Quote from: baileyman on Mar 25, 2017, 10:15AMThere seem to be three basic ways to get higher:
1 More air
2 Smaller aperture
3 tongue position
You can explore these on easy partials without busting your chops. Try F to Bb in the staff. Starting on F, add more air while trying to keep all else constant. You may find you can get back and forth controlling air alone.
Similarly, try getting from the F to the Bb by keeping all constant except contract your aperture.
And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i". You may find the note pops up.
You can do this in higher and higher partials and explore how they work. "Hard" high notes seem to be gotten to mostly by the "more air" approach. The aperture and especially the tongue seem to more dramatically tune the face for higher vibration. "easy" high notes exist. It's a matter of doing the exploration.
I think this is worth experimentation!
What I really like about his approach is that he doesn't just say "more air" - as others around here might - thinking that alone is enough (NO IT ISN'T!). He EXPLAINS what "more air" means and it makes sense to me and hopefully to others as well. I use it as an approach to slurring partials without dynamically changing the chops. I've been instructed not to change the chops for that exercise. Sure, the chops do change; but they passively change as the frequency of the vibration changes, instead of me actively trying to change the chops to change the frequency. BIG difference in tone quality!
Definitely worth some practice time to find the right combinations.
...Geezer
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
-
ttf_bonenick
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
We (or most of us) don't normally use more air in high register.
We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.
I hope that makes sense...
We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.
I hope that makes sense...
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 25, 2017, 11:57AMWe (or most of us) don't normally use more air in high register.
We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.
I hope that makes sense...
I know what you are stating, but I don't think you understand his concept. If I do, then it's bumping the note up with a small shot of air - kinda like giving a car a little momentary surge of gas to make the transmission change gears.
...Geezer
We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.
I hope that makes sense...
I know what you are stating, but I don't think you understand his concept. If I do, then it's bumping the note up with a small shot of air - kinda like giving a car a little momentary surge of gas to make the transmission change gears.
...Geezer
-
ttf_bonenick
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I would rather think of a garden hose...but yes, that's kind of the direction I am thinking....
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 08:23AMWell, the argument seems to be that it is not necessary. So I guess according to some, we aren't supposed to breath when playing b/c when we do - the diaphragm is engaged and that is the very essence of "breath support".
Geezer, you're beating this dead horse into a pulp, and you're misinterpreting what was said.
No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.
What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.
He's right. You should let it go.
Geezer, you're beating this dead horse into a pulp, and you're misinterpreting what was said.
No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.
What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.
He's right. You should let it go.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 03:21PMGeezer, you're beating this dead horse into a pulp, and you're misinterpreting what was said.
No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.
What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.
He's right. You should let it go.
Okay. I guess the mental roadblock was in thinking that Tim could be right on something.
Thanks!
Every now and again I just get hung on something.
...Geezer
No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.
What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.
He's right. You should let it go.
Okay. I guess the mental roadblock was in thinking that Tim could be right on something.
Thanks!
Every now and again I just get hung on something.
...Geezer
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Sometimes it is worth paying someone who knows, for an hour of their time. This is one such time. Find the right person and pay. This is not going to be sorted here. Good luck finding the right person.
-
ttf_bonenick
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Good call Blast. All the theories, videos and discussions are inferior to an hour with a pro who knows how and what to do.
That's what I tried to say all along - learning skills process should go with the least necessary analysis (by the student) - meaning we don't need to understand every little detail or why we can do what we do (that's teacher's call). Want to learn to play in the high register? Get a hang (a single lesson may not be enough, but it is something) with a teacher that can do it and has a number of students who also can.
That's what I tried to say all along - learning skills process should go with the least necessary analysis (by the student) - meaning we don't need to understand every little detail or why we can do what we do (that's teacher's call). Want to learn to play in the high register? Get a hang (a single lesson may not be enough, but it is something) with a teacher that can do it and has a number of students who also can.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Yeah, we advised the OP of that and I'm gonna do it as well.
