How to improve my resume so it doesn't get tossed?

[TexasTBone]

Numerous pro players have told me my resume doesn't matter as long as I can play. Well, what I've been finding out lately is that auditions for jobs I know I can do always seem to start out with a resume-only round. This inevitably leads to mine getting tossed. I'm trying to figure out how to beef up my resume so I can actually get offered an audition so the committees can at least hear me play. It's the vicious chicken and the egg scenario where I need experience to get jobs that give me the experience to get the jobs that give me the experience ... etc. etc.

My perception of what's wrong with my resume is two primary things: 1.) I have a large gap since I last played professionally, even though I have been playing with community groups for 15+ years and freelancing; and 2.) My musical education is from a school that apparently has a poor reputation among some professional players.

I sub regularly with a regional orchestra and I have an audition for the sub list for another orchestra next month. I figure these might give me a shot at a core player spot if one eventually comes open. I also just sat in as a ringer for a youth orchestra show.

I welcome any advice you folks might have that will help me get over the initial resume hurdle and actually start booking some auditions. Thanks.

[WilliamLang]

take some lessons with members of the target orchestras you are looking at, or any place within traveling distance.

I also don't recommend taking creative shortcuts on your resume. keep networking, taking gigs as they come up, and be willing to take any audition you can afford to go to (whether it's a full time or part time orchestra, they are all super competitive now, due to the overall lack of jobs compared to amount of decent players.)

[MTbassbone]

If you do not get invited to an audition after the resume round offer to send a recording.

[Richard3rd]

I have a large gap since I last played professionally, even though I have been playing with community groups for 15+ years and freelancing;

I would guess this is the reason.

[TromboneTallie]

I would think the best way these days to build your resume is to create or record new music, make it available for critique online, and then point to that. Musicians make music, not resumes. Resumes sort of have to make themselves.

[TexasTBone]

I would think the best way these days to build your resume is to create or record new music, make it available for critique online, and then point to that. Musicians make music, not resumes. Resumes sort of have to make themselves.

But how do I reflect these things on my resume when people want to see a resume first? I'm not sure "plays music on Youtube" is going to cut it.

[TromboneTallie]

I would think the best way these days to build your resume is to create or record new music, make it available for critique online, and then point to that. Musicians make music, not resumes. Resumes sort of have to make themselves.

But how do I reflect these things on my resume when people want to see a resume first? I'm not sure "plays music on Youtube" is going to cut it.

^^
I would definitely start here. This is a good place to start. There's a lot you can unpack. You're 100% right -- putting that on a resume would be a mistake. That doesn't mean social media is unimportant or that there isn't a better way to have it on your resume.

If the music world is so cutthroat, not having a website, music streams, portfolio, etc, linked directly under your name and email / phone number, maybe with a QR code, puts you at a disadvantage from the getgo.

People often do more than that for resumes in career fields that are less competative. Don't forget that it is statistically easier to get in the NFL than make a living as a performing trombonist.

[bwilliams]

Make s##t up.

[GabrielRice]

take some lessons with members of the target orchestras you are looking at, or any place within traveling distance.

This. If your resume is not strong enough on it's own YET, people need to know you and have heard you play.

Don't "make s##t up." I'm sure that was written in jest, but people have done it. It will bite you later.

And sorry everyone, but your youtube channel is not going to cut it. That's not to say it's not a good thing to do; social media presence is fantastic for building a teaching studio, promoting your creative work, etc. But for the resume screening of an orchestral audition? Nope.

[TromboneTallie]

take some lessons with members of the target orchestras you are looking at, or any place within traveling distance.

And sorry everyone, but your youtube channel is not going to cut it. That's not to say it's not a good thing to do; social media presence is fantastic for building a teaching studio, promoting your creative work, etc. But for the resume screening of an orchestral audition? Nope.

Bummer. I guess the OP is out of luck unless they want to bribe and schmooze their way in outside of the audition.

It makes a lot of sense, in a "one of the good old boys" sort of way.

[GabrielRice]

[Bummer. I guess the OP is out of luck unless they want to bribe and schmooze their way in outside of the audition.

It makes a lot of sense, in a "one of the good old boys" sort of way.

That's one way of looking at it, for sure.

Another way is that whatever you've learned in school, however much you've practiced your fundamentals, your solo playing, and your excerpts, feedback from the people out doing the performing work is incredibly valuable. If you want to work with them you need to know what their expectations are, what they need to hear in a colleague's playing. Which is likely not exactly what you were taught in school.

