Large rim question

[CTBrass]

I currently play on a mouthpiece with a large rim and have found that it fixed a variety of issues in my playing. Mostly chipping notes. I was also surprised to find that my endurance actually increased and my high register doesn’t suffer at all. I definitely understand the concept of “the mouthpiece needs to fit the face” and I do not have large/full lips by any means but I still find that the large rim is the most comfortable and effective mouthpiece. I’ve struggled with this because I’ve always been told/under the impression that only people with large lips should play large mouthpieces or only super human players…maybe it’s time to rethink these mouthpiece stereotypes? Just wondering what everyone else thinks about this.

[Burgerbob]

Doug Elliot and others can chime in, but lips have nothing to do with rim diameter. It's about the underlying structure of teeth, jaw, etc.

Otherwise we wouldn't see many fleshy trumpet or horn players.

[Vegasbound]

You should talk to Doug Elliott

[hyperbolica]

I currently play on a mouthpiece with a large rim and have found that it fixed a variety of issues in my playing. Mostly chipping notes. I was also surprised to find that my endurance actually increased and my high register doesn’t suffer at all. I definitely understand the concept of “the mouthpiece needs to fit the face” and I do not have large/full lips by any means but I still find that the large rim is the most comfortable and effective mouthpiece. I’ve struggled with this because I’ve always been told/under the impression that only people with large lips should play large mouthpieces or only super human players…maybe it’s time to rethink these mouthpiece stereotypes? Just wondering what everyone else thinks about this.

Many people including me have had the same experience as you. I played 5G for the first 30 years of playing. Doug Elliott changed my ideas of what should work, and now I play a much bigger rim with about the same cup, depending on the horn. Like you, I stopped splitting as many notes. I think my tone has improved, and my flexibility to play other instruments has also improved. And I stopped spending money on tenor mouthpieces.

[JebBishop]

Similar experience here, including getting good advice about it from Doug Elliott. Went from Bach 6.5 size rims to Bach 4 size (Doug's LT 102). Considering trying a 103.

[Doug Elliott]

Lots of misconceptions out there.

[Bach5G]

A question for DE: is there an optimal size for each player? Or is there a range of sizes, say from 1.01 to 1.04 that might work for a given player?

[Doug Elliott]

First of all it's important to be playing correctly for your face/embouchure type. Otherwise any testing for size is unreliable. Try going bigger, one size at a time, until the sound loses focus or becomes more work to keep it together. That's one size too far, or maybe two sizes too far. Look for a size that allows full range, top and bottom, with good full sound.
"Optimal size" can change depending on correctness of playing mechanics and/or or level of development. It's not as much about strength as most people assume.

[harrisonreed]

Just like you need to have a bike seat at the right height for your legs to function correctly riding a bike, you must have the correct size rim ID for your embouchure to function properly.

Try riding correctly on a kids bike as an adult. It makes no sense. For most, they need a larger ID than has been the conventional wisdom. They just don't know how to move their embouchure yet, so they are still "riding a kids bike".

[Ozzlefinch]

I play two sizes about 90% of the time: a 12C and 6 1/2A. Generally speaking, the mouthpiece I use will depend on the horn I'm playing.

One size doesn't fit all, and there's no real formula you can use to figure it out since it's based on many variables that are different for each person and each horn. So try out half a dozen sizes and see which ones work best for your situation. You also don't have to feel that you need to settle on just one size, if a different size works better in a different situation, then use it. I don't think there's really any other way to do it.

[JebBishop]

I wonder how people who are very adept at doubling on trumpet and/or tuba fit into this conversation, also.

For me, going from a 100 to a 102 rim was beneficial. But I can hack around ok on a cornet, and if I wanted to I could probably get pretty good at it. So it can't be that the cornet rim size just doesn't work on my face.

[BGuttman]

I wonder how people who are very adept at doubling on trumpet and/or tuba fit into this conversation, also.

For me, going from a 100 to a 102 rim was beneficial. But I can hack around ok on a cornet, and if I wanted to I could probably get pretty good at it. So it can't be that the cornet rim size just doesn't work on my face.

Reginald Fink used to talk about different diameter depressions forming on the embouchure and you need to make sure the mouthpiece rims do not overlap to "confuse" the different grooves.

That said, I have had little long-term success on cornet, trumpet, or French Horn. I have had good success on tuba, but need a smallish mouthpiece. In fact, a Helleberg style with a modest rim and a deep cup works best for me. My bass trombone mouthpiece is a 1.12" rim and my Helleberg tuba mouthpiece is a 1.25" rim. I manage to keep both under control when I am in good practice.