You have to get instruction from with whom your faith lies and that ain't here.
It's been an interesting discussion though and it isn't like people were queued up 10 deep waiting to post. I've hit the ignore button plenty of times on plenty of other threads. We're all free to.
Others get hot on a certain topic as well from time-to-time. Human nature. Ain't no thing.
...Geezer
You have to get instruction from with whom your faith lies and that ain't here.
It's been an interesting discussion though and it isn't like people were queued up 10 deep waiting to post. I've hit the ignore button plenty of times on plenty of other threads. We're all free to.
Others get hot on a certain topic as well from time-to-time. Human nature. Ain't no thing.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
It's times like this that I'm glad that I have more high notes than I know what to do with.. 
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Notes I play originate from buzzing lips together in corners of the mouth. How high I play is proportional to the amount of muscle tension I have in the corners of my mouth. Aperture generally gets smaller due to higher muscle tension in corners. When I want to specifically increase my range, I practice exercises that work muscles in corners of the mouth.
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 25, 2017, 04:42PMIt's times like this that I'm glad that I have more high notes than I know what to do with..
Yea I have a high octave that I really don´t need. The trubble is that sometimes when I do need some high tones they are not there.
Yea I have a high octave that I really don´t need. The trubble is that sometimes when I do need some high tones they are not there.
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: baileyman on Mar 25, 2017, 10:15AMThere seem to be three basic ways to get higher:
1 More air
And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i". You may find the note pops up.
More air, or the right amount? I think it is less air, but has to be just right. I think blowing more air can work if you start below the amount you need and ramp up slowly. If you overshoot you lose it. I think. Not a high range expert here.
Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me. An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more. I think. This is subtle stuff in that range. For me. YMMV.
1 More air
And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i". You may find the note pops up.
More air, or the right amount? I think it is less air, but has to be just right. I think blowing more air can work if you start below the amount you need and ramp up slowly. If you overshoot you lose it. I think. Not a high range expert here.
Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me. An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more. I think. This is subtle stuff in that range. For me. YMMV.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 26, 2017, 04:16PMMore air, or the right amount? I think it is less air, but has to be just right. Not a high range expert here.
Why debate it then? I have a great high range. You need a lot of air. It moves through a more angled aperture at a faster rate than the mid range. Because the air is moving fast, you use just as much. That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.
The only register that uses more air is the pedal range. Especially with the F attachment. That sucks the air out of you.
I'm willing to back up these facts with a video if naysayers want. I'm also willing to bet that those who like using less air sound extremely thin in the upper register trying to "aperture" their way through that range.
Why debate it then? I have a great high range. You need a lot of air. It moves through a more angled aperture at a faster rate than the mid range. Because the air is moving fast, you use just as much. That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.
The only register that uses more air is the pedal range. Especially with the F attachment. That sucks the air out of you.
I'm willing to back up these facts with a video if naysayers want. I'm also willing to bet that those who like using less air sound extremely thin in the upper register trying to "aperture" their way through that range.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 26, 2017, 04:50PMI'm willing to back up these facts with a video if naysayers want. Please do.
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.
(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.
(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)
-
ttf_Ellrod
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
One exercise that was recommended to me was to play F in 6th ( 
) and slowly gliss up to Bb in 1st. Then try it with G->C. Work up to C -> F.
) and slowly gliss up to Bb in 1st. Then try it with G->C. Work up to C -> F.-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I do that as lip flexibilities, using pos 6-1, the first notes being A to C, C to Eb, Eb to F, F to G. It has more useful musical value as well IMO. Stop short of the Ab in 1st pos.
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 26, 2017, 04:50PM
That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.
Which m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?
That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.
Which m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 26, 2017, 04:50PMWhy debate it then? I have a great high range. You need a lot of air.
Wait, back up.
You say those who don't use a lot of air in the high range sound thin.
But.......they're playing in the high range, without a lot of air.