This will not only help you get an audition in the first place, it will help you in the audition itself. And not in the "one of the good old boys" way, in the blind audition "that was a player with their s##t together" way.

[Kdanielsen]

OP: are you including your sub work with pro groups on your resume?

Gabe is right, btw.

[TexasTBone]

OP: are you including your sub work with pro groups on your resume?

Gabe is right, btw.

Yes. Right now I'm concentrating on trying to get on sub lists in the hope a core player vacancy happens or it helps me get some contract work for shows.

[Matt K]

I have a big ol box of music for duets through various trombone ensembles for this occasion. If I were in your shoes, I'd get a lesson or ask a local university professor (or several); depending on how busy they seem to be/caliber of networking you're trying to get into. I've done a decent amount of networking of playing trios/quartets with a professor and grad/dma students they have. You get on someones sub list probably. Especially students because they have exams and stuff frequently so they can't say yes to everything. If the professor was invited but had other obligations so they passed it onto a student, then the student passes on to you... maybe you meet someone there, etc.

At the end of the day, if you want to play music you probably shouldn't look at such networking cynically... you meet people who also like playing music and make music with them. It's a lot easier imo than networking in my world (programming/IT) because a lot of people in this profession are "9-5 please for the love of God don't talk about work to me outside of my work hours". But in music, typically people enjoy making music with other musicians provided they have the time or they're already setup to give people lessons.

[TexasTBone]

It's not that I'm cynical about networking, it's that the people everyone tells me to talk to don't seem to be interested in talking to me.

[Matt K]

Totally fair. We are living in timeswhere networking might be harder if people are being cautious about limiting interactions. Having just gone through Covid, I certainly understand that perspective. Getting your foot in the door can be a tough nut to crack.

[BrianJohnston]

Resume & the hang are equally important. Hard work is the answer to both of those.

[VJOFan]

Just make it clear why there is a break in your professional career and show what you have done recently to maintain/rebuild your playing to the calibre it was when you last had a gig.

Start with that:
-Principle trombone, Blah Blah SO, 2002-2007
-Left orchestra to concentrate on ______________
-Highlight of recent freelance work include
-Blah
-Blah
-Blah

After that include your musical training to show your pedigree

A short statement of purpose at the top just below your personal information, to show that you aren't just messing around, and really want to get a gig would help too.

[CalgaryTbone]

One difficulty for the OP is that most orchestras and other classical organizations that are hiring specify 1-page resumes. Those organizations are looking for "just the facts" with - where you have played, in what capacity, and when did you do it? A bit about your studies (where/when and what teacher(s) ). Depending on where the opening is and how prestigious the position is, there are anywhere from 50 applicants to hundreds. The reason that some places "screen" applicants is that there are only so many hours that can be devoted to hearing auditions for the job, so they are going to prioritize people with a track record.

My suggestions: start making some recordings of standard audition material. Good practice, and you might have enough material saved that you can put a tape together from that saved stuff. If not, you will still be further along in your preparation.

Also, get some lessons with well-known performers/players (live or over Zoom). Get honest feedback, and if they are encouraging about how you are playing, see if they would be willing to be a reference next time you are applying somewhere.

If your resume is turned down by an orchestra or some other group, a call or email to the contact person that was listed, asking if they would consider either a recording or a reference (or both) may get you another chance to be considered. I would advise against sending anything unsolicited - it would probably not get noticed.

There are occasionally instances where someone without much experience in this type of situation gets heard based on a recording or recommendation, and wins the job, or at least makes a very good showing. If that happens, add that to the resume (semi-finalist for ...orchestra ?/2022). That will make your resume stand out more for the next time.

Jim Scott

[Ozzlefinch]

I know that when I screen resumes for my industry, I don't look for skills. Everybody applying has roughly the same skills, that doesn't separate a candidate out from the crowd. I want to know WHO you are, not WHAT you are. I look for somebody who will be a good fit personality and work ethic wise. I can train anybody for skill, but not for attitude. And if you were an Eagle Scout, fly that flag proudly on your resume- you will be surprised how much weight that actually carries.

And don't be generic with your skills. Instead of writing "Played 2nd 'bone in community theater" write "Received 4 star reviews from Local Post newspaper for work in XYZ Little Theater". As an interviewer and resume screener, that answer actually gives me something to work with and something to talk to you about. It's my "in" to your personality and paints and clearer picture of your potential skill set. Remember, working with a TEAM is as important as your individual skills. Give the employer a REASON to talk to YOU instead of the other 400 trombone players that can also play scales. You are an individual human person, not an algorithm.

