Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

[BGuttman]

Wow. Now I finally know how to pronounce his name. Looks like a good source.

[PaulTdot]

Yes, this kind of thing can be a good approach to learning or practicing improvising. I consider it one of the three "areas" to work on; seems like a reasonable source for that.

If you have good enough ears and are familiar enough with [whatever style you want to sound like], you're better off getting these melodic cells from your favourite players/recordings, but in the absence of that a book like this could be a decent substitute.

[ds21]

I believe it would help improvisation at any level to try to turn off the logical, self-critical style of thinking about the sounds you're making.
Real-time analysis of your playing is fine for learning chord changes, but it chokes off creativity when it's needed most.

[Macbone1]

During the COVID shutdowns I decided to work on my long-neglected improv skills, my weakest area. Paul the Trombonist (also suffering from COVID restrictions like everyone else) had some great tips online plus links to free improv guides. I think the trick is not to try and be Bill Watrous or Frank Rosolino, out of the gate. American ears are used to very simple structures in music nowadays (heck, look at all the rap) so keeping it simple and LISTENING to the flow of chord changes is key. You will be relaxed and still be able to impress. Like a lot of things, starting in is half the battle.

[GGJazz]

Hello to everyone.

I found this thread very interesting ; a lots of good advice !
I would like to bring my thought , too .

I don' t think the difficulties we find improvising Music are only related to extreme speed , and chords' complexity .
If so , then anyone would be able to take a beautiful solo on a medium time , over a repeated easy single chord , like : [ Cmaj / open ] 88 bpm ...

To me , improvising Music is basically the same as composing Music . The main difference is that , when we improvise , we have to do it istantly .
So , as to learn how to compose , we have to learn two basic rules : 1) how to build musical phrases; 2) how to resolve the tones at the point the chords changes .

I think that start to put the hands on a piano/ keyboard is a very useful thing , to learn how things works . Playing chords on the piano will show us how close the voicings are between different chords , if we use the proper inversions.

Further , if we want to improvise jazz Music , we have to learn how this Music "sounds" like , listening it for years .

As member ExZacLee explained at the pages 1 and 2 of this thread , then we have to listen , learn to play , and analyze Jazz Trombone Master' solos .

Regards to everyone
Giancarlo

[Burgerbob]

I'll admit I haven't read any of this thread, but anyway...

[baileyman]

I totally remade my practice routine after hearing his low flexibilities before a Holman rehearsal.

Plays in time. That's so huge.

[brumpone]

Some very interesting thoughts on Twitter lately from Jacob Garchik and Ethan Iverson on 'improvising' not really being improvised!

[johntarr]

Some very interesting thoughts on Twitter lately from Jacob Garchik and Ethan Iverson on 'improvising' not really being improvised!

The Iverson article is very interesting and helps me better understand how playing jazz can be very much like speaking. When we talk, we often use the same few words, sentences and phrases, over and over. However, we still can say something unique, original, and, if it’s a conversation (versus a monologue), we hopefully respond to what our partners are saying. So improvisation becomes choosing which phrase to use and how to follow up plus doing that in the context.

Thanks for posting that essay!

[joebone8]

There are a lot of fine musicians that play different instruments that cannot improvise. Some people can sight read like crazy, but ask them to play a solo, and forget about it. That goes with sax, trumpet, trombone, piano, even bass players. I basically rely on my ear for soloing where others might have a more thorough understanding of chord progressions and theory and use a more technical approach. I think some people just feel it, and some people don't.

[Trombo]

Yes, all of the above thoughts are correct. I would like to add only that the slide trombone is the only musical instrument that is not played with the fingers (not including percussion instruments). Therefore, it is significantly inferior in technique to "finger musical instruments". And that is why, in my opinion, it is so difficult to improvise on it.

[Bach5G]

.

Never mind not having a Bird, Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Griffin, Brecker, or Potter to look up to, we don't even have a genuine A-lister that eschews "flashy" technique like Chet Baker, Getz or, to a lesser extent, even Jan Garbarek.
…

I need to disagree here. There are plenty of A-listers these days, and plenty in the past. …

I would like to add one thing to this discussion. The best improvisers are first and foremost exactly that: an improviser.
…

Re: A-listers, I’ve very much enjoyed Josh Roseman. Mike Dease shows up to great effect on guitarist Jocelyn Gould’s album. McChesney is known for his blazing speed but his ballad playing is gorgeous. Look for The First Time etc. Also Steve Davis.