(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert. But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath. So I'm playing up there without air.)
Now you're subtly changing the position. Do you need a lot of air to play high? Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone?
And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air?
Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb. I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath.
Wait, back up.
You say those who don't use a lot of air in the high range sound thin.
But.......they're playing in the high range, without a lot of air.
(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert. But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath. So I'm playing up there without air.)
Now you're subtly changing the position. Do you need a lot of air to play high? Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone?
And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air?
Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb. I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath.
-
ttf_BillO
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 01:34AMI do that as lip flexibilities, using pos 6-1, the first notes being A to C, C to Eb, Eb to F. It has more useful musical value as well IMO. Stop short of the Ab in 1st pos.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you glissing from 6 to 1?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you glissing from 6 to 1?
-
ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Advice on hitting high notes?
Sure.
1-Learn to play the notes below them really well...with a good sound and no big shifts.
2-Then gradually connect that range with the ranges above it.
3-Then learn how to play higher that the desired "high notes" and connect down from there.
You did exactly the same thing as a beginner. Remember? When a 4th partial Bb or a fifth partial D was a "high note?"
Then they became easier and 7th partial G was a "high note."
Etcetera.
Same process, right on up.
Good support, good air and good practice.
Daily!
S.
Sure.
1-Learn to play the notes below them really well...with a good sound and no big shifts.
2-Then gradually connect that range with the ranges above it.
3-Then learn how to play higher that the desired "high notes" and connect down from there.
You did exactly the same thing as a beginner. Remember? When a 4th partial Bb or a fifth partial D was a "high note?"
Then they became easier and 7th partial G was a "high note."
Etcetera.
Same process, right on up.
Good support, good air and good practice.
Daily!
S.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Mar 26, 2017, 10:20PMPlease do.
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.
(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)
Noooo. An awesome player like YOU wasn't who was supposed to ask for a vid! It was supposed to be someone who can't play! But you got it. I'll get one out by mid week, with trepidation. ..
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 27, 2017, 04:58AM
(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert. But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath. So I'm playing up there without air.)
Now you're subtly changing the position. Do you need a lot of air to play high? Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone?
And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air?
Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb. I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath.
Squeaking out notes and sounding like crap is different from what I thought we were talking about. Those are your words -- not mine and you shouldn't be putting yourself down. But if you say that, how can you be offering advice about using less air for the high range?
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 03:51AMWhich m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?
By true, I mean a mouthpiece designed to do something like play high and sustained at the expense of other factors (like a full low register) rather than do everything well at once.
Greg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing. Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.
Griego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.
For his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")
The Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.
I don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.
(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)
Noooo. An awesome player like YOU wasn't who was supposed to ask for a vid! It was supposed to be someone who can't play! But you got it. I'll get one out by mid week, with trepidation. ..
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 27, 2017, 04:58AM
(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert. But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath. So I'm playing up there without air.)
Now you're subtly changing the position. Do you need a lot of air to play high? Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone?
And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air?
Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb. I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath.
Squeaking out notes and sounding like crap is different from what I thought we were talking about. Those are your words -- not mine and you shouldn't be putting yourself down. But if you say that, how can you be offering advice about using less air for the high range?
Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 03:51AMWhich m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?
By true, I mean a mouthpiece designed to do something like play high and sustained at the expense of other factors (like a full low register) rather than do everything well at once.
Greg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing. Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.
Griego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.
For his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")
The Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.
I don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: BillO on Mar 27, 2017, 07:18AMI'm not sure what you mean here. Are you glissing from 6 to 1?
Not glissing, but playing as normal flexibilities, i.e. quarter notes right through to triplets, and be sure to adjust for tuning.
Not glissing, but playing as normal flexibilities, i.e. quarter notes right through to triplets, and be sure to adjust for tuning.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I haven't forgotten about the video. I have been not exactly doing the musical part of job as planned at work lately, and have a little field trip that is happening (or may have already happened ... or may not be happening. ..) which is occupying my professional time, so it may be a small bit of time before I can create my video showing how air, resistance, and different registers all interplay. It won't be further out than a month when I post it here, however.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I was not going to get into this discussion, but I can't leave some of this unanswered.