[Klimchak]

I wonder how people who are very adept at doubling on trumpet and/or tuba fit into this conversation, also.

For me, going from a 100 to a 102 rim was beneficial. But I can hack around ok on a cornet, and if I wanted to I could probably get pretty good at it. So it can't be that the cornet rim size just doesn't work on my face.

As a middle school band director that spends at least a decent bit of time everyday playing trumpet, I certainly have some issues with too big of a rim diameter. As much as I like 1.02 and 1.03 diameters when I am playing nothing but trombone (mostly a .508” sized horn, but also a large tenor if needed), but really struggle when I have to play a good bit of trumpet. I tried the crossover mouthpieces, but a regular trumpet mouthpiece works better and sounds better. At this point, I have pretty much settled on a 1.01 sized rim to have all the benefits of a slightly larger rim, but allows me to go back and forth with trumpet easily.

[hyperbolica]

I wonder how people who are very adept at doubling on trumpet and/or tuba fit into this conversation, also.

For me, going from a 100 to a 102 rim was beneficial. But I can hack around ok on a cornet, and if I wanted to I could probably get pretty good at it. So it can't be that the cornet rim size just doesn't work on my face.

I changed from 5g (~99-100) to DE 104. Took a couple of weeks, but worked great. I've had a hard time doubling on bass trombone (with a ~112) but I'm having more success with a tuba (~120-122).

The big improvement was that before I started using big rims, I couldn't change from a 5g on 547 to a 6 1/2 on anything smaller. Now I use a 104 rim on all tenors, 485-547 bores, just changing cups. Moving to bigger rims works ok for me, moving to smaller ones doesn't.

[blast]

Let me just throw a couple of grenades in here.....
Psychology and fashion.
If you think something will work, and I mean really think it...more often than not, it does work. The mind is indeed most powerful.
Fashion is a big thing, even in brass playing....what we play now would have been thought ridiculous at the turn of the 20th century ,especially on the mouthpiece front. I am old enough to remember when a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece was considered a big mouthpiece, now it's considered small. The mouthpiece has not changed...fashion has. We are able to deal with a wide range of mouthpiece sizes as humans, from tuba to trumpet and all sizes in between. Facial construction variability means some folk will gravitate to bigger mouthpiece instruments and some to smaller mouthpiece instruments in an effort to find the easiest and most natural means of musical expression on a brass instrument.
The other element is human nature and the search for the 'magic fix' to avoid admitting that our instrumental shortcomings are largely the result of our own limitations of time and talent. The search for the magic mouthpiece has swelled many coffers over the years and will continue to do so.
If all this sounds negative, it is not intended to be. Bottom line, play what the hell you want too and enjoy making music. Just realise that there is no magic instrument, no magic mouthpiece and no substitute for practice .

[Doug Elliott]

Musical demands have changed over the years. And there has been a certain amount of "evolution" in prevalent embouchures due to orthodontics, especially in the US. Dental structures that would have been ignored in the early 20th century are commonly fixed now, bringing jaws and teeth in line and in many cases actually changing embouchure types toward favoring larger mouthpieces.

It's more than just fad or fashion.

[imsevimse]

I play all sizes of trombone mouthpieces and lately added trumpet-, comet-, french horn- and flugel-mouthpieces too. What I think is important is to practice all mouthpieces you want to play or else it does not work. Time is limited. I would like to learn play all instruments equally well but I guess even if I quit my day job and played all day long I would still not have the time I need. I guess it is limited a lot by talent.

/Tom

[Matt K]

I guess it would depend on what constitutes a fad. Wasn’t kleinhammer playing a schilke 60 in the 1960s? I recall Doug yeo indicating he also played something similar when he was a student. Maybe it depends on how pervasive it’s use was throughout the time period but if the 1.5 was popular from… what mid 1930s(?) to ??? It’s obviously still popular… seems to me that neither are passing fads but tools in the toolbox. Also depends on what else constitutes a large rim. Is a 59 also large? 58?

[Trombo]

The other element is human nature and the search for the 'magic fix' to avoid admitting that our instrumental shortcomings are largely the result of our own limitations of time and talent. The search for the magic mouthpiece has swelled many coffers over the years and will continue to do so.
If all this sounds negative, it is not intended to be. Bottom line, play what the hell you want too and enjoy making music. Just realise that there is no magic instrument, no magic mouthpiece and no substitute for practice .