There are more great players than ever.

[hyperbolica]

Here's a video I found that I thought was encouraging, and helped me see the question in a different light. Charlie Parker used a lot of recycled musical ideas. That makes it less magical, and more about a starting place that I can relate to...

[PaulTdot]

I didn't see the whole video, but this idea won't come as a surprise to any experienced improviser.

Both improvisation and composition are a process which combines spontaneity with repetition, practice, and formulae. There's not a clear separating line - sometimes composition has moments of improvised spontaneity (you sit down at a piano, play a flurry of notes, and think, 'wow! I'd better write that down!') and improvisation has many moments of carefully studied "worked out" material.

It's just like speech - you're playing in the moment, but there are phrases, ideas, and structures you carry with you and use again and again.

It's a bit of paradox that every committed improviser deals with and sometimes struggles with. Consider the famous story about Coltrane where he wanted to play so many choruses that he would "run out" of familiar material and get to new ideas.

Approach it with an open mind, and try different things - just like anything else in music, there is a wide spectrum and each player will find their own way.

[Trombonjon]

Lack of practice. It guarantees that you'll suck at whatever you do, including improvising. I'm not the greatest improviser (far from it, actually,) but I can hold my own. You never know when been able to improvise at least a little bit comes in handy. I once showed up for a salsa gig, but the sax and the trumpet player didn't, so I wound up playing all the melodies and all the improvisation breaks in the "wind section." From that point on I decided to make improvising practice part of my almost daily routine. I try to incorporate familiar forms (blues, changes, etc. on all keys. It helps me hear better what's going on and blend better with whatever is going on.

[Bach5G]

Who takes the time to learn and master vocabulary?

[stevenvortigern]

Most of the greats will commonly play phrases that have a range of two octaves or more. Trombonists are challenged in this because the lower range is so much more technically challenging to play fast in than the upper range. I imagine this discrepancy leads lots of improvising trombonists to tend to avoid the lower range, since as improvisers, they have a choice. Couple with this the fact that we share our lower range with the bass and piano which makes it more difficult for it to stand out as a lead line... but the discrepancy in register difficulty makes it hard to play the fast cohesive lines across the range of the horn that are so common in great jazz.

I steal a lot of vocabulary from Chet Baker, who I think is great for trombonists to emulate because, although he occasionally shows he is capable, most of his lines do not rely on flashy technique and are generally accessible on trombone at tempo. However, he makes extensive use of the lower range. If I try to play his lines as they correspond on trombone (an octave lower) I'm often frustrated, especially without a trigger horn. The flip side is that he rarely uses the highest trumpet register, so I can often play in his trumpet range. So when playing along with a recording, I do some octave switching. It is the fast phrases that stretch across a wide pitch range that give me the most trouble.

[PaulTdot]

Imitating some of the less technical players - and particularly trumpet players, like Chet Baker or Miles Davis, who could play really stunning but simple solos in the middle/lower register - is a good approach, particularly if that style of playing appeals to you.

It really depends on the style of the music, as well. In some types of improvised music, the expected stylistic approach is well-suited to the trombone (e.g. trad jazz or ska); in others, not so much.

[baileyman]

Most of the greats will commonly play phrases that have a range of two octaves or more. Trombonists are challenged in this because the lower range is so much more technically challenging to play fast in than the upper range. I imagine this discrepancy leads lots of improvising trombonists to tend to avoid the lower range, since as improvisers, they have a choice. Couple with this the fact that we share our lower range with the bass and piano which makes it more difficult for it to stand out as a lead line... but the discrepancy in register difficulty makes it hard to play the fast cohesive lines across the range of the horn that are so common in great jazz.