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 27, 2017, 08:09AMGreg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing.And MANY other makers (including myself) have mouthpieces without huge throats, that also work well for high playing.
Quote Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.That's quite an exaggeration. A #15 is .180" and I've never seen a trombone mouthpiece with a throat anywhere near that. And Maynard played a lot more than high notes, he had a huge sound all over the horn.
QuoteGriego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.
QuoteFor his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")
QuoteThe Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.ALSO ignoring the many players who don't play on those kinds of designs. Sure Alessi and Lindberg have good high ranges but lots of other players do too, without using anything like those pieces.
QuoteI don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.Again, those few players and their mouthpieces are hardly representative of the dozens or hundreds of great jazz, studio, and classical players who really do have great range and sound all over the horn.
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 27, 2017, 08:09AMGreg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing.And MANY other makers (including myself) have mouthpieces without huge throats, that also work well for high playing.
Quote Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.That's quite an exaggeration. A #15 is .180" and I've never seen a trombone mouthpiece with a throat anywhere near that. And Maynard played a lot more than high notes, he had a huge sound all over the horn.
QuoteGriego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.
QuoteFor his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")
QuoteThe Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.ALSO ignoring the many players who don't play on those kinds of designs. Sure Alessi and Lindberg have good high ranges but lots of other players do too, without using anything like those pieces.
QuoteI don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.Again, those few players and their mouthpieces are hardly representative of the dozens or hundreds of great jazz, studio, and classical players who really do have great range and sound all over the horn.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Of course, Doug you know a thousand times more about designing a mouthpiece than 99.999% of all humans -- I will lose any discussion on mouthpiece design with you. I did try to put a statement like "some true high register mouthpieces", so it was clear I wasn't trying to state a rule.
The discussion of mouthpiece design gets away from the real point I was trying to make, which was that all the talk on this particular thread about the lack of a need for air support in the higher register is absolutely ludicrous. I tried using some well known legit players, and Maynard (who really did use a huge throat on his piece) and their ideas about their own mouthpieces to show that, if anything, more air = mo' better in the upper register.
I am in no way, whatsoever, trying to make it seem like I know a thing about making a mouthpiece. The logic just seemed pretty clear. Bigger hole for bigger air.
The discussion of mouthpiece design gets away from the real point I was trying to make, which was that all the talk on this particular thread about the lack of a need for air support in the higher register is absolutely ludicrous. I tried using some well known legit players, and Maynard (who really did use a huge throat on his piece) and their ideas about their own mouthpieces to show that, if anything, more air = mo' better in the upper register.
I am in no way, whatsoever, trying to make it seem like I know a thing about making a mouthpiece. The logic just seemed pretty clear. Bigger hole for bigger air.
-
ttf_bonenick
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I believe that what we do with our lips, tongue and throat is much more audible, than anything achieved by those specialist designs.
An example: Arturo Sandoval, who uses a standard 3C for most of his playing. And his sound is fat up there (and not only) as any other, Ferguson included.
For stratosphere range a "unfurl"ing set up seem to be rather popular among hign note specialist (at least on trumpet). FWIW I haven't figured it out how to do it sucessfuly.
I don't know if all of the above applies to trombone set ups, but I would rather think that it does. Maybe with slightly more space between jaws. Let me know if I am wrong in my assumptions.
An example: Arturo Sandoval, who uses a standard 3C for most of his playing. And his sound is fat up there (and not only) as any other, Ferguson included.
For stratosphere range a "unfurl"ing set up seem to be rather popular among hign note specialist (at least on trumpet). FWIW I haven't figured it out how to do it sucessfuly.