Try writing your resume around your PASSION for wanting the job more so than your generic skill set. Make the employer WANT you on their team. Give them something interesting that separates you out from all the other trombone players, something unique to you and something you can speak about with PASSION.

[WGWTR180]

I know that when I screen resumes for my industry, I don't look for skills. Everybody applying has roughly the same skills, that doesn't separate a candidate out from the crowd. I want to know WHO you are, not WHAT you are. I look for somebody who will be a good fit personality and work ethic wise. I can train anybody for skill, but not for attitude. And if you were an Eagle Scout, fly that flag proudly on your resume- you will be surprised how much weight that actually carries.

And don't be generic with your skills. Instead of writing "Played 2nd 'bone in community theater" write "Received 4 star reviews from Local Post newspaper for work in XYZ Little Theater". As an interviewer and resume screener, that answer actually gives me something to work with and something to talk to you about. It's my "in" to your personality and paints and clearer picture of your potential skill set. Remember, working with a TEAM is as important as your individual skills. Give the employer a REASON to talk to YOU instead of the other 400 trombone players that can also play scales. You are an individual human person, not an algorithm.

Try writing your resume around your PASSION for wanting the job more so than your generic skill set. Make the employer WANT you on their team. Give them something interesting that separates you out from all the other trombone players, something unique to you and something you can speak about with PASSION.

Curious as to what "industry" you work in. In the music field there are various degrees of efficiency and everyone is definitely NOT at an equal level of professionalism. One can sit down with a teacher and play at a good level through some duets but functioning with other musicians can be challenging. As a contractor I could care less if someone is an Eagle Scout(BTW I am also an Eagle Scout)when it comes to hiring for a particular job. Everyone wants THE job. Unfortunately there are fewer jobs to be had and PASSION isn't going to cut it.

[Matt K]

I agree. I’ve done some hiring in tech and if I was someone with “Eagle Scout” written I’d probably not even notice it. My opinion isn’t necessarily correct, but I’m not an Eagle Scout. I suspect most people who have a resume cross their desk only know the smallest amount or nothing about the scouts so you’d have to take up valuable space to demonstrate why it’s relevant. Since space is so limited, I’d there’s something more job related it would be better to use that space - or leave the space empty to make it easier to read your resume imo. But that’s for my industry.

When I was reviewing resumes, I would spend about 15 seconds on each resume initially. Maybe less. You tend to get lots of resumes in the tech world from people who have zero skill in what you actually need, so I first look for keywords, primarily the languages we use and skills that we need (e.g., Python, SQL, Dimensional Modeling, etc.). Then if they have those I look at more peripheral things: their information points for what they did at the job and any measurable impact their work had (eg improved performance by x%, reduced time to deliver by y%). Then I’d probably take a call with them and do a more thorough review on the phone with them. The easier the resume is to parse to get to the phone call, the better your chances are. I’ve seen lots of resumes that were insanely dense that are almost immediate rejections because it takes so much effort to parse what’s there. Interestingly enough, there is a divided opinion on whether one should even put certifications on your resume in tech. I’ve personally never made a hire where it made a difference but I tend to think they’re worth putting there if it’s from a well known entity (Amazon, Microsoft, etc).

Not related to what’s specifically in question in this thread; just confirming that different industries have wildly different recommendations. Seems to vary a lot on the person who sees the resume too

[BGuttman]

Curious as to what "industry" you work in. In the music field there are various degrees of efficiency and everyone is definitely NOT at an equal level of professionalism. One can sit down with a teacher and play at a good level through some duets but functioning with other musicians can be challenging. As a contractor I could care less if someone is an Eagle Scout(BTW I am also an Eagle Scout)when it comes to hiring for a particular job. Everyone wants THE job. Unfortunately there are fewer jobs to be had and PASSION isn't going to cut it.

Unfortunately even good ability isn't enough either. There are too few jobs and too many candidates. I know a LOT of music school graduates who are working in other fields because they couldn't land jobs as a professional musician.

And contractors can be a problem as well. I had a gig playing in the orchestra with a chorus. The chorus liked me, the conductor liked me, but he took on a contractor who didn't like me. Maybe the contractor had a friend who he wanted to hire, maybe he didn't like the fact that I didn't graduate from a music school but went to engineering school instead. Dunno. But suddenly I was out of that job. Not that it mattered that much to me -- I was working full time as an engineer and this one was for only a couple of services a year.