I steal a lot of vocabulary from Chet Baker, who I think is great for trombonists to emulate because, although he occasionally shows he is capable, most of his lines do not rely on flashy technique and are generally accessible on trombone at tempo. However, he makes extensive use of the lower range. If I try to play his lines as they correspond on trombone (an octave lower) I'm often frustrated, especially without a trigger horn. The flip side is that he rarely uses the highest trumpet register, so I can often play in his trumpet range. So when playing along with a recording, I do some octave switching. It is the fast phrases that stretch across a wide pitch range that give me the most trouble.

This is a perfect place to be to revisit the awkward lines and alter them to fit the horn. It's possible to play some pretty blazing figures if they fit the horn. And there seems to be a limitless number of such figures. Generally, it comes down to relocating the awkward notes to be "next notes", that is, ones that are within one position or one partial of the last note.

Stealing from Chet, what a great idea.

[GGJazz]

Hi all .

Chet Baker is (was) a wonderful musician , so clear in his way of phrasing .

However , it could be worth taking a look at some trombone players like Curtis Fuller , who among his recordings , also left us some "quite simple" solos , good points to check . No two-octaves phrases , no very high notes , no super-tricky patterns , no super-fast lines .

You can clearly hear every notes he played .. Plus , he have a great jazz feeling ; and a very relaxed way to keeping up with the time . In my opinion , these things are very important , to play Jazz Music.

Of course , he played also some very very challenging solos ( like " Blue Train" with J. Coltrane ; or "Caravan" with Art Blakey ; ecc) , however there are quite a few of his performances that are pretty playables ( technically speaking) . Anyway , he was (and still is ..) one the greatest Jazz players .

(The videos below also include transcriptions , to show immediatly what it is about . I would however suggest learning them from the original recording , by ear , and then memorize them ) .

Soon


Blue Lawson


Autumn Leaves



Regards
Giancarlo

[FliPFloP]

Honestly, it could be the stigma against jazz trombone as a whole. Most of the time in jazz music trombone is hidden in the background which could make jazz trombonists not be as confident in improvisation.

[GGJazz]

Hi all .

@FliPFloP , forgive me , but I do not quite agree with your statements .

I think that trombone players have the same chance to be featured as soloists , in every kind of Jazz ensembles' (if they are able to take solos) , as others instruments does.

Of course , in some Schools' Big Band , you may not find one that can perform improvised solos , so you will see the trombonists playing section only .

In my opinion , backing to the original question of this thread , it is only a matter of quantity : for each individual trombone' player there are 10 saxophone' players , 10 trumpet' players , 20 guitar' players , ecc . When I was at the Berklee College of Boston , I think we were about 22/25 trbn' students , while the saxophone students were around 100 ( or maybe even more ) ...

So , in this much bigger amount of players , there are many more soloists , compared to the trombonists .

Furthermore , many times you might hear some sax, trumpet , piano , guitar players taking improvised solos , but they are just running over the chords , playing 1 2 3 5 , 3 5 6 1 ,1 3 b7 #9 ecc patterns , and so on . This is just fingers- playing , not really improvising music..

Regards
Giancarlo

[TOPSLIDER]

trumpet and saxophone players also started on trombone. it was too difficult so they switched.

[tbdana]

Lots of content in this thread. I'm old, and I'm coming at this from the perspective of having been around for a long time. I will just offer some disconnected, random thoughts:

You can't become a great improviser in a big band. You have to get into a small group where you have the space to play several choruses and you solo on every tune. 32 bars on two tunes a night isn't enough flight time to become good.

You must learn to play by ear. Play everything you hear or or hear inside your head by ear. Having "big ears" is a huge secret to being a good improviser. When you get to the point when if you "hear it" in your head you can play it on your instrument, you're ready to become a good improviser.

Listen to Andy Martin. He learned to play jazz like a sax player; e.g., not using the "crutch" of licks that are easy to play on trombone, but by what is melodic and lyrical. Carl Fontana was the same way. Bill Watrous was not a good jazz player. Great technician, had big ears and a great jazz vocabulary, but he played the "trombone" as opposed to playing the "music." I sat next to him for 15 years and got to learn every lick he played when improvising, and though Billy was a dear friend and an incredible trombonist, I never felt like he was much of an improvisational artist (better than me, though LOL). Frank Rosolino combined playing the "trombone" with playing the "music," and IMHO no one ever did that better than Frank. Frank could play anything he could hear in his head (playing by ear), and could hit notes he "heard" even if his technique wasn't up to it. I can't tell you how many times I marveled at him playing notes in slide positions where those notes weren't available to anyone else. Frank played whatever he heard in his head, but what he heard was informed by the limitations of the instrument. And I always go back to JJ Johnson as the gold standard for technically excellent improvisation (as opposed to technical excellence on the horn).