I don't know if all of the above applies to trombone set ups, but I would rather think that it does. Maybe with slightly more space between jaws. Let me know if I am wrong in my assumptions.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
"More air" and "more air pressure" are two very different things.
It takes LESS air to play high range, but more "pressure". Or "support.". But that doesn't mean blowing lots of air or needing a large mouthpiece throat.
It takes LESS air to play high range, but more "pressure". Or "support.". But that doesn't mean blowing lots of air or needing a large mouthpiece throat.
-
ttf_baileyman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 26, 2017, 04:16PMMore air, or the right amount? I think it is less air, but has to be just right. I think blowing more air can work if you start below the amount you need and ramp up slowly. If you overshoot you lose it. I think. Not a high range expert here.
Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me. An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more. I think. This is subtle stuff in that range. For me. YMMV.
I was talking about a *change* in air toward "more" where it's really hard to specify what "more" means. Like all economists laid end to end can't reach a conclusion, all brass players say something different when they say "air". "Air pressure", "air flow", "air resistance", "air impedance (the resistance you feel in the frequency feedback, and that's the real thing people call resistance, Bruce?)"? Maybe some of us have lab meters in our mouths so we can speak clearly about this stuff.
If you play an easy F in the staff, then suddenly add some kind of "air" (see above), you may find you can get to Bb that way and can control it. That is all.
Similarly if you add smaller aperture (is this what you guys mean when you say "focus"?).
Similarly if you suddenly add arched forward tongue movement.
That is all.
If anyone knows of other mechanisms that seem to lead to partial change, let me know. Practicing these things separately seems to be helpful, though I'm sure what actually happens is always a combination plus whatever else may have an effect, and in a way that cannot be understood but can be felt and remembered and repeated and improved.
Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me. An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more. I think. This is subtle stuff in that range. For me. YMMV.
I was talking about a *change* in air toward "more" where it's really hard to specify what "more" means. Like all economists laid end to end can't reach a conclusion, all brass players say something different when they say "air". "Air pressure", "air flow", "air resistance", "air impedance (the resistance you feel in the frequency feedback, and that's the real thing people call resistance, Bruce?)"? Maybe some of us have lab meters in our mouths so we can speak clearly about this stuff.
If you play an easy F in the staff, then suddenly add some kind of "air" (see above), you may find you can get to Bb that way and can control it. That is all.
Similarly if you add smaller aperture (is this what you guys mean when you say "focus"?).
Similarly if you suddenly add arched forward tongue movement.
That is all.
If anyone knows of other mechanisms that seem to lead to partial change, let me know. Practicing these things separately seems to be helpful, though I'm sure what actually happens is always a combination plus whatever else may have an effect, and in a way that cannot be understood but can be felt and remembered and repeated and improved.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Exactly, it's the combination of the right things in the right proportions. Not enough of something means other things have to compensate and you lose efficiency..
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
FWIW:
Clearly, it is difficult to have a truly meaningful and life-changing discussion on this topic when people have varying definitions or concepts of "air", "support", "focus", "intensity", etc. As far as I am concerned, if I really need instruction on something, I seek a direct one-on-one session with my instructor - whom I have good reason trust - on any topic.
For me, this gentleman sets a gold standard on tone in the high range and - for that matter - every range on a tenor trombone:
Al Grey: The More I See You
...Geezer
Clearly, it is difficult to have a truly meaningful and life-changing discussion on this topic when people have varying definitions or concepts of "air", "support", "focus", "intensity", etc. As far as I am concerned, if I really need instruction on something, I seek a direct one-on-one session with my instructor - whom I have good reason trust - on any topic.
For me, this gentleman sets a gold standard on tone in the high range and - for that matter - every range on a tenor trombone:
Al Grey: The More I See You
...Geezer
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
What I know?
The bottom lip rolls in, but not too much
The arch of the tongue comes forward/higher, but not too much
You need to have enough air, but not too much
The mouthpiece and lips as one cohesive unit moves up/down/left/right(depending on who you are) relative to the teeth, but not too much.
