Trombone mimicry

[Xtroid]

Hey all,
I am a 1st chair honors high school trombonist and we are playing some pieces with intricate horn parts (our horn section is small and not very good long story short) and I noticed over time that i can play those same parts, and so I asked my director to take up some of those parts (ofc i will transpose it myself) but I want to make it seem like a horn is playing. What mute/technique should I use so I don't stand out?
(i would also like to know how to sound like other instruments so it would be cool to discuss that too)

[BGuttman]

To sound like a horn "stick your hand in the bell and play a lot of wrong notes"

Actually, play using the outer positions as much as possible to mimic the effect of the long tube length of the horn. The hand in the bell is not a bad idea, but playing that way on a trombone is a bit difficult. Maybe try using a felt hat mute over the bell instead.

You can read French Horn parts in F by using Mezzo-soprano clef: the movable C clef is placed on the 2nd line from the bottom of the staff, and you remove one flat (or add one sharp) from the key signature. Remember that what looks like a "B#" is B natural, and "B natural" is Bb.

Orchestral horn parts come in a variety of transpositions and learning how to play them can be quite a challenge. I remember bringing my new alto trombone to rehearsal one day and our 1st Horn was absent. They asked me to play her part on Siegfried's Rhine Journey. I did OK on the Horn in F, Horn in C, Horn in G, and Horn in Bb. But when I hit a Horn in E [natural] my brain fried. How do you play a Horn in E part on an instrument in Eb?

Another challenge is those parts in transposed bass clef. I have no idea which octave they are supposed to be, and I get two different answers from my horn playing friends.

[OneTon]

I use outer slide positions and vary the distance to a Manhasset stand from bell while playing into the stand. Start with 5-6 inches.

[Doug Elliott]

Look at it in reverse... What would you tell a horn player who was covering a trombone part?

Just play it well and don't worry about it. The sound isn't THAT different.

I've covered clarinet parts, viola parts, bassoon, and bass trombone on a tenor. Play at the appropriate volume and don't worry about the sound.

[harrisonreed]

Play everything in 6th and 7th with the valve depressed, no matter how out of tune it gets. The gestures are what matters

[Burgerbob]

Just play it well and don't worry about it. The sound isn't THAT different.

[robcat2075]

Get a bucket mute.

If you can always be about a 16th note late and splat half the high notes they'll be sure it's a real horn.

[brassmedic]

Stick your hand in the bell and miss a lot of notes.

I'll show myself out...

[Xtroid]

will any kind of mute work well? I only own a fiber cup mute and a metal straight mute so idk if that would work :/

[BGuttman]

Your metal straight might work for the case when the part is marked "brassy", but it's not going to give that muffled sound most french horns have.

You could possibly make a mute from an old sweatshirt that would serve, but as a student I wouldn't put any money into this venture. Just play the part as well as you can and enjoy the ride. I did so playing the 1st Horn part in the Hamilton-Harty arrangement of Water Music (especially since the 2nd horn didn't read Horn in Bb, which half the part was). I also played the 4th horn part in Tchaikovsky's "Waltz of the flowers" (Nutcracker), I was playing a bass trombone and I had 3 real horns on top of me, so the tonal difference really didn't matter that much.

[robcat2075]

A straight mute gets you farther from the characteristic sound of a horn than an un-muted trombone does.

The veiled sound with the rough edges removed is what it's about.

Previous thread on making a bucket mute...

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=9281


But, as others noted, having the part covered is the most important thing.

[timothy42b]

Actually, play using the outer positions as much as possible to mimic the effect of the long tube length of the horn.

I'm not sure this makes sense, for two reasons.

I've tried to sound like a horn by using all long positions. It worked at first, then by the end of a piece it seemed to stop working. My hypothesis, the sound is changed when you don't have the positions dialed in; by working on it a bit and getting the positions right the timbre is normal.

Secondly, horn has a Bb side and an F trigger a 4th lower, just like a tenor trombone. Doesn't the physics suggest they must be the same length? I don't think the horn is BBb, just Bb.

I didn't know there are two tubing routings, full double and semi-double. https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instr ... sm003.html

There's a study out there somewhere that says if you record and trim off the articulation, just leaving the steady part of the note, people can't tell the difference. Still, you would think that tiny mouthpiece would have some effect, depending on the range.

[robcat2075]

Secondly, horn has a Bb side and an F trigger a 4th lower, just like a tenor trombone. Doesn't the physics suggest they must be the same length?

You mean the Bb Horn and Bb trombone are the same length? Yes.

There are a multitude of things that the Horn sound is ascribed to...

the Mouthpiece. More of a funnel and less of a sharp cup contour

The conical bore. However, any portion that is in the valves has to still be cylindrical and even before valves were invented horn players were adding substantial cylindrical crooks to achieve different keys.

Higher partials. Using the long horn and then playing the higher partial on it may create a smoother timbre. This is the premise for playing "horn" on trombone in outer positions. But a Bb horn has less of that going on. It has the partials in the same place as a Bb Trombone

Damping. The hand in the bell and the aiming of the bell to a rear wall serve to remove higher/noisier overtones.

The only one of those the trombone player can make a big change on is the damping. Get a bucket mute, play into a shag carpet...

[Crazy4Tbone86]

My goodness.....this thread has severely derailed. Just play the right notes, in tune, with accurate rhythms, articulations, phrasing and dynamics. Don't use unfamiliar alternate positions that will probably be out of tune. Don't use an assortment of mutes, a shag carpet or a sweatshirt. Don't go looking for a mouthpiece that is deep and funnel shaped.