To be a good improviser you need the same tools as you do to be a good conversationalist. You need a big vocabulary (words/patterns), you need to be fluent in the language (English/harmonic structure and scales), and you need solid, pre-formed ideas to communicate that you are thoroughly familiar with (concepts). You can't be a good conversationalist if you aren't fluent in the language and don't have pre-formed concepts to communicate. Same with playing jazz. Improvisation is fluency + vocabulary + concept.

Get the book Patterns for Jazz and learn the entire book. That will give you the jazz "words" (patterns/licks) you'll need as a foundation for improvising. Copy licks from players you like and learn them in every key and on every partial. These are the words you'll use.

Know jazz harmonic structures. This is music theory, and it's the "language" of jazz. It's way more than knowing a blues scale or a IIm7-V7-IMaj7 progression. Learn the tonality of jazz, which requires knowing all the extensions and alterations of chords. Know minor scales (harmonic minor is a must) and altered scales like whole tone scales and half-step/whole-step scales (excellent on altered dominant chords), and be fluent in all the modes. Learn to play patterns off these scales in every key, in every position, and on every partial. This is the language you will speak.

Practice extended (4 bars or more) melodic concepts and patterns over chord progressions in every key, and know them fluently. Learn to modify them as you play. These are your "concepts" or ideas that you will communicate to your audience.

Only when you have those "tools" (jazz words and phrases, fluency in the language, and concepts to communicate) will you be able to improvise anything even close to good. Imagine sitting in a hall listening to a speaker who is speaking off the top of his head. If he's not fluent in the language, doesn't have the vocabulary to communicate effectively, and hasn't thought out his subject matter, that's going to be a pretty painful talk to listen to. Same with listening to a jazz solo by someone who lacks the necessary foundation.

You don't need blazing speed or incredible range to be a great jazz player and to not "suck" when improvising. What you need are melodic phrases that follow the chord changes in a natural way, and you get that by having the "tools" outlined above. Some of my favorite trombone improvisers weren't impressive trombonists. Wayne Henderson is a perfect example. Simple phrases that go right to the heart, without any flash. if you don't know him, listen to some old Crusaders albums (FKA Jazz Crusaders) and you'll see what I mean.

Take improvisation lessons from someone who plays jazz well, but who does NOT play trombone. I learned from Charlie Shoemake a vibraphone player. He taught me to play "pure" jazz, not "trombone" jazz. Don't learn from a trombonist.

Okay, that's my random thoughts.

[GGJazz]

Hello everyone.

In my opinion , who plays a different instrument can also be involved in a too much "related-to-instrument" way of thinking about music . I hear a lots of musicians playing "guitar" Jazz or "saxophone" Jazz , too . So , for a trombone player would be a big risk to take lessons from some of them .

I think that an important thing should be to get in touch with people who play real Jazz ( or "pure" Jazz , as Tbdana wrote above ) ; regardless the instrument they play . Of course , it could be also a Jazz trombone player , if he play real Jazz .

Anyway , the musician from whom I learned the most was a saxophone' player ...

Regards
Giancarlo

[sconn90]

It's amazing that this thread has been going on for five plus years now. I just had my first experience with "Go, Steve" in our cover band (OK, so the lead singer was actually throwing to the trumpet player, also named Steve) and I discovered that when I hit each note, I had no idea what I was going to play next. It occurred to me that I needed to practice improvising, which sounds counterintuitive. But clearly from reading this thread, it's needed.

[goodebone]

^^^^ All good points.
Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.
Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.
But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.
It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.

