S. E. Shires Neck pipes

[icelandarp]

So I stumbled upon an item while looking at bass trombones and I discovered these neck pipes, which allegedly converts a [Shires] bass or large bore tenor (with valves) into a straight bass or large bore tenor.

The way it works is by removing the bell section and installing the neck pipe in place of the valves (it is not permanent from what I can tell). The idea I guess is to offer more styles of playing cause like you retain the bore size but don't have the valve function.

Thoughts?

Here's the link to see what I'm talking about:
https://shop.schmittmusic.com/search.ph ... on=product

[BGuttman]

This was the way to create a convertible instrument since forever. You could buy a Shires, Edwards, or Rath with a valve and have a straight neckpipe for whenever you don't want to play the valve. Back in the old days you could get a Bach 42C or 36C that came with a valve section and a straight section. Conn offered this on the Gen II 88 series as well.

I own a Bach 36C and I find I rarely (if ever) use the straight neckpipe.

[icelandarp]

So it's not new....interesting. Thanks!

[Burgerbob]

They certainly exist. I've had one for Bach A47 (and will have a similar one soon for my 42/36 project). With large or medium tenor, they can make sense if you want that straight horn sometimes. For bass? Dunno, I guess if you want a toy to play with... almost never.

[brassmedic]

I think the idea is that a trombone will play and sound better without the distortion of the air path as it travels through the valves, and the uninterrupted taper of the tube. Whether that's true in actual practice is another thing. Also, I suppose some players might find the lighter weight advantageous. There's actually quite a bit of orchestra rep for bass trombone that wouldn't require any valves.

[icelandarp]

They certainly exist. I've had one for Bach A47 (and will have a similar one soon for my 42/36 project). With large or medium tenor, they can make sense if you want that straight horn sometimes. For bass? Dunno, I guess if you want a toy to play with... almost never.

Makes sense. I guess a bass sackbut is sort of an example, although depending on which one it is it would be keyed differently.

[icelandarp]

I think the idea is that a trombone will play and sound better without the distortion of the air path as it travels through the valves, and the uninterrupted taper of the tube. Whether that's true in actual practice is another thing. Also, I suppose some players might find the lighter weight advantageous. There's actually quite a bit of orchestra rep for bass trombone that wouldn't require any valves.

Would you say it sort of acts like a thayer valve configuration minus the weight?

[Matt K]

I actually have one. It plays surprisingly well. Very nice to have something that's way lighter than having two valves. I don't anticipate ever using it on a gig, but it's cool to be able to practice on since a lot of my practice is slurs and whatnot. My intention was actually to just use the parts to make a single-valve bass and I'll eventually get there.... probably.

Doesn't play like a set of thayers to me. Neckpipes tend to play less broad than Thayers and less "centered" than rotors,but more broad than rotors and more centered than thayers --- in my opinion.

[icelandarp]

I actually have one. It plays surprisingly well. Very nice to have something that's way lighter than having two valves. I don't anticipate ever using it on a gig, but it's cool to be able to practice on since a lot of my practice is slurs and whatnot. My intention was actually to just use the parts to make a single-valve bass and I'll eventually get there.... probably.

I also looked at the little bar thing sticking out of the neck pipe. Is that supposed to mock a valve? I assume it's to have a spot of rest your thumb on and serves as a way to hold up the instrument a bit more comfortably cause of the weight (if any difference between that and a straight tenor).

[Burgerbob]

I also looked at the little bar thing sticking out of the neck pipe.

Yes, that's for your thumb. Unless an instrument was made as a straight horn, the main bell brace is too far back to be comfortable to hold.

[icelandarp]

That makes a lot more sense. I thought it was meant as a joke lol

[brassmedic]

Would you say it sort of acts like a thayer valve configuration minus the weight?

Thayer valves have no expansion within the passages and neither does the short connecting tube between the 2 valves, so a trombone with 2 independent Thayers has an entirely cylindrical passage between the receiver and the tuning slide. Straight neckpipes are conical. The bore expands throughout its length. So in theory it wouldn't be like Thayers.

