Ringling folding, 800ish jobs gone

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Well, it's finally happened. Ringling Bros is folding. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ringling-bros-circus-ending-1.3936551

Posting this here because eighteen musicians are also losing their jobs. One more live music opportunity gone.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:12 pm

That's too bad

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:38 pm

So sorry Megan.

I just read about this on the Internews, and wondered if you'd be posting about it on TTF.

It saddens me, because I'm an "old guy" who not only enjoyed the circus myself as a child, but took my own children to performances when Ringling Bros. / Barnum & Bailey Circus came to town. It was always a great show.

Hope you can find a place to entertain the public with that Williams trombone after May.

Best wishes.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:17 am

This is so very sad. A whole unique way of life gone.... and a unique way of working as a musician.
I hope you find another outlet for your talent Megan and that you feel proud to be the last of a long tradition.

Chris Stearn

ttf_JESimmons · Post by **ttf_JESimmons** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:14 am

When I was in the union, I had the opportunity to play a couple of times when Ringling Bros. came to town. What a tremendous learning experience it was. This is a sad day.

ttf_musicofnote · Post by **ttf_musicofnote** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:38 am

Once I saw how animals are mistreated by so-called trainers in the majority of circus', I stopped going years ago. As a professional dog trainers and animal behavior consultant and knowing this abuse was not necessary - and it's not as if the circus' didn't know either, it's called expediency - refusing to participate with my wallet was my only choice. So here we have an unfortunate case of collateral damage.

If you have to ask the question "What's a few elephants or lions compared to the livelihood of employees?", then I have no other answer than what Gandhi said:
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Ringling Bros. has had over 30 years to remedy the situation through other training methods - they didn't.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:49 am

Quote from: musicofnote on Jan 15, 2017, 08:38AMOnce I saw how animals are mistreated by so-called trainers in the majority of circus', I stopped going years ago. As a professional dog trainers and animal behavior consultant and knowing this abuse was not necessary - and it's not as if the circus' didn't know either, it's called expediency - refusing to participate with my wallet was my only choice. So here we have an unfortunate case of collateral damage.

If you have to ask the question "What's a few elephants or lions compared to the livelihood of employees?", then I have no other answer than what Gandhi said:
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Ringling Bros. has had over 30 years to remedy the situation through other training methods - they didn't.

I feel ambivalence; happy for the mistreated animals no longer abused and victimized, but sad for everything else lost.

Where else will we be able to have 50 clowns climb out of a VW!

...Geezer

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:20 am

Notable...

Ringling Circus prevails in 14-year legal case; collects $16M from Humane Society, others

QuoteThe initial lawsuit claiming the elephants were abused was filed in 2000 by a former Ringling circus barn worker who was later found to have been paid at least $190,000 by the animal-rights groups to back their charges.

A judge rejected the claims following a 2009 trial.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:49 am

Quote from: musicofnote on Jan 15, 2017, 08:38AMOnce I saw how animals are mistreated by so-called trainers in the majority of circus', I stopped going years ago. As a professional dog trainers and animal behavior consultant and knowing this abuse was not necessary - and it's not as if the circus' didn't know either, it's called expediency - refusing to participate with my wallet was my only choice. So here we have an unfortunate case of collateral damage.

If you have to ask the question "What's a few elephants or lions compared to the livelihood of employees?", then I have no other answer than what Gandhi said:
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Ringling Bros. has had over 30 years to remedy the situation through other training methods - they didn't.

If you "saw" how animals are mistreated, why didn't you report it?

Or are you one of those who doesn't need to see abuse actually, you just believe every edited media you see online to be true and parrot all that PETA feeds you.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your incredibly ignorant opinion. As if I've never heard such comments from people who've never been to the circus before. Basically how dare you tell me what I have seen and have not. How dare you accuse good people of animal abuse. When these circus animals die because no one will care for them, I hope it's heavy on your conscience.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:02 am

How 'bout we not make this one political?

A trombonist and fellow forum member has lost her job--one of a shrinking number of jobs in music performance. That's really all that's germane to the main part of the forum. If you wish to start a thread about animal abuse, (and believe me--I'm very caught up in that issue) perhaps "Purely Politics" would be the place to do so.

ttf_musicofnote · Post by **ttf_musicofnote** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:06 am

I suppose th myriad videos of elephant trainers using the hook on them is falsified. Do you understand the science of reinforcement theory? Circus' belong gone, as do zoos. No one is doing any animals any favors by keeping them there. But that's generally of no consequence, right? You do understnad, that migratory animals chanined on one spot all day show neurotic behavior patterns - just to entertain humans. That is abusive. And when they "protest, they receive the hook and worse. one of the reasons Ringling Brothers stopped with the elephants. And why animals are now forbidden in circus' in several countries.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:07 am

There's a time and a place for everything.