AND
Everything else has to stay put, as smaller changes make more of a difference; the basketball analogy earlier in the thread
Practically, I like to play a little melody using the first three notes of a scale. Breath attack on the initial note and then just glisses or partial breaks between notes. Start somewhere comfortable, and move that melody up in half steps, breathing in through the nose without moving the embouchure between each modulation.
Play them like moving long tones, and make sure to get the most resonant, overtone rich sound on each note. A lot of the times with exercises we forget that the whole point of playing the trombone is to make music, so a simple melody helps the brain learn the notes in context. Also keeps it from getting too boring.
When I miss a note, I reset and try again. Miss it twice, I put the horn down for ten second break, and then reset and play a scale down and back up from that note, starting and ending with a quarter note, all other notes eighths.
It's okay to miss the top note on the initial attack, but it's good to try to hold it full length at the end. Breath through the nose for a bar, not moving anything, and then do it again a half step down at a time until you find yourself working on low range.
Then have a coffee, listen to some playing, organize your practice folder, check your email... and move on.
The bottom lip rolls in, but not too much
The arch of the tongue comes forward/higher, but not too much
You need to have enough air, but not too much
The mouthpiece and lips as one cohesive unit moves up/down/left/right(depending on who you are) relative to the teeth, but not too much.
AND
Everything else has to stay put, as smaller changes make more of a difference; the basketball analogy earlier in the thread
Practically, I like to play a little melody using the first three notes of a scale. Breath attack on the initial note and then just glisses or partial breaks between notes. Start somewhere comfortable, and move that melody up in half steps, breathing in through the nose without moving the embouchure between each modulation.
Play them like moving long tones, and make sure to get the most resonant, overtone rich sound on each note. A lot of the times with exercises we forget that the whole point of playing the trombone is to make music, so a simple melody helps the brain learn the notes in context. Also keeps it from getting too boring.
When I miss a note, I reset and try again. Miss it twice, I put the horn down for ten second break, and then reset and play a scale down and back up from that note, starting and ending with a quarter note, all other notes eighths.
It's okay to miss the top note on the initial attack, but it's good to try to hold it full length at the end. Breath through the nose for a bar, not moving anything, and then do it again a half step down at a time until you find yourself working on low range.
Then have a coffee, listen to some playing, organize your practice folder, check your email... and move on.
-
ttf_bonenick
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
It may be useful to remember that it function as a system. We often tweak more than one aspect of our playing to get better results....
-
ttf_Dixieland57
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:32 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
LOT of air support and not too much pressure on your lips.
And as any other note hear it in your head before you play it.
And as any other note hear it in your head before you play it.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
[s][Removed. The limited time offer ended][/s]
Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!
http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E
Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!
http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Lol! But what I like about your clip is that you actually sound terrific! No making freaky noises like Skeletor hissing through the trombone for you!
OBTW; I get it. Great concept!
Do you accept Bitcoin?
...Geezer
OBTW; I get it. Great concept!
Do you accept Bitcoin?
...Geezer
-
ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 06, 2017, 03:29PMLol! But what I like about your clip is that you actually sound terrific! No making freaky noises like Skeletor hissing through the trombone for you!
OBTW; I get it. Great concept!
Do you accept Bitcoin?
...Geezer
Harrison, great clip!
Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!
OBTW; I get it. Great concept!
Do you accept Bitcoin?
...Geezer
Harrison, great clip!
Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 03, 2017, 02:58PM[s][Removed. The limited time offer ended][/s]
Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!
http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E
Er.. This is a bit esoteric. Care to elucidate?
Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!
http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E
Er.. This is a bit esoteric. Care to elucidate?
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 07:41 AMEr.. This is a bit esoteric. Care to elucidate?
well, yes. But it costs $19.99!
well, yes. But it costs $19.99!
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
The secrets! The elucidation!
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 04:08PMHarrison, great clip!
Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!