Gold words.

Musical demands have changed over the years. And there has been a certain amount of "evolution" in prevalent embouchures due to orthodontics, especially in the US. Dental structures that would have been ignored in the early 20th century are commonly fixed now, bringing jaws and teeth in line and in many cases actually changing embouchure types toward favoring larger mouthpieces.

It's more than just fad or fashion.

This is a very important note. Maybe that's why trombonists in Europe prefer not as big mouthpieces as in the USA. Denis Wick advised against using anything larger than 4G (26mm) on the tenor.

[hyperbolica]

When I switched from a 5g to Doug's stuff, I use the same size or smaller cup, the only part that is bigger is the rim. The bigger rim works better with my embouchure. The same cup/shank works with my same horns.

The arms race of 40 years ago was really about the myth of "filling the hall". Most of us are more likely to play in a boomy cafeteria than a purpose built music hall. We all bought gear like we played in Chicago Symphony. Most of us don't really need a 547 or a 547/562 tenor. I played the big stuff when I was in super shape and needed it for loud power gigs (Navy band and big orchestra + big venue). I don't need that anymore, playing mostly chamber gigs and small orchestra these days. Couldn't drive it anymore anyway.

Bass trombone is a different thing. I won't even go there.

[harrisonreed]

Musical demands have changed over the years. And there has been a certain amount of "evolution" in prevalent embouchures due to orthodontics, especially in the US. Dental structures that would have been ignored in the early 20th century are commonly fixed now, bringing jaws and teeth in line and in many cases actually changing embouchure types toward favoring larger mouthpieces.

It's more than just fad or fashion.

This is a very important note. Maybe that's why trombonists in Europe prefer not as big mouthpieces as in the USA. Denis Wick advised against using anything larger than 4G (26mm) on the tenor.

Ahahaha. Oh man...

I'm an American who has an overbite and slightly crooked front teeth. I refused to get braces and surgery (other than removing wisdom teeth) because I didn't want to mess my embouchure up. I play on a DE 106N rim because that is what works best with my embouchure. Hypothesis challenged.

But you are right about one thing -- teeth seem to be all sorts of messed up outside the US, but that's because American cosmetic dentistry is 90% unnecessary. It's a racket. I think in Europe, which often has a socialized healthcare system, the medical community is not pressured into selling stuff like they are in the US.

I was told at age 14 that if I didn't get braces and surgery, my jaw would lock up and I would live in pain my whole life. It would take years of braces to fix my jaw and I'd need retainers my whole life. I'm glad I called their bluff. The military dentist, who could care less about selling Invisalign, said I just needed my wisdom teeth out. Showed me an x-ray of sideways teeth in the back of my head. I'm still alive and pain free twenty years after the first mention of braces.

[Trombo]

Yes, there are always exceptions. But we are talking about general trends.

[Kevbach33]

I wonder how people who are very adept at doubling on trumpet and/or tuba fit into this conversation, also.

For me, going from a 100 to a 102 rim was beneficial. But I can hack around ok on a cornet, and if I wanted to I could probably get pretty good at it. So it can't be that the cornet rim size just doesn't work on my face.

Tuba doubler here... (Or am I a tuba player that doubles on trombone? Jk...)

I started on tuba, and to this day I have trouble getting trumpet mouthpieces to work properly. However, oddly enough French horn isn't as troublesome, and i could make the instrument work if I could learn to read the transposition correctly. Must be the depth of the pieces compared to each other (trumpet vs horn).

On the trombone side, my small tenor journey started on a 6.5AL (disliked the rim shape, size was ok), then to a 7C (a mistake except for hit band pieces, but the rim contour was better), then to a Bach 5 (approx. 101 in DE sizing, nice size and shape so far). On large tenor it is currently a Bach 5GL to keep the tenor sizes the same/close (I also have a 5GS and a normal 5G). It's possible I could go larger on tenor. But on bass, I went from a Schilke 60 down to a 59, then to a 58/Wick 1AL. My goal for all was clarity of sound and flexibility with low fatigue, and too large or small would produce too many compromises against those goals.

For me, my tuba mouthpiece is so differently large that I don't have to worry about it messing up the rim sizes that I use on the trombones. It's currently a PT-36, a not-small mouthpiece for a not-small F. Schmidt 2103, that gets the nod. I could play tuba for 2 hours and not get tired chops up and down the range, something I still struggle with on trombones. Something something practice and long tones...