For example, I could go on a political rant about how people should be more careful at train crossings, or I can lament the fact that two members of Tower of Power are in the hospital after being hit by a train. I prefer the latter.

ttf_musicofnote · Post by **ttf_musicofnote** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:08 am

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/10-countries-that-have-banned-wild-animals-in-circuses/

ttf_musicofnote · Post by **ttf_musicofnote** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:11 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-m-roberts/just-stop-hurting-elephants_b_11838414.html

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:16 am

musicofnote, you have made your point. I think that is enough, and other members can back off this area too.
If anyone wants to continue, start a new thread in the politics section.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:17 am

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 15, 2017, 10:02AMHow 'bout we not make this one political?

Too late!

ttf_musicofnote · Post by **ttf_musicofnote** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:20 am

I would expect you to also tell Jhereg to also cool it. He/she level some rather personal and direct attacks, whereas I did no such thing to him/her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTUol7VrHTg

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:22 am

Quote from: musicofnote on Jan 15, 2017, 10:20AMI would expect you to also tell Jhereg to also cool it. He/she level some rather personal and direct attacks, whereas I did no such thing to him/her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTUol7VrHTg

Read my previous post again.

ttf_growlerbox · Post by **ttf_growlerbox** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:22 am

Dude, she just lost her job. Give it a rest.

Megan is a trombone player. She doesn't train the animals. She's not responsible for what may or may not have happened.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:31 pm

Back to the topic:
My most sincere sympathy to you and the tradition that is ending.
And my most since thanks for the commitment and energy you and your colleagues put into keeping that tradition alive!

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:28 pm

Quote from: musicofnote on Jan 15, 2017, 10:20AMI would expect you to also tell Jhereg to also cool it. He/she level some rather personal and direct attacks, whereas I did no such thing to him/her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTUol7VrHTg

I do apologize for my tone, I am not usually so nasty, promise. However it would be nice if you could take a split second to consider a viewpoint other than your own (I know, I'm asking way too much here). You might have considered that as a circus employee, I have spent the past five years listening to comments such as the ones you've made here, over and over and over to the point of exhaustion. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, but I don't need to hear it for the umpteenth time, no one else here needs to hear it at all, and I didn't post here to start an animal rights argument. As the mods say, this isn't the right thread for the topic you want to discuss.

Apologies to everyone, and if any part of this needs to be deleted I completely understand. Thank you for being patient with me.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:38 pm

Quote from: boneagain on Jan 15, 2017, 12:31PMBack to the topic:
My most sincere sympathy to you and the tradition that is ending.
And my most since thanks for the commitment and energy you and your colleagues put into keeping that tradition alive!

Thank you. It was a lot of fun and I'm glad I got to do it! But it is a shame that no one else after this will be able to

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:37 pm

I'm surprised they can't downsize it or reinvent it into something more modern.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:59 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 15, 2017, 07:37PMI'm surprised they can't downsize it or reinvent it into something more modern.

There already are groups like that: Big Apple Circus, Circus Smirkus. I don't think a resized RBBB can compete.

It's a sad situation; sending a bunch of gifted performers into a market where their skills are underappreciated.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:20 pm

Looks like Big Apple Circus is out of the competition

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:59 pm

Maybe Feld will buy it... that's one way to downsize.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:49 pm

I think the three-ring circus concept is problematic. I went to a Ringling show in the 90s and felt that no matter where you sat in that arena, you'd be too far away from some part of the show to enjoy it.

I've been to a Cirque du Soleil show and that was entertaining but the best circus experience I've been to was a one-ring circus in Copenhagen. Apparently that circus is out of business now too, however.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:57 pm

I hope Megan will correct me, but I thought the Gold Unit of RBBB was a one-ring circus.

I heard an animal rights activist on the BBC this evening claiming that animal acts are the reason people are abandoning the circus. Yet the RBBB attendance after the elephants were removed seems to indicate otherwise.

I wonder how accurate the claims of poor treatment really are. The pictures Megan posted of some of the elephant recreation seemed to show them having a good time. Admittedly it's not as normal as running wild in the African Veldt, but they aren't subject to ivory poachers either.

ttf_slideorama · Post by **ttf_slideorama** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:21 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 15, 2017, 09:57PM
I wonder how accurate the claims of poor treatment really are. The pictures Megan posted of some of the elephant recreation seemed to show them having a good time. Admittedly it's not as normal as running wild in the African Veldt, but they aren't subject to ivory poachers either.