[Kbiggs]

Back in the old days you could get a Bach 42C or 36C that came with a valve section and a straight section. Conn offered this on the Gen II 88 series as well.

I own a Bach 36C and I find I rarely (if ever) use the straight neckpipe.

I still own my 42C, purchased in the late 80’s. At first I used the convertible pipe (straight horn w/o valve) about 30-40% of the time. After I changed the valve to an Ed Thayer, I used the straight horn very little, maybe 10% of the time. I still have the Thayer valve section, but I asked my tech to install a neckpipe that’s tapered instead of cylindrical. That made a big difference in the response and sound of the horn—I think it was improved.

About one year ago I purchased a pre-assembled valve section using an Instrument Innovations rotary valve and (I believe) M/K Drawing and Bending tubing. Another significant improvement. I can’t remember the last time I used the straight pipe.

OTOH, I have a friend with a Shires tenor who uses his straight and his TruBore interchangeably.

Different strokes.

[Dennis]

I also looked at the little bar thing sticking out of the neck pipe.

Yes, that's for your thumb. Unless an instrument was made as a straight horn, the main bell brace is too far back to be comfortable to hold.

I have a Shires with valve and straight neckpipes. It's a different horn with the straight neckpipe. I like both configurations, but I tend to play it with the valve for a couple of reasons. I can store the straight neckpipe in the Bonna soft case with the valve attached to the bell, but the valve does not fit into the case if the straight pipe is attached to the bell. If I'm playing first and the valve is on it's no big deal, but if I'm playing second and the valve is NOT on it can be a big deal.

So I have to know that I'm playing a part where I actively don't want the valve (for me, that means a first part with a pretty high tessitura) to swap things out, because if I do, the valve is staying at home. I play the straight horn maybe 10% of the time.

As far as the little thumbrest goes, occasionally I find myself pushing it trying to engage the non-existent valve. For myself, I prefer the Edwards/Bach solution of bending the brace so that it sits in the web of your thumb/forefinger like a non-convertible horn does. I like the reminder that the valve is not on-board.

[andym]

I have a custom Bach 36 convertible and love how it plays with the straight neck pipe. On my Shires 0.547, the straight neck pipe is fine but I don’t feel it is better for me than the rotor valve section. So, I think it is worth a try but not a sure thing.

[icelandarp]

Would you say it sort of acts like a thayer valve configuration minus the weight?

Thayer valves have no expansion within the passages and neither does the short connecting tube between the 2 valves, so a trombone with 2 independent Thayers has an entirely cylindrical passage between the receiver and the tuning slide. Straight neckpipes are conical. The bore expands throughout its length. So in theory it wouldn't be like Thayers.

Sorry I didn't clarify, by "thayer valve configuration" I meant having a thayer valve system, not necessarily a variation of a thayer set up,you know? Nevertheless, thanks for the response!

[Matt K]

Thayer valves have no expansion within the passages and neither does the short connecting tube between the 2 valves, so a trombone with 2 independent Thayers has an entirely cylindrical passage between the receiver and the tuning slide. Straight neckpipes are conical. The bore expands throughout its length. So in theory it wouldn't be like Thayers.

Sorry I didn't clarify, by "thayer valve configuration" I meant having a thayer valve system, not necessarily a variation of a thayer set up,you know? Nevertheless, thanks for the response!

I think that sounds pretty much like what brassmedic described. Thayer / Axial Flow valves all have the same basic shape internally and the wrap wouldn't matter, so for a bass trombone with thayers of any variety, you would expect to have no taper between the handslide receiver and the tuning slide receiver. (This assumes they are independent, not dependent, which would have a little bit of tapered tubing between the 1st valve and the tuning slide receiver).