[GabrielRice]

And contractors can be a problem as well. I had a gig playing in the orchestra with a chorus. The chorus liked me, the conductor liked me, but he took on a contractor who didn't like me. Maybe the contractor had a friend who he wanted to hire, maybe he didn't like the fact that I didn't graduate from a music school but went to engineering school instead. Dunno. But suddenly I was out of that job. Not that it mattered that much to me -- I was working full time as an engineer and this one was for only a couple of services a year.

Maybe the contractor wanted to hire someone for whom it mattered - that is, a full-time musician or someone trying to be one.

[WGWTR180]

And contractors can be a problem as well. I had a gig playing in the orchestra with a chorus. The chorus liked me, the conductor liked me, but he took on a contractor who didn't like me. Maybe the contractor had a friend who he wanted to hire, maybe he didn't like the fact that I didn't graduate from a music school but went to engineering school instead. Dunno. But suddenly I was out of that job. Not that it mattered that much to me -- I was working full time as an engineer and this one was for only a couple of services a year.

Maybe the contractor wanted to hire someone for whom it mattered - that is, a full-time musician or someone trying to be one.

BOOM!

[BGuttman]

And contractors can be a problem as well. I had a gig playing in the orchestra with a chorus. The chorus liked me, the conductor liked me, but he took on a contractor who didn't like me. Maybe the contractor had a friend who he wanted to hire, maybe he didn't like the fact that I didn't graduate from a music school but went to engineering school instead. Dunno. But suddenly I was out of that job. Not that it mattered that much to me -- I was working full time as an engineer and this one was for only a couple of services a year.

Maybe the contractor wanted to hire someone for whom it mattered - that is, a full-time musician or someone trying to be one.

Well, the job mattered to me as an attempt to improve my musicianship. For somebody trying to make a living as a musician it would be a joke. It barely even supplanted the income from teaching lessons. A lot of the rest of the orchestra were local music teachers.

[GabrielRice]

Well, the job mattered to me as an attempt to improve my musicianship. For somebody trying to make a living as a musician it would be a joke. It barely even supplanted the income from teaching lessons. A lot of the rest of the orchestra were local music teachers.

Well...I don't really want to argue a lot about this, but no gig is a joke to someone trying to make a living as a professional musician.

I'm almost back to my pre-covid schedule of working somewhere pretty much every week. In a span of four weeks last fall I was an emergency sub for the Boston Symphony, then a week with the Hartford Symphony, then a week with the Rhode Island Philharmonic, then a week as a ringer with the RI College Wind Ensemble. No single one of those jobs could sustain me, but I had a steady stream of income. There are employers I work for about once a month and employers I work for two or three times a year. I need and value all of them.

When I had covid a couple of weeks ago I had to sub out three different gigs. It was no joke.

Finally, I consider music teachers to be professional musicians. It's very rare that they're making much money from their teaching day jobs, and performing regularly is an important part of what they bring to teaching. I make between 1/3 and 1/2 of my own income from private teaching.

[Kdanielsen]

Well, the job mattered to me as an attempt to improve my musicianship. For somebody trying to make a living as a musician it would be a joke. It barely even supplanted the income from teaching lessons. A lot of the rest of the orchestra were local music teachers.

Well...I don't really want to argue a lot about this, but no gig is a joke to someone trying to make a living as a professional musician.

I'm almost back to my pre-covid schedule of working somewhere pretty much every week. In a span of four weeks last fall I was an emergency sub for the Boston Symphony, then a week with the Hartford Symphony, then a week with the Rhode Island Philharmonic, then a week as a ringer with the RI College Wind Ensemble. No single one of those jobs could sustain me, but I had a steady stream of income. There are employers I work for about once a month and employers I work for two or three times a year. I need and value all of them.

When I had covid a couple of weeks ago I had to sub out three different gigs. It was no joke.

Finally, I consider music teachers to be professional musicians. It's very rare that they're making much money from their teaching day jobs, and performing regularly is an important part of what they bring to teaching. I make between 1/3 and 1/2 of my own income from private teaching.

Preach!!

I’ll be shocked if this doesn’t degenerate into an argument (and I don’t want to have it either…), but Gabe is right. This job can be so hard, and I just don’t care if someone with a steady day job losses a gig. They don’t rely on that gig to feed themselves or their family.