Bruce, it is easy to find this accurate information. The multitude of animals "owned" by the circus have already been bought and will continue a similiar existence without the privelidge of performing. Nothing political about animal equity, btw. But, yes, for another thread.

As for the musicians and performers, they will land on their feet.

I'm surprised the live musicians were even tolerated the last 10-15 years, honestly, if money had been an issue lately. Even the Ft. Worth Stock Show and Rodeo (more well taken care of animals, right...

) recently became canned.

I wonder if a 100 years from now the last person to actually play a trombone will make news for his or her final glissando...

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:24 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 15, 2017, 08:49AMI feel ambivalence; happy for the mistreated animals no longer abused and victimized, but sad for everything else lost.

Where else will we be able to have 50 clowns climb out of a VW!

...Geezer

Washington DC?

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:07 am

Lol. Good one!

We still have the circus alive and well in the USA. It's called "County Fair".

...Geezer

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:03 am

Well I guess this thread merits to be closed now.

Thank you musicofnote for bringing this thread completely off-Topic.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:17 am

I believe you are referencing something from about 24 hours ago.

I think the point we are trying to make is: why do they have to fold up and take with it a slice of American culture, not to mention casting all those jobs out? There are other shining examples of circus or circus-like endeavors still apparently thriving. What's wrong with the ownership that they can't find a way to continue. Yeah, maybe they would have to re-invent themselves. Big deal. Not like it's been done before. Is this post political?

...Geezer

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:37 am

Maybe we see so much crazy, dangerous stuff on the internet every day that there isn't as much demand to see safer versions of it live at a circus.

So Ringling was already down to one ring? Not much room to downsize then.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:00 am

I subbed a few shows for Megan recently.

They HAVE reinvented themselves since the last time I played it - I don't remember exactly when they changed from hiring locals to a self-contained band. The music is very techno, no marches and gallops like before.

I thought it was an excellent show, very well received by the audience and was surprised at the low attendance. Only one show looked close to sold out. And ticket prices were very reasonable, I'm sure far too low to sustain it.

It's all not much different from the situation with orchestras.

Video games have changed the whole concept of entertainment.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:38 am

That's an interesting experience and observation. I guess we all have to get used to a "new normal" as is often said. It's sad and yet - if given the chance - how many of us would rather live the rest of our lives out in the 19th century? Progress doesn't ALWAYS mean for the better...

...Geezer

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:55 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 16, 2017, 08:00AM
I thought it was an excellent show, very well received by the audience and was surprised at the low attendance.

They like it if they get in but getting them in is difficult.

So basically it's a promotion and image problem rather than a content problem.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:20 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 16, 2017, 05:07AMWe still have the circus alive and well in the USA. It's called "County Fair".Two very different things, my friend. One does find circus-style acts at fairs, but they're not the focus of the fair, and (with all due respect to the performers) they're not on the same scale nor of the same level of talent that you'd find at RBBB.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 16, 2017, 07:37AMSo Ringling was already down to one ring? Not much room to downsize then.That was the Gold Unit; it was an attempt to offer a smaller-scale circus for smaller venues. RBBB shut it down a few years back. The Red Unit and Blue Unit are (soon to be were) three-ring shows.

As for downsizing? Consider that RBBB had to shut down the Gold Unit, which was, essentially, a downsized version of the show. Also consider that a downsized RBBB would have looked a lot like the Big Apple Circus, and it filed for bankruptcy in November of 2016.

RBBB has been remaking itself constantly for a long time. They abandoned the big top long ago. The sideshow and the menagerie are long gone, as is the traditional circus music. They've adopted some elements of "nouveau cirque" but have also tried to preserve the best parts of the classic American circus of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Sure, they could go full-on nouveau cirque, but Cirque du Soleil has a 30+ year head start and has pretty well saturated the market.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:42 am

I'm very sorry to see this venue go under, and see musicians and other entertainers loose their livelihood. Children will miss out an an experience that brought many of us much joy in our youth, and we will miss seeing the wonder and joy in our children and grandchildren's eyes.

ttf_Bimmerman · Post by **ttf_Bimmerman** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:46 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 16, 2017, 08:55AMThey like it if they get in but getting them in is difficult.

So basically it's a promotion and image problem rather than a content problem.

I'd agree with the promotion aspect for sure. Growing up in the 90s/00s I went to the circus (Shriner-related?) with my grandparents a few times a year and really enjoyed it. I can't remember the last time I've seen an advertisement for (any) circus, either in the Denver area or now the SF Bay Area. Part of that is likely due to cord cutting and not listening to the radio when driving, but still, I never saw billboards or anything.