I think there is a lot of truth to what you say about people in general having a more visceral response to the trumpet and sax than to trombone when they hear them play, but also when you just talk to them about playing the instrument. Its like if you were in a bar and chatted up 100 different people told 50 of em you were a trumpet player of some renown and the other 50 you were a trombone player of some renown, you would impress more people with your claims of trumpet prowess than with trombone prowess. 'Bone players just don't get much recognition or appreciation for their abilities in general I think. I can't speak to the situation in a professional musical setting because I don't run in those circles, but is it different there?

[Bach5G]

Have a listen to Rosolino’s Thinking About You.

[Cmillar]

Jack Teagarden's work sets a high bar of trombone playing, jazz, improv, and plain good music.

This is a long thread, so I'm sure he's been mentioned somewhere or at some point (at least, I would hope so!

Oh....also Trummy Young's work.

[imsevimse]

.....'Bone players just don't get much recognition or appreciation for their abilities in general I think. I can't speak to the situation in a professional musical setting because I don't run in those circles, but is it different there?

I'd say that in semi-professional big band gigs you just have to look on how a band is set up and mic'ed to see the value of the trombone-section. If you aren't there to stear things right then you have no room for the slides and no solo mic's, and that in an environment where rythm section is mic'ed. You are then of course surrounded by trumpets in the back with one mic at second trumpet for solos, and in front you are blocked by saxes who insists to have one mic each, and they also insist on hearing themselves in the monitors . Theese situations are so bad it makes me want to quit. Why? Well, the audiece loves this, but I'm sure they just hear the rythm section and the saxes, and the singer. During such gigs the environment in the start can be okey but after a while when the sound engineer has turned everything up nothing can be heard from the trombone section. Why do this? Why play a solo in this environment? Does the solo suck? Nobody cares, and nobody listens probably. It's just a paid job. I've done it more than once. Why? I don't know in advance when that happens, but it happens regularly with the wrong sound engineer and there aren't many good ones

This wasn't an answer why tromboneplayers suck at improvising, more an answer to whether tromboneplayers get recognition. Well, they don't from sound engineers and in some bands musicians just struggle to get mics so they can hear themselves, and by the way I've never heard a trombonesection insisting to get mics up close in the bell, it's only saxes who do that. We are too humble

/Tom

[baileyman]

Dassit. I recall a band director who played trombone say, "Saxes, you have to realize sax is a loud instrument!" It did not help.

Add in that the harmonics that people actually hear from trombone are other instruments' fundamentals, so trombone disappears anyway. And that few charts are written to take advantage of the horn, especially declarative four part harmony, rhythmic comping. That few sections understand rhythmic comping is like being in the rhythm section, so they don't make it happen. And that the sax or piano player who writes a trombone feature will be so awkward to play it cannot sound good, except maybe at Local 47.

Meanwhile on improv, I am currently focusing on hearing a next note of the key of the moment and making approach that makes sense. There seems to be long legs on this. I remember asking Dave Pell what it was about Fagerquist that he really liked. "He always seemed to know where he was going." That sort of thing.

[goodebone]

.....'Bone players just don't get much recognition or appreciation for their abilities in general I think. I can't speak to the situation in a professional musical setting because I don't run in those circles, but is it different there?

I'd say that in semi-professional big band gigs you just have to look on how a band is set up and mic'ed to see the value of the trombone-section. If you aren't there to stear things right then you have no room for the slides and no solo mic's, and that in an environment where rythm section is mic'ed. You are then of course surrounded by trumpets in the back with one mic at second trumpet for solos, and in front you are blocked by saxes who insists to have one mic each, and they also insist on hearing themselves in the monitors . Theese situations are so bad it makes me want to quit. Why? Well, the audiece loves this, but I'm sure they just hear the rythm section and the saxes, and the singer. During such gigs the environment in the start can be okey but after a while when the sound engineer has turned everything up nothing can be heard from the trombone section. Why do this? Why play a solo in this environment? Does the solo suck? Nobody cares, and nobody listens probably. It's just a paid job. I've done it more than once. Why? I don't know in advance when that happens, but it happens regularly with the wrong sound engineer and there aren't many good ones

This wasn't an answer why tromboneplayers suck at improvising, more an answer to whether tromboneplayers get recognition. Well, they don't from sound engineers and in some bands musicians just struggle to get mics so they can hear themselves, and by the way I've never heard a trombonesection insisting to get mics up close in the bell, it's only saxes who do that. We are too humble

/Tom

I have to laugh at the assertion we are too humble...its very funny, but honestly there is at least in my perception an element of truth to it. Most trombone players I know are a good bit more humble about their skills than the average trumpet player...just saying. Anyone think I am wrong about this?