Thanks, man. I can tell you it wasn't on high range development, though. lol I'm lucky if I can hit a decent double-high Eb! How pathetic is that!
...Geezer
Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!
Thanks, man. I can tell you it wasn't on high range development, though. lol I'm lucky if I can hit a decent double-high Eb! How pathetic is that!
...Geezer
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Something that gets tossed out occasionally is the need to train for high notes at a lower dynamic. I believe this in turn, reduces the volume of air and allows the chops to vibrate a little more easily. I know it does for me.
I was introduced to a term recently that is very descriptive and I believe it expresses a common fault among students who are striving for a higher range. Smash-mouth. I love that term and I think it very vividly describes what a player should NOT do when striving to increase range. IOW's, back off; mpc pressure and air volume.
...Geezer
I was introduced to a term recently that is very descriptive and I believe it expresses a common fault among students who are striving for a higher range. Smash-mouth. I love that term and I think it very vividly describes what a player should NOT do when striving to increase range. IOW's, back off; mpc pressure and air volume.
...Geezer
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Or do the opposite of that. President Obama-- er, I mean, Joseph Alessi talks about air and the upper register. Caveat, his video is edited right before the excerpt, so he might not actually know what he's talking about:
http://youtube.com/v/Mm8lPg8O0vw
http://youtube.com/v/Mm8lPg8O0vw
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Lol. Squeaking wasn't actually what I was referring to.
UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!
I will forgo the usual $19.99 payment request. lol I advocate to myself to find the higher notes rather softly and very very slowly increase their dynamic. My goal is to have screamer high notes, but I can't jump the gun or I am afraid I will jump the shark! Not asking for advice here guys (Timothy42B)! That is between my instructor and me. Just participating in a Sunday morning discussion of what I believe in as a solid approach. What works for you?
...Geezer
UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!
I will forgo the usual $19.99 payment request. lol I advocate to myself to find the higher notes rather softly and very very slowly increase their dynamic. My goal is to have screamer high notes, but I can't jump the gun or I am afraid I will jump the shark! Not asking for advice here guys (Timothy42B)! That is between my instructor and me. Just participating in a Sunday morning discussion of what I believe in as a solid approach. What works for you?
...Geezer
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here.
-
ttf_Pre59
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 11:34AMI sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here.
Wot, Geezerhorn, veiled?
Wot, Geezerhorn, veiled?
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 06:24AMLol. Squeaking wasn't actually what I was referring to.
UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!
I don't think you quite got it. "Squeaking" high notes was what he was trying to avoid, not what he was teaching. And he placed his hand across his abdomen, not his diaphragm. I think confusing the two leads to a lot of misunderstanding among brass students.
UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!
I don't think you quite got it. "Squeaking" high notes was what he was trying to avoid, not what he was teaching. And he placed his hand across his abdomen, not his diaphragm. I think confusing the two leads to a lot of misunderstanding among brass students.
-
ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Piano man on Jul 09, 2017, 11:58AMI don't think you quite got it. "Squeaking" high notes was what he was trying to avoid, not what he was teaching. And he placed his hand across his abdomen, not his diaphragm. I think confusing the two leads to a lot of misunderstanding among brass students.
Oh! I thought it was Harrison who was advocating "do the opposite of that" - referring to what Joe was going to talk about in the upcoming video he posted. No, Joe wasn't talking about finding new notes by squeaking. He was talking about actually playing notes.
...Geezer
Oh! I thought it was Harrison who was advocating "do the opposite of that" - referring to what Joe was going to talk about in the upcoming video he posted. No, Joe wasn't talking about finding new notes by squeaking. He was talking about actually playing notes.
...Geezer
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 01:09PMOh! I thought it was Harrison who was advocating "do the opposite of that" - referring to what Joe was going to talk about in the upcoming video he posted.
I think he was saying that Alessi's approach was the opposite of yours. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.
I think he was saying that Alessi's approach was the opposite of yours. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.