I was never bothered by the image of the circus, personally. When I was little, I was too young to know anything shady; when I was older, the circuses had gone / were going to great lengths to improve their image and word of mouth, so....wasn't an issue for me. Bigger issue was I never knew when it was in town once I had a driver's license.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:14 am

I have to wonder if it's a move on their part to divest themselves of 146 years of what they might consider to be baggage; by dissolving the corporation, selling off all their assets and eliminating all obligations & liabilities; past, present and future. Then they reform as a new entity and start fresh with a modern brand. Any plausibility here?

...Geezer

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:21 am

Jhereg, I have enjoyed from afar your blog posts about life on the train, in the band, with the animals, on excursions,

http://taz-39.livejournal.com/

You've had a very cool performing career thus far.

It's sad this chapter is closing - I have good thoughts for you and your friends and I'm thankful you shared your journey with us.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:40 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 16, 2017, 11:14AMI have to wonder if it's a move on their part to divest themselves of 146 years of what they might consider to be baggage; by dissolving the corporation, selling off all their assets and eliminating all obligations & liabilities; past, present and future. Then they reform as a new entity and start fresh with a modern brand. Any plausibility here?

...Geezer

Not for Feld, the owners, since they will continue in business with other shows they produce (per an article posted previously).

The Ringling circus seems to be a show they produce rather than a company of its own.

It's not a bankruptcy so liabilities and obligations aren't made to disappear.

They probably have been letting old obligations run out and avoiding any new obligations for the last few years, knowing that this was going to happen.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:06 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 15, 2017, 09:57PMI hope Megan will correct me, but I thought the Gold Unit of RBBB was a one-ring circus.

I heard an animal rights activist on the BBC this evening claiming that animal acts are the reason people are abandoning the circus. Yet the RBBB attendance after the elephants were removed seems to indicate otherwise.

I wonder how accurate the claims of poor treatment really are. The pictures Megan posted of some of the elephant recreation seemed to show them having a good time. Admittedly it's not as normal as running wild in the African Veldt, but they aren't subject to ivory poachers either.

The Gold Unit was indeed a one-ring circus, although they used other parts of the arena too. It hasn't been a "true" one-ring on any of the shows for some time...acts transition from one ring to another. Because it was realized that having three things going on at once was kinda distracting. But you're right, even when transitioning like that it can be hard to see everything

The activist that you heard seems to be partly right. People aren't leaving because of the animal acts per se; it's more that legislation has been passed that makes it near impossible for a circus to tour with animals. If you're supposed to be in VA one week and TN the next week and CA the week after that, you have to know what the laws are about circus animals in each state. And with each passing year they've become more and more anti-circus. In VA there's a law that all animals must be exercised and watered every 4 hours during travel (this is impossible. You can't have elephants unloading alongside a live railroad track just because "it's been 4 hours", you have to do it when it's SAFE). In TN there's a law that the tiger cages have to be a certain height and there needs to be a sniper in the wings. In LA you can't handle the elephants in a certain way, and in San Francisco you can't use a bullhook, and in some CA cities you can't have elephants at all. So the choices are, fight that legislation...alone, since the general public doesn't usually care to show up to vote on it...pay fines that are very expensive but allow you to do something technically illegal, or modify your show to the point of ridiculousness for every single city we pass through. You can't just make the elephants disappear for particular anti-circus cities, they're living things for God's sake. So in that sense, anti-circus legislation (i.e. the presence of animals in the circus) is at least partially what caused this to happen.

But it's also true that the majority of everyday people would have liked to see elephants. They went to the circus specifically to see the elephants. So when the elephants were removed thanks to this legislation, the majority, who actually did want to see the elephants, had no reason to go to the circus any more. Tadaa.

About the animal thing, Ringling's elephants are Asian, meaning they are natively from INDIA, not AFRICA. Indian elephants are generally not poached. They are also domesticated, and have been for hundreds of years, just like the horse is in America. Culturally we are not used to thinking of elephants as "domestic", but in other countries they most certainly are. I agree with you that ideally elephants and other animals should be allowed to roam free in their natural habitat. However ending the circus does nothing to make that ideal a reality. Elephants and tigers, both from India, are clinging to the last scraps of habitat available to them (India has had a MASSIVE population boom in recent years). Tigers especially have about 7% of their habitat remaining. the other 93% has been taken over by humans.