[Tboorer]

Doug Elliot and others can chime in, but lips have nothing to do with rim diameter. It's about the underlying structure of teeth, jaw, etc.

Otherwise we wouldn't see many fleshy trumpet or horn players.

Absolutely spot on. I use a Laskey 67, which is the size of a back 2g. It fits my face due to my jaw and dental structure. I think. A deep version is tiring, but only a little more than usual and no more than other small but deep pieces. I use a symphony Alessi purely because I love the sound on my Elkhart conn, but I do find that I need a slightly shallower piece for principal trombone and solos depending on repertoire.

[BrassSection]

My two primary horns are trumpet and tenor trombone, with euph thrown in regularly, and French horn maybe once a month…tuba once every year or two. Trumpet is my usual practice horn, I can jump from a 12B on the trumpet to a large rim 12SC on trombone no sweat, to 6 1/5AL on euph easily, and to a 7 on the French horn and feel equally at home with any horn. After a long period of trombone or euph playing, I can feel some tiredness in the chops, switch to a song or 2 on trumpet and all is well for another hour on any horn. Funny thing is, the only MP I’m not fully happy with is the trumpet one. It works, tried larger and smaller that definitely didn’t work. Have the range and sound I need with current one, but I’m actually low brass by birth and trumpet by necessity, which may explain lack of love for the trumpet setup.

Trombone MP shown, I’d say it would fall in the large rim category.

4FC69562-C927-4C28-99B0-DD86DEAAED8E.jpeg

[Doug Elliott]

No, all of your mouthpieces are on the small side for each instrument. Talking about inside diameter, not outside.

[JeffBone44]

Doug Elliot and others can chime in, but lips have nothing to do with rim diameter. It's about the underlying structure of teeth, jaw, etc.

Otherwise we wouldn't see many fleshy trumpet or horn players.

Absolutely spot on. I use a Laskey 67, which is the size of a back 2g. It fits my face due to my jaw and dental structure. I think. A deep version is tiring, but only a little more than usual and no more than other small but deep pieces. I use a symphony Alessi purely because I love the sound on my Elkhart conn, but I do find that I need a slightly shallower piece for principal trombone and solos depending on repertoire.

If you like the Symphony Alessi but want something shallower sometimes, then you'll probably like the Solo Alessi 67.

[BrassSection]

No, all of your mouthpieces are on the small side for each instrument. Talking about inside diameter, not outside.

If that was for me, this mouthpiece knowledge rookie stands corrected.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes that was for you.

[BrassSection]

No, all of your mouthpieces are on the small side for each instrument.

That’s one reason I’m here is to learn. Hopefully I’m not too old to learn yet, even though according to one bass guitar/tuba player I’m older than dirt. Considering the source…

Wondering what my mouthpiece sizing implies to you, good or bad. French horn is the odd ball, prefer the 7 over the smaller 11 and 12 I have borrowed from my daughter and tried. Her favorite is the 12. Her horn is a double, mine is a single. Better range high and low for me with the 7. Tried larger on trumpet, larger and smaller on euph, and larger on trombone. What I’m using works best on all for me.

[CalgaryTbone]

I guess it would depend on what constitutes a fad. Wasn’t kleinhammer playing a schilke 60 in the 1960s? I recall Doug yeo indicating he also played something similar when he was a student. Maybe it depends on how pervasive it’s use was throughout the time period but if the 1.5 was popular from… what mid 1930s(?) to ??? It’s obviously still popular… seems to me that neither are passing fads but tools in the toolbox. Also depends on what else constitutes a large rim. Is a 59 also large? 58?

I believe that's about a decade or so early for when Kleinhammer moved to the Schilke 60 sized mouthpieces. He was, however an early one to adopt the larger mouthpieces. Ed Anderson played 1.5 sized equipment during his career in Cleveland, but ended up switching to a 60 when he taught at Indiana. And yes, when Doug Yeo was in school, that was around the time where Schilke 60's and Bach 1G's became very popular with bass trombonists.

Some people have been helped by a move to a larger rim on both tenor and bass, but Chris is also right that some people choose equipment based on what they see around them. Take a sensible approach - play what sounds/feels good to you, and don't be afraid to experiment to see if something else might provide better results. If not, then don't try to force it into "working", and yes, take into account that some new music/arrangements have extended the range and dynamic requirements in some genres. Find what works for you.

Jim Scott