[tbdana]

You know that the trumpet players handshake is to grab the persons hand as hard as you can, pull them towards you, stare them in the eye, and say “I play better than you do.“ Lol!

As for Trombone recognition and improvisation, I think we are a different kind of beast than those other instruments. Soloing, whether in jazz improvisation or in a symphony setting is not our strength. We are the cows of the orchestra. That’s not a comment that is derogatory or has anything to do with the sound. It means that the strength of the trombone is in a group, not in a singular performance like a solo. We are the foundation of the orchestra. We give it a base, a harmonic structure, and rhythmic integrity. Trombones are the only instrument they can play nothing but whole notes and then high five each other over how great the gig was. Lol! Sax players, trumpet players, and piano players will never understand that. But for Trombones it is the section, the whole, the gestalt of all the players playing together that gives us great strength.

So, when we step outside of that to play solos in the manner that other instruments do, we are not actually playing to our strengths. Whereas these other instruments are made to handle endless 16th notes and solo passages, that is not the best of what we do. So when we take on those solos, we take on an added challenge that those other instruments do not face. That’s OK. In fact, that’s a bigger victory for us than it is for those other instruments when we play a solo well.

Sorry for any grammatical errors, I am dictating this while in my car on my way to a Fourth of July gig.

[DAx]

For what it's worth, I just spent a week listening to 100+ young students, all instruments, learning to improvise. I can state unequivocally that the trombonists did NOT suck any more than the others.

My hat is off to you music educators who listen to this kind of thing their entire career!

Cheers!

[Jimprindle]

Driving around listening to my local jazz station, I hear a lot of sax players that suck at improvising. I hear a lot of piano players that suck at improvising. I hear a lot of bass players that suck at improvising, like, most of them. I hear a lot of trumpet players that suck at improvising. But did Urbie Green, Frank Rosolino, Dick Nash, and many more suck? Hell, no.

I think the most correct question would be who are the trombone players that are the most interesting influential at jazz improv right now. I would say Andy Martin, Alex Isles and a whole bunch of other players I don’t know. There are lot of female trombone players that are tearing up that genre as well.

[tbdana]

When one of the best and most impressive trombonists ever gets out of their comfort zone and sounds decidedly earthbound trying to play jazz.

[Bach5G]

I’m returning home from #2 of 10 sessions of improv lessons with one of the city’s if not country’s foremost jazz bass players. 90 min sessions, 3 horns, piano, guitar and bass, working through tunes from The Real Easy Book.

Yeah, not the way ……………… (insert name) may have done it in 1947, but, still, a semi-structured approach has its merits. So far, learned something useful, given some approaches/drills to work on. Paying dividends already I think.

…

Listening to Joe (above), does anyone other than Slide Hampton handle a big horn well in jazz?

[ithinknot]

Raul de Souza, Fred Wesley, Michael Dease at various points

Lots of NY people on 36s from Jimmy Knepper onwards, Andy Hunter on a Rath R3F... you can argue the measurements, but the concept is big enough to not be small

[cb56]

Never been a problem for me

[Doug Elliott]

Add David Gibson to the list

[Bach5G]

Add David Gibson to the list

It’s been a while since I’ve seen David Gibson’s name on this forum. I note David just recently, like this month, released a new recording: Fellowship. Check it out.

I also noted the following from David’s website:

Even prior to Covid, I was trying to restrict myself to playing with quartet because I knew it would challenge me to carry the load,” says Gibson, an Oklahoma native who spent quality time with legendary trombonist-arranger Slide Hampton after arriving in New York in the mid-1990s from Eastman Conservatory of Music.”

[harrisonreed]

This guy is pretty good:

[OneTon]

Steve Turre on the 0.547 bore YSL-881.