As for animal abuse, many people have this "Water for Elephants" view of the circus. This isn't the 1920s. People who work with circus animals are college-educated, with degrees in animal husbandry, sciences, and veterinary care. Prior to working at the circus, they held jobs at animal hospitals (where you'd take your pet), zoos, pet stores, sanctuaries, etc. One does not magically become an animal abuser simply because one works for the circus. I am 100% certain that animal abuse has happened on the circus, especially in the past when requirements and animal protection laws were nonexistent. But it is NOT common, widespread, or acceptable to ANYONE. I would not be working here if the animals were being abused.

I didn't look carefully at the links and such shared by that person who was trolling earlier, but I can guarantee that I've seen all of that media before and know an awful lot about its origins. If anyone has questions about, for example, photos of baby elephant training, I know where the images came from and why people tend to think they show abuse. If any of y'all have questions I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability. I know the animal staff here quite well and anything that I don't know from firsthand experience, I can ask about.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I'm happy to have a grown-up discussion on this subject (probably in the Politics section) if it can be done without nastiness

Sorry this ended up being so long and sorta back into the topic we were trying to get off of. But thank you for bringing up these great questions and thoughts.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:18 pm

Quote from: slideorama on Jan 15, 2017, 10:21PMBruce, it is easy to find this accurate information. The multitude of animals "owned" by the circus have already been bought and will continue a similiar existence without the privelidge of performing. Nothing political about animal equity, btw. But, yes, for another thread.

As for the musicians and performers, they will land on their feet.

I'm surprised the live musicians were even tolerated the last 10-15 years, honestly, if money had been an issue lately. Even the Ft. Worth Stock Show and Rodeo (more well taken care of animals, right...

) recently became canned.

I wonder if a 100 years from now the last person to actually play a trombone will make news for his or her final glissando...

It is accurate to say that circus animals have been abused in the past. It is not accurate, or right, to apply the horrible actions of a few horrible people to an entire industry.

I'm sorry, I don't want to keep dwelling on the politics of this, but if people are going to continue implying or accusing myself and the people I work with of animal abuse, I'm not going to sit quietly by and take it. It's a serious insult.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:23 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 15, 2017, 08:49AMI feel ambivalence; happy for the mistreated animals no longer abused and victimized, but sad for everything else lost.

Where else will we be able to have 50 clowns climb out of a VW!

...Geezer

You're entitled to your opinion but I won't stand for people talking like all circuses abuse animals. Please stop. Or if you have questions, ask. I literally stand next to these animals daily.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:25 pm

Quote from: mwpfoot on Jan 16, 2017, 11:21AMJhereg, I have enjoyed from afar your blog posts about life on the train, in the band, with the animals, on excursions,

http://taz-39.livejournal.com/

You've had a very cool performing career thus far.

It's sad this chapter is closing - I have good thoughts for you and your friends and I'm thankful you shared your journey with us.

Thanks! It's been fun. On to the next thing

Everyone who's saying part of the problem was promotion, TOTALLY agree. We used to have to correct whoever was running the twitter feed, they kept posting the wrong info for the wrong shows and such. Ridiculous. Plus we weren't promoted on tv/in public nearly as much as in past years.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:25 pm

Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about how they will treat you (and the other musicians). Animal shows will continue. How about Siegfried and Roy (I think one of them got mauled by one of their animals, FWIW). They perform in Vegas.

And I'm sure your elephants are better treated than domesticated elephants of Myanmar or Thailand.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:15 pm

Since it's been made clear that dissenting opinions aren't welcome. I think it's in bad taste to continue to make points in favor of the circus's treatment of animals. The fact that no one is arguing is more out of kindness or censorship than lack of valid opposition.

I was very supporting of Jhereg's position at first, but this thread is rapidly becoming a soapbox for those who criticize proponents of animal rights. As a proponent of animal rights, I feel very much attacked by this thread.

Keep it up, and you'll see things get out of hand post haste.

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:40 pm

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 16, 2017, 04:15PMSince it's been made clear that dissenting opinions aren't welcome. I think it's in bad taste to continue to make points in favor of the circus's treatment of animals. The fact that no one is arguing is more out of kindness or censorship than lack of valid opposition.

I was very supporting of Jhereg's position at first, but this thread is rapidly becoming a soapbox for those who criticize proponents of animal rights. As a proponent of animal rights, I feel very much attacked by this thread.

Keep it up, and you'll see things get out of hand post haste.

Agree and I apologize. That's not what I wanted at all. This post was to just let people know what happened. I'll go back and try to fix what I wrote, and if necessary hopefully the mods will delete the whole shebang. All respect to you, and let's get off this awkward subject.