[WGWTR180]

Well...I don't really want to argue a lot about this, but no gig is a joke to someone trying to make a living as a professional musician.

I'm almost back to my pre-covid schedule of working somewhere pretty much every week. In a span of four weeks last fall I was an emergency sub for the Boston Symphony, then a week with the Hartford Symphony, then a week with the Rhode Island Philharmonic, then a week as a ringer with the RI College Wind Ensemble. No single one of those jobs could sustain me, but I had a steady stream of income. There are employers I work for about once a month and employers I work for two or three times a year. I need and value all of them.

When I had covid a couple of weeks ago I had to sub out three different gigs. It was no joke.

Finally, I consider music teachers to be professional musicians. It's very rare that they're making much money from their teaching day jobs, and performing regularly is an important part of what they bring to teaching. I make between 1/3 and 1/2 of my own income from private teaching.

Preach!!

I’ll be shocked if this doesn’t degenerate into an argument (and I don’t want to have it either…), but Gabe is right. This job can be so hard, and I just don’t care if someone with a steady day job losses a gig. They don’t rely on that gig to feed themselves or their family.

Well to a degree you're correct but since no one here will "open up their books" to financial scrutiny one should NEVER assume what someone else's financial situation is. I do know people with full time jobs and free lance music jobs who need all that income. But don't flatter yourself. I'm not arguing. Just making a true and valid point.

[TexasTBone]

One of the things I've made a point to do on my resume is to list my other non-musical degrees as a subtle way of explaining the gap without getting into the weeds of "life got in the way." I totally understand that some people will look at someone like me who has a full-time job and give a job to someone who needs the money more than I do, but ultimately, I want to be able to transition to being a full-time musician within the next six years. That's not a long time.

[Ozzlefinch]

I know that when I screen resumes for my industry, I don't look for skills. Everybody applying has roughly the same skills, that doesn't separate a candidate out from the crowd. I want to know WHO you are, not WHAT you are. I look for somebody who will be a good fit personality and work ethic wise. I can train anybody for skill, but not for attitude. And if you were an Eagle Scout, fly that flag proudly on your resume- you will be surprised how much weight that actually carries.

And don't be generic with your skills. Instead of writing "Played 2nd 'bone in community theater" write "Received 4 star reviews from Local Post newspaper for work in XYZ Little Theater". As an interviewer and resume screener, that answer actually gives me something to work with and something to talk to you about. It's my "in" to your personality and paints and clearer picture of your potential skill set. Remember, working with a TEAM is as important as your individual skills. Give the employer a REASON to talk to YOU instead of the other 400 trombone players that can also play scales. You are an individual human person, not an algorithm.

Try writing your resume around your PASSION for wanting the job more so than your generic skill set. Make the employer WANT you on their team. Give them something interesting that separates you out from all the other trombone players, something unique to you and something you can speak about with PASSION.

Curious as to what "industry" you work in. In the music field there are various degrees of efficiency and everyone is definitely NOT at an equal level of professionalism. One can sit down with a teacher and play at a good level through some duets but functioning with other musicians can be challenging. As a contractor I could care less if someone is an Eagle Scout(BTW I am also an Eagle Scout)when it comes to hiring for a particular job. Everyone wants THE job. Unfortunately there are fewer jobs to be had and PASSION isn't going to cut it.

Fair enough. I understand. Perhaps continuing to do things the way they have always been done will yield a different result this time. If my advice is not applicable, then ignore it.

[BGuttman]

The system for finding jobs is broken and nobody seems to know how to fix it.

First, there are often too many applicants for a job and weeding out the pile of resumes is a huge pile of work. So we use "buzz word finders" to try to find applicants who are most in sync with the job requirements. That seems good, except that two people may use different terms for the same thing. Computers aren't smart enough to realize that, for example, "programming" is the same as "coding" or "code writing" so a good candidate may be rejected simply because they didn't know the right buzz words. On the other side of the coin are resume services who know all the buzz words but don't necessarily know when to apply them correctly so an incompetent candidate shows up with a resume that the computer likes.

Second, there is the problem of defining the job requirements. Often this is left to the prospective supervisor, who may or may not know exactly what is needed. Too much emphasis may be placed on tasks that the manager sees and not enough on tasks that might be invisible to Management but vital to the success of the job. Sometimes the open position is to replace someone who left or has died and the Manager just wants another "Bob" just like the one he lost. That is a true needle in a haystack kind of search and people who could easily replace Bob are overlooked just because they need to learn a few skills.