Just play the darn part tastefully and don't worry about trying to imitate the tone quality of a horn. If the group was so concerned about having another instrument match the characteristic tone quality of a horn, the organization would have spent the money to hire a professional horn player!

[robcat2075]

It's not "derailing the thread" to offer answers to the question that was explicitly asked...

...but I want to make it seem like a horn is playing...

That is the OP's inquiry. He is entirely capable of trying these things out and deciding if they are effective and worth the bother. If he isn't, it will take his band director all of 5 seconds to tell him instead. No harm will come from his experiments.

He already knows he's supposed to play the right notes. He doesn't need that to be repeatedly explained to him.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have been a band/orchestra teacher for 37 years. For 18 of those years, I taught in a large high school program. I presently have 27 high school "preparatory" private lesson students in addition to my college students in my studio. My experience has been that high school students can easily get wrapped up in projects and tangents that, while well-intended, are not worth the time invested. On this forum, I think it is our responsibility to help these younger musicians make wise decisions.

I have covered horn parts on trombone, euphonium, trumpet and cornet on dozens of gigs.....mostly pit orchestras and brass quintets. In these performance situations, playing with clarity, accuracy and excellent ensemble skills has always been the most important thing. In the end, this is the best wisdom that we can pass on to a young, ambitious musician.

[Doug Elliott]

This reminds me of a sort of similar issue. If there's a muted section that's impossible because there's not enough time to get the mute in, is it better to fumble around trying to get the mute and failing so you don't play the part at all, ...or to play it open without the mute?

My point is, having the notes there is usually more important than the details.

[harrisonreed]

You're supposed to clamp it onto a mic stand for the fastest mute changes in the land!!

[Matt K]

Agree with Doug and crazytbone86; this is an “XY” problem that needs a higher level answer than the literal answer to the question. At the high school level and for… most professional work even… if a trombone is being tapped to play French horn it’s perfectly acceptable and ideal to just play as is without trying to emulate the timbre of a French horn.

I do prefer if a trumpet is covering an oboe part for it to be in a Harmon mute rather than without but for brass to brass… I would recommend as others have… nothing special.

On a more practical level, Doug you should have a two bell trombone for your quick mute changes!

[Posaunus]

If there's a muted section that's impossible because there's not enough time to get the mute in, is it better to fumble around trying to get the mute and failing so you don't play the part at all, ...or to play it open without the mute?

My point is, having the notes there is usually more important than the details.

I inevitably skip the mutes in those impossible/awkward situations, and just play the right notes. It saves the precious pristine bells on my trombones from damage as I try to cram in a mute with insufficient time to do it carefully!

[harrisonreed]

[Crazy4Tbone86]

This reminds me of a sort of similar issue. If there's a muted section that's impossible because there's not enough time to get the mute in, is it better to fumble around trying to get the mute and failing so you don't play the part at all, ...or to play it open without the mute?

My point is, having the notes there is usually more important than the details.

Exactly! I have no problem with exploration of tone color, alternate positions, experimenting with mutes, rugs, etc.... With a young player, the most important advice they need to hear is "make quality music." I worry about young players not seeing the bigger picture. Here are some examples of my own students being preoccupied with little things that "messed with their heads"......

Several years back, I was giving lessons to a talented high school student who was preparing for a "high school senior recital" that he was sharing with another high school senior. On that program, he planned to play Frank Martin's Ballade which has a few measures of interesting ascending lines that are supposed to be played with alternate positions while moving the slide from inner positions going outward. It's a well-known little excerpt and interesting part. My student could play the piece very well, but he was not happy with the intonation on the alternate-position part. Thus......he wanted to remove the piece from the recital and rework the entire program. I had to sit down with him a convince him that it was OK to play those few measures in "first choice" positions and that I would probably be the only person in the audience that would know that he did it. It took a lot of convincing to make him realize that playing it that way would be OK.

Just recently, I had a euphonium student (who plays very well) come in for a lesson and really struggle. For the last 18-24 months, he had routinely played two octave scales and literature that goes to high B-flat. Suddenly, he could barely play a C above the bass clef staff. I stopped him and asked him what was going on. He explained that he saw some videos on the Internet in which trumpet players were able to play extremely high with zero mouthpiece pressure. For some reason, he was completely intoxicated with this notion to the point where he didn't realize that he was destroying his own playing. Fortunately, I was able to persuade him that his embouchure was fine the way it was and he was able to shake off that episode in about three weeks.

I know that I am over-reacting, but I do worry about young players and I want them to utilize their time and efforts wisely. For some reason, I started to visualize a high school trombone player walking into a rehearsal with an assortment of rugs and bucket mutes made from large pots and pans. After setting up their performance station, the trombonist would proceed to play an entire rehearsal using only 5th position and beyond. All of this done while rigging up something that holds the trigger constantly engaged because they are reaching around to stick their left hand in the bell!

[timothy42b]

Higher partials. Using the long horn and then playing the higher partial on it may create a smoother timbre. This is the premise for playing "horn" on trombone in outer positions. But a Bb horn has less of that going on. It has the partials in the same place as a Bb Trombone

The only one of those the trombone player can make a big change on is the damping. Get a bucket mute, play into a shag carpet...

I hadn't paid paid much attention to how the horn works, except to be glad I don't have to restring four valves just before an entrance.

A little google says that a rough rule of thumb, with a good bit of exceptions, is play in Bb above middle C concert and F below. I guess if you really wanted to emulate a horn in the staff with a trombone you'd keep your trigger pressed, but then you'd have to practice that range a lot. Horn parts I've covered on occasion have all been much much higher than that.