trombone in my hands.....very simple. For the horn parts in F (played on alto), I read the music as if I am reading treble clef in concert pitch on a tenor.....works perfectly.

Lindberg mentioned in a video that this is his preferred way to read alto trombone music. He writes out the parts so that it feels like playing tenor trombone reading tenor clef.

Im sure he can read and play alto clef if he wants to. Whatever works…

I wrote out the Mozart horn concerto I performed at my last recital in alto clef. I could play it fine from the Eb horn part, but I wanted to blow it up and make the page turns different anyway so it was easy to change the clef at the same time.

One thing that melts my brain is alto trombone reading tenor clef. Just one more thing I haven’t practiced enough.

Funny you should mention the thing about reading tenor clef while playing alto! I just had a conversation this morning with one of my students (while he was playing in alto clef) about this problem. I was trying to explain to him that I occasionally default alto trombone positions accidentally while reading alto clef on tenor. On the flip-flop, I sometimes default tenor trombone positions while reading tenor clef on alto trombone.

Thus, I try to target my weaknesses:

*Regularly read tenor clef while playing alto.
*Regularly read alto clef while playing tenor.

[harrisonreed]

At the end of the day, with photoscore, you can have the part in whatever transposition or clef you want in almost no time at all, with the bonus of now having it in digital sheet music that you can manipulate.

I don't know what world anyone who plays alto trombone lives in where they are stressing about sight reading music or reading clefs other than school world -- there is such a limited repertoire. Life is too short.

The ones who use alto to cover french horn parts in a BQ, yeah, that would be a useful skill to learn to read that music on the fly.

[BGuttman]

Stewbones43 modified his Conn 36H to be in in D with an A attachment. Using this arrangement he could read alto clef parts using tenor positions. I guess whatever floats your boat.

I like to read the Eb horn concerti using the alto as a Bb transposing instrument ("low C" is 2nd partial in 1st position, just like 2nd line Bb in bass clef is 2nd partial in 1st position on a tenor). Come to think of it, that's reading tenor clef! For reading F parts I use mezzo-soprano clef.

[MTbassbone]

My vote is piano. Given the instrumentation I would think the piano would be able to provide a richer sound and greater dynamic range. Personally I feel more confident playing with piano from the stand point of articulation and dynamics. Have you given consideration to playing with orchestra. The instrumentation is rather small so it might be easier to put together particularly when considering the large instrumentation of the "standard" trombone repertoire.

[robcat2075]

Here is some orchestral music by Mozart, transcribed for organ.

Probably not a trivial transformation, but it could work well.




I recall attending a faculty trombone recital at UNT; my former teacher Royce Lumpkin playing works explicitly written for trombone and organ.

It began well enough but midst about the third piece it got very quiet and there was a long stretch with just the soloist playing. He stopped, walked over to the organ hutch, they sotto voce'd to each other for a bit, then he announced from the stage...

"It seems the organ has died..."

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Oh my! Marriage of Figaro on organ? I appreciate the post, but that is one piece that looses ALL CLARITY on organ. robcat, I think you have steered my decision in the "stay away from organ" direction for the concerti. Think about all of those Allegro movements in the Mozart horn concertos.....they need to be nimble, light and have CLARITY. Obviously, a talented organist could create a lighter sound with stop choices, etc... However, hearing that orchestral piece on organ has definitely influenced my thinking.

[harrisonreed]

Oh my! Marriage of Figaro on organ? I appreciate the post, but that is one piece that looses ALL CLARITY on organ. robcat, I think you have steered my decision in the "stay away from organ" direction for the concerti. Think about all of those Allegro movements in the Mozart horn concertos.....they need to be nimble, light and have CLARITY. Obviously, a talented organist could create a lighter sound with stop choices, etc... However, hearing that orchestral piece on organ has definitely influenced my thinking.

Yeah.... But you don't have to mic an organ 30' away. That lost clarity because it was the sound of the church, not the organ.

I guess I'll just have to experiment. Orchestra is out, because I'm doing this recording project myself and I can't afford that.

I guess I'll add one more piece of info, and that's that I want to make an interesting, FUN recording. Fun to record, fun to listen to. It doesn't have to be some deathly serious recreation of Mozart's mind, just a new take on music that is already awesome and speaks for itself.

[robcat2075]

OK, howabout...

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, I think Mozart would have probably liked the second one better.

We all saw how Beeth-oven preferred modern rock instruments as soon as he encountered them in the mall in Bill and Ted's, so Mozart definitely would have as well.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yeah, I'm digging the guitar interpretation.

[timothy42b]

I guess I'll add one more piece of info, and that's that I want to make an interesting, FUN recording. Fun to record, fun to listen to. It doesn't have to be some deathly serious recreation of Mozart's mind, just a new take on music that is already awesome and speaks for itself.

I suspect if you want non-trombonists to like it, piano might not be the way to go. I think for the average person piano brings up associations with academic recital type performances, dry and boring.

On the radio this weekend I heard a trio of clarinet, cello and piano. That was a really awesome combination that to my ears worked perfectly, just the right amount of contrast and blend. That's hard to do with trombone and piano.

[robcat2075]

The more unusual your accompanying body is, the less the performance will be about you, even if you are playing a horn concerto on a trombone.

[robcat2075]

If I were going to barnstorm town squares and hospital wards with my Mozart horn concerto act I think I'd get one of these to accompany me...

[bassclef]

If you were going to perform the Mozart horn concerto with a keyboard accompaniment, would you choose piano, organ, or harpsichord?

Option D - Rhodes

[harrisonreed]

Sweet, thanks guys. I think I'll go with the accordion option

[Posaunus]

Sweet, thanks guys. I think I'll go with the accordion option

Good luck finding an accordionist with that kind of talent!

[Kdanielsen]

Sweet, thanks guys. I think I'll go with the accordion option

In all honesty, I'd buy a recording with accordion accompaniment.

[mbarbier]

Sweet, thanks guys. I think I'll go with the accordion option

In all honesty, I'd buy a recording with accordion accompaniment.

I think my favorite trombone album (and the one I find non trombonists tend to love) is a really fantastic trombone and accordion album by Mike Svoboda that's a mix of Frescobaldi and John Cage. It makes a beautiful combination where you often can't tell what's what. Totally incredible combination... it pairs so much better than piano and trombone! so if you find an accordion player you can't go wrong!

I really love your idea Harrison of finding something that's not just piano. I think organ could potentially be a really lovely sound!

[robcat2075]

Another possibility is to keep the piano... and lose the trombone.

I had heard of Flanders and Swann before but had not actually heard them before this...

[Posaunus]

I had heard of Flanders and Swann before but had not actually heard them before this...

Only the Brits could do this! Bravo!