I feel for the OP. It's a difficult task to fit your skills to a job that might be a 75% match when the hiring manager demands 110%.

[Burgerbob]

Again... "normal" business practice with resumes doesn't really apply here. This is a different world.

For orchestral auditions, identifying information is scrubbed and a small team (ideally, sometimes just one person) will go over the resumes. They are going quickly, just looking to maintain the standards for the audition- this can vary widely, from trying to boil it down to just a few ultra-qualified candidates for a top principal position, or just making sure every candidate has a pulse and has held an instrument in the last 5 years.

You don't know what those people are looking for, though. Sometimes the little orchestras are being very picky. Sometimes it's a cattle call audition and the resume round is to weed out... people that don't send in resumes.

For orchestral auditions, the big thing is just having some orchestral experience. Again, the standards for that vary pretty widely, but that's what they want to see. Good schools are a plus, but are secondary to experience.

[robcat2075]

When I worked at Nortel, résumés were something they collected to be able to say a talent search had been done before they hired the person they wanted to hire all along.

I presume that situation will exist for most highly-sought-after jobs, especially in the arts. The deciders already know numerous people who can do the job and who are or could become available.

[LeTromboniste]

For orchestral auditions, identifying information is scrubbed and a small team (ideally, sometimes just one person) will go over the resumes. They are going quickly, just looking to maintain the standards for the audition- this can vary widely, from trying to boil it down to just a few ultra-qualified candidates for a top principal position, or just making sure every candidate has a pulse and has held an instrument in the last 5 years.

I'm not actively looking for an orchestra job, but always keeping an eye around for a position that would be compatible with what I do. I've noticed that more and more orchestras in the Germanic world now require not only a resume, but a motivation letter as well in the resume round, which I found a bit surprising!

[Ozzlefinch]

For orchestral auditions, identifying information is scrubbed and a small team (ideally, sometimes just one person) will go over the resumes. They are going quickly, just looking to maintain the standards for the audition- this can vary widely, from trying to boil it down to just a few ultra-qualified candidates for a top principal position, or just making sure every candidate has a pulse and has held an instrument in the last 5 years.

I'm not actively looking for an orchestra job, but always keeping an eye around for a position that would be compatible with what I do. I've noticed that more and more orchestras in the Germanic world now require not only a resume, but a motivation letter as well in the resume round, which I found a bit surprising!

Interesting they would require a motivation letter. It's almost like they are searching for a human person with the right motivations and passion for the job instead of simply checking the boxes for technical competencies. That is very similar to what I would do to help me sort through hundreds of resume's that all look exactly the same. But what do I know anyways? It's better to just do things the way they have always been done and expect a different results. Changing your approach to help you stand out from the crowd is stupid. Certainly no place in the music industry for being different. We must conform always to tradition.

[WGWTR180]

I'm not actively looking for an orchestra job, but always keeping an eye around for a position that would be compatible with what I do. I've noticed that more and more orchestras in the Germanic world now require not only a resume, but a motivation letter as well in the resume round, which I found a bit surprising!

Interesting they would require a motivation letter. It's almost like they are searching for a human person with the right motivations and passion for the job instead of simply checking the boxes for technical competencies. That is very similar to what I would do to help me sort through hundreds of resume's that all look exactly the same. But what do I know anyways? It's better to just do things the way they have always been done and expect a different results. Changing your approach to help you stand out from the crowd is stupid. Certainly no place in the music industry for being different. We must conform always to tradition.

Love the sarcasm.

[brtnats]

I wasn’t going to comment until some of the actual professional gigging musicians in this thread tipped their hands into what I’d consider rude and demeaning territory.

First off, THAT’S the OP’s target audience: Professionals who don’t “care” if someone loses a gig because someone else “needed” it more, who will talk out of both sides of their mouth about having the skills, but then playing realpolitik with actual people because they themselves are a couple of bad weeks to starvation. It is a cutthroat world in the music business, and unless you’re willing to play hardball with a knife between your teeth, you’re not going to make it. You’re going to get passed over or fired for someone who “needs the gig more.”

@TexasTBone: The most valuable information you’re going to get has already been given. If your credentials can’t stand on their own, you have to do the legwork to get somebody else to vouch for you. Take lessons with “name” players who have jobs like the ones you want to have. Multiple lessons via any means necessary. These will not be the kind of players who post in this forum. Talk to them about your specific job goals, get THEIR input, and if your playing is good enough that they’d reference you. If they won’t, take that to heart.