That isn't unique to Thayers either, lots of valves are sufficiently large that it doesn't allow for any taper between the end of the 2nd valve and the start of the tuning slide receiver. Smaller rotors allow for 1" - 2" or so of tapered tubing. A neckpipe has a full length of tapering, which is likely going to feel different than if it were conical (no taper) throughout its entire length. Some valves have a taper through the valve ("Progressive Bore" Hagmann) or a different exit port size than entrance port (Shires Dual Bore rotor - tenors only), so you can emulate a neckpipe taper to some degree.

That's one of the reasons people play dependent trombones and independents aren't 100% of trombones made. Some players like the way that the extra tapering feels enough that it warrants putting the 2nd valve inside the wrap of the first valve so that you can still get the extra lower notes out of it, but have it feel more like a single valve bass.

[icelandarp]

Sorry I didn't clarify, by "thayer valve configuration" I meant having a thayer valve system, not necessarily a variation of a thayer set up,you know? Nevertheless, thanks for the response!

I think that sounds pretty much like what brassmedic described. Thayer / Axial Flow valves all have the same basic shape internally and the wrap wouldn't matter, so for a bass trombone with thayers of any variety, you would expect to have no taper between the handslide receiver and the tuning slide receiver. (This assumes they are independent, not dependent, which would have a little bit of tapered tubing between the 1st valve and the tuning slide receiver).

That isn't unique to Thayers either, lots of valves are sufficiently large that it doesn't allow for any taper between the end of the 2nd valve and the start of the tuning slide receiver. Smaller rotors allow for 1" - 2" or so of tapered tubing. A neckpipe has a full length of tapering, which is likely going to feel different than if it were conical (no taper) throughout its entire length. Some valves have a taper through the valve ("Progressive Bore" Hagmann) or a different exit port size than entrance port (Shires Dual Bore rotor - tenors only), so you can emulate a neckpipe taper to some degree.

That's one of the reasons people play dependent trombones and independents aren't 100% of trombones made. Some players like the way that the extra tapering feels enough that it warrants putting the 2nd valve inside the wrap of the first valve so that you can still get the extra lower notes out of it, but have it feel more like a single valve bass.

Ok now it's clicking into my head lol. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks!

[brassmedic]

Sorry I didn't clarify, by "thayer valve configuration" I meant having a thayer valve system, not necessarily a variation of a thayer set up,you know? Nevertheless, thanks for the response!

Independent Thayers are not a "variation". Almost all bass trombones with Thayers are independent setup. Also called "in line".

[icelandarp]

Sorry I didn't clarify, by "thayer valve configuration" I meant having a thayer valve system, not necessarily a variation of a thayer set up,you know? Nevertheless, thanks for the response!

Independent Thayers are not a "variation". Almost all bass trombones with Thayers are independent setup. Also called "in line".

[Model34]

Since the late ‘50s, and probably earlier, valves sections have dramatically improved! I understood the value of playing C in 1st, and B in 2nd. However, in 1959 I had been playing for 5 years. What I could not abide at the time was the horrible effect the valve had on the sound, and blow of the horn when the valve wasn’t engaged! At that time, valves were incredibly stuffy and further deteriorated the sound of a trombone when used. I decided then and there never to play a horn with a valve. Fast forward 55 years and values have improved while my right shoulder has deproved. So today some valves have no effect I can detect on the blow and sound quality of the Bb side and very little on the F side. BUT, going right along with the deproved function of my right shoulder is a decrease in my desire to hold all that extra weight when the music doesn’t call for it. So, neckpipe to the rescue! I find the little thumb bar on the Shires neckpipe to be an absolutely wonderful, thoughtful, ergonomic addition. Trust me, if you get old enough to say you’ve been playing trombone for 68 years, you too will appreciate ergonomics more. Less weight is more functional ability for much of the repertoire! If you can’t support the weight, you can’t play it. Old, but not dead yet. The thumb hook/ring adds significantly to my ability to hold a triggered horn, which is why I did this: it helps alot!!! And it facilitates using the trigger itself! Joe