Find “the best” players in your area that have stable, full time jobs. This is important because you don’t want to look like a threat to their livelihood. It’s usually professors. Do the same thing as above, and ask to be included in any pro opportunities that come their way. You’ve got to pay for this privilege, so be ready to cough it up.

Teach private students in any capacity that you can. This gets you an income stream, a professional position to lean on and network with, and hopefully hooks you into the local scene of studio teachers who can introduce you to contractors.

Set benchmark goals for your 6 years. If you don’t make your goals, take that to heart. It’s not good enough to be good enough. You’ve got to play the game better than everyone else who is good enough.

[Matt K]

That might be an American vs European thing. I've never received a cover letter (and I've never asked for one). Again, different industries though. But my experience has been more in line with not doing cover letters etc. That type of thing, in my opinion, can much more easily be ascertained on a call in a few minutes. No sense in making candidates spend a similar amount of time fretting over the formatting of a document, making sure it perfectly aligns with what HR wrote (probably not perfectly). But typically, I'm looking for people who may or may not be able to hit the ground running. Someone who has experience - even not directly applicable - to the work that we do. In the orchestral world, in particular, you're expected to have at least a master's degree and years of experience in doing exactly the type of work they're looking for so it might make sense for hiring committees to ask candidates that are otherwise probably quite similar to differentiate themselves. And you can selectively pull from a much smaller pool of people with X amount of years experience at a similar institution.

[Ozzlefinch]

Interesting they would require a motivation letter. It's almost like they are searching for a human person with the right motivations and passion for the job instead of simply checking the boxes for technical competencies. That is very similar to what I would do to help me sort through hundreds of resume's that all look exactly the same. But what do I know anyways? It's better to just do things the way they have always been done and expect a different results. Changing your approach to help you stand out from the crowd is stupid. Certainly no place in the music industry for being different. We must conform always to tradition.

Love the sarcasm.

Yes, and with that, I will bow out of this conversation

[GabrielRice]

I think I've been accused of being rude and demeaning. And then the person who accused me reiterated my advice, along with some valuable additions. Thank you for that.

People who know me know that I am generally a pretty positive and encouraging guy, and I'm one of the people young trombonists come to around here when they want to make contacts in the classical music freelance world. I take issue with the characterization of that as some sort of cutthroat game. People make music with other people, and it only makes sense to cultivate good relationships with the people you want to work with.

In fact, there are three young trombonists working this weekend in one of my orchestras because of my recommendations. Only one of them was one of my students.

I make no apologies for prioritizing professional musicians for professional gigs. That said, most professional musicians I know have spent at least part of their adult life working a day job, sometimes in an unrelated field, to make ends meet. I certainly did. That is different from being a music hobbyist - however high level - whose career lies elsewhere. I don't think there is anything rude or demeaning about making that distinction when it comes time to hire for a gig.

[WGWTR180]

Love the sarcasm.

Yes, and with that, I will bow out of this conversation

Well you can take your toys and go home OR you can share what industry you are in that would benefit from what you are proposing. But to come on here are state twice that doing the same thing will lead to the same results and how people should not be different in the Music business is being sarcastic on your part. Sorry but that's the facts.

[Ozzlefinch]

True, but at the same time everybody is saying that they are experts in the field and the advice is to follow tradition and do the same thing that has always been done. The "respect" road works both ways. I have given my input which is to change tactics if you want different results. If my advice goes against the establishment experts, then simply ignore what I have said and to what the experts tell you to do.

What I am hearing is that you cannot get a job in the music industry without a resume that shows you have significant experience in the music industry, but you can't get experience if you can't get a job. My point of view is that to get a job, you have to stand out in some what apart from experience. But that is my personal opinion and it's unsolicited and therefore worth next to nothing. Take it or leave it, it's all the same to me.

I am the senior training manager for a global company associated with the railroad industry. My job is to hire people from around the world, train them to be trainers in a niche industry, then sell and manage training courses to railroads on a global level. I am also responsible for forecasting the training needs of the industry and developing the training programs. Our next project is to move into Bosnia. I am currently in Germany now working with the team to construct the parameters for what we need in a recruit so we can train them to work for us. 0% of applicants will have any background in this particular field, so I have to look for things other than extensive experience.

[LeTromboniste]

True, but at the same time everybody is saying that they are experts in the field and the advice is to follow tradition and do the same thing that has always been done. The "respect" road works both ways. I have given my input which is to change tactics if you want different results. If my advice goes against the establishment experts, then simply ignore what I have said and to what the experts tell you to do.

What I am hearing is that you cannot get a job in the music industry without a resume that shows you have significant experience in the music industry, but you can't get experience if you can't get a job. My point of view is that to get a job, you have to stand out in some what apart from experience. But that is my personal opinion and it's unsolicited and therefore worth next to nothing. Take it or leave it, it's all the same to me.

The reality is the orchestral scene wants you to stand out in only a very specific way, that is, being better than every other candidate at doing the same thing every other candidate does well. It's a very small box you have to fit in. In most cases they absolutely do not want people who stand out because they're outside of that box. They're looking for something that is both very specific and not particularly rare (there are way more competent, qualified orchestral trombone players than there are orchestra jobs), so there is little incentive for them to look for something different. I think you're confusing "orchestral trombone playing" with "music industry". There are many, many paths to success in the music industry. There are jobs in the music industry where your perspective on resumes and standing out would totally be applicable. Orchestral auditions are for the most part just not among them.

[TexasTBone]

Wow ... I didn't mean to stir up some shit here. And in defense of Gabe Rice, he provided me with some very thoughtful and valuable advice after I sent him my resume. He's someone I've always respected and if he tells me I should do something, I'll do my best to do it.

I'm smart enough and humble enough to know and admit I'm not the best trombone player out there. Even though I've been playing for 30+ years, I don't have a performance degree. So ... I went back to school to get one. I'm two piano classes short of my AAM and am looking to get a Bachelors and then a Masters if I can find programs that work for me. Some trombone professors have been honest enough to tell me not to bother applying because either they aren't setup for non-traditional folks like me or they don't want to invest in someone who doesn't have 50 years of performing ahead of them. It sucks, but that's life and it means some people will look down their noses at me and I have to work twice as hard to prove myself.

Some of my current professors really want me to come teach with them because of my existing skills, but I can't because I don't have the piece of paper that allows me to (I can still teach government if I want). This shows the two different sides of the coin - the side where no one cares what paper you have as long as you can perform, and the side where no one cares if you can perform if you don't have the paper.

All I can do at this point is work hard and play as many places as I can, even if I'm not getting paid, and work on my other musical endeavors like arranging and publishing. I start composition lessons in the Fall and I'll see how that goes.

[WilliamLang]

the level of playing and specialization in professional orchestras is such that you cannot train on the job. so it doesn't really compare to many other industries, where people skills and acquiring new skills over time can hold you over. in a full time orchestra 98% or more of the skills you will need need to be locked in before you arrive to play (the other 2% are stuff like section balancing, style within the orchestra, leadership if you are new to the principal trombone in a professional orchestra game.)

the amount of people who already posses most of these traits is high enough that almost every orchestra that pays anything can be picky and fill themselves with high level professional players with years or decades or training already under their belts. it ends up feeling more like the olympics than like a traditional job application.

[WilliamLang]

All I can do at this point is work hard and play as many places as I can, even if I'm not getting paid, and work on my other musical endeavors like arranging and publishing. I start composition lessons in the Fall and I'll see how that goes.

best of luck with the work and lessons!

[TexasTBone]

the amount of people who already posses most of these traits is high enough that almost every orchestra that pays anything can be picky and fill themselves with high level professional players with years or decades or training already under their belts. it ends up feeling more like the olympics than like a traditional job application.

Maybe I should have included that my intentions right now aren't to seek a core player position in a major orchestra. That's not a realistic goal for me where I'm at right now, given the plethora of higher level players competing for those positions.

[Posaunus]

All I can do at this point is work hard and play as many places as I can, even if I'm not getting paid, and work on my other musical endeavors like arranging and publishing.

Good luck, TBone. I admire your passion and dedication.

[WilliamLang]

Maybe I should have included that my intentions right now aren't to seek a core player position in a major orchestra. That's not a realistic goal for me where I'm at right now, given the plethora of higher level players competing for those positions.

totally understood! this was just adding to other parts of the conversation w/r/t comparing industries. fun story, i remember the last time i auditioned for Princeton Symphony, which is a small per-service orchestra that doesn't work a ton. there were like about 36 people auditioning, some high level freelancers from the tri-state area, students at Juilliard/Curtis etc. and a few people who had already won full-time jobs. no one advanced out of the first round.

if more of these jobs hired people every time there was an audition, there'd be more work to go around.