Tuning the notes above high f

[none4u]

I've been practicing really hard recently and my range is improving(Lucky me!) to the point where I now have the ability to play the high b flat an octave above the bar line. But woes abound in this register!

I'm struggling to get the notes from f sharp above the bar line to the b flat above that to be in pitch. I know lots of this just comes with practice, but specifically how do y'all find the locations of these notes on the slide and how can I learn to do that too?

[Matt K]

I'm a big fan of using drones for this. It's not just intonation, it's also overtones. I used to have a habit of pinching up there which made it sound sharp even when I was in tune, and also of course resulted in an excessively bright and counterintuitive thin sound. Lots of arpeggios and scales with drones really helps solidify that.

[Mr412]

Until your embouchure gets right, those notes might tend to float. I had an Eb above the staff float all the way from b2nd to b4th until it settled down. I thought the horn was wonky. It was me. Listen. Adjust. Stabilize. You'll get it.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I’d be interested to know what positions you are currently using. I would also like to know what techniques or patterns you are currently using to practice these notes.

Over the years, I have had many students with strong natural talents come to me for instruction. They had tried to figure out the upper register (and several other things) on the trombone without an experienced instructor. Thus, many things about the instrument did not make sense to them because they had missed many important building blocks of knowledge along the way.

I mean no disrespect to these students. I actually admire their resourcefulness. However, there does come a time when a reliable, knowledgeable teacher is absolutely necessary for advancing a person’s skills on an instrument. Do you currently have a trombone teacher?

[WilliamLang]

For notes above high F I like to use the same positions that you would play 8vb.

For example G5 and G6 would be in the same sightly raised 2nd position that G4 is. There's a strong muscle memory tired to those positions, and if you look at the octaves more as colors than distinct pitches you can draw on that mind-body connection.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think that's the octave in question for the OP.

[WilliamLang]

ah! well then, drones and glissandos.

[harrisonreed]

You do absolutely need to play in the slot and have a stable embouchure up there, of course, but once you are able to do those things, you can still get wonky intonation in the form of stretched or compressed octaves with a bad mouthpiece design. If you can play with a good sound up there but you're consistently sharp or flat even though the lower octave is in tune, you might have an issue with the bore and backbore of the mouthpiece.

You can test it out with 4 Bbs, if the low and middle Bb are in tune, but the pedal is flat and the high Bb is sharp, and everything sounds good, something might be up with the backbore.

[BGuttman]

I think OP's problem is something we all have to work through as we develop.

Just to set some parameters, C above the bass staff is C4 (this is a pitch naming convention).

Once you get to F4 (above C4) the partials now start to get very close together and are not necessarily in tune (per Equal Temprament, which is what we use tuners for and use in ensembles).

The next partial above the F4 has Ab in 1st position, but it is VERY flat. Ab4 is not playable in 1st position and G4 is in "1 1/2" position.

Next partial above that has Bb4 in 1st position. The notes require a lot more embouchure strength to hit, which is why we spend time doing the Rangebuilding exercise like Remington #8 (Security in the Upper Register).

Going up one more partial has C5 (note that the numbers change on C, so C5 is a whole step above Bb4) in 1st position. In this partial, Bb4 is in 3rd position and can sometimes be sharpened to compensate for weak embouchure muscles. We get into arguments about whether Bb4 is better in 1st or 3rd, and each is true for different people. That is where practicing comes in.

Now we have another partial where D5 is in 1st position. Again, if the embouchure is not strong it will be unplayably flat. Note that if you can't hit the Bb4 partial in tune, forget about any of the ones above it.

Extreme range is not simply selecting a set of keys like on a saxophone. You have to work your way into it on any brass instrument. This doesn't come easy or overnight. You have to work intelligently at it. Non-brass playing music teachers think that 2 octave scales in all keys should be in everybody's repertoire. But if you have a tenor trombone where the lowest Eb is in the bass staff (Eb3) getting to 2 octaves above that is VERY difficult. If you have an instrument where there is an F-attachment and you can play Eb2 in T3 and all you need for your 2 octaves is to get to Eb4 2 lines above the bass staff you are home free. Note that this limitation applies to all 3 valved brass as well.

I have sympathy for the OP's plight, especially if he has been hit with the "2 octave rule". OP's BD should be aware that some 2 octave scales are beyond the capability of beginning brass students and should take the student's side when unreasonable expectations are made.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Bruce hits many points very accurately. There are many “rites of passage” that a brass player must go through and UNDERSTAND before things like high register and extended scales make sense.

To complicate matters, trombone playing is different and unique from other brass instruments. We actually regularly use the 7th partial (G in #2nd and F# in #3rd) while the valved instruments must avoid that partial.

For the OP, I return to my original questions. What slide positions are you using? How do you practice the upper register? Are you studying with a qualified teacher?

A very wise music teacher once told me this: A little bit of information (even if it is correct information) can do a lot of harm if taken in the wrong direction. A little bit of information (if applied correctly) can also solve a lot of problems. There can be a very fine line between success and disaster on a musical instrument. That is where a good teacher is so important.

[Mr412]

You do absolutely need to play in the slot and have a stable embouchure up there, of course, but once you are able to do those things, you can still get wonky intonation in the form of stretched or compressed octaves with a bad mouthpiece design. If you can play with a good sound up there but you're consistently sharp or flat even though the lower octave is in tune, you might have an issue with the bore and backbore of the mouthpiece.

You can test it out with 4 Bbs, if the low and middle Bb are in tune, but the pedal is flat and the high Bb is sharp, and everything sounds good, something might be up with the backbore.

Maybe! Nobody likes to sit and endlessly practice drills. Everybody wants to have the quick fix that flips the light switch. That usually means either a correction to the embouchure or a quest for the magic mouthpiece.

I'm curious as to how you might advise someone to try different mouthpiece rims, bores and backbores without sinking a fortune into a whole cabinet full of mouthpieces, most of which will prove to be worthless. Perhaps go to a clinic or bone show somewhere? A box full of used mouthpieces at a music store? Bone-playing buddies?

P.S. I'm not trying to call you out. This is just a discussion. Thanks.

[BGuttman]

...

I'm curious as to how you might advise someone to try different mouthpiece rims, bores and backbores without sinking a fortune into a whole cabinet full of mouthpieces, most of which will prove to be worthless. Perhaps go to a clinic or bone show somewhere? A box full of used mouthpieces at a music store? Bone-playing buddies?

...

I used to have a music store that had a box of used mouthpieces at cheap prices and I bought a bunch of them to test. As a Middle School student this was all I could afford.

The "borrow from a buddy" never worked for me. Most of my buddies had mouthpieces I already had tried and rejected.

The old Trombone Forum used to have a "Mouthpiece Experimentation Kit" where we put a bunch of mouthpieces in a box to let people borrow, test out, and forward to the next person. Worked great until one kid decided he could just keep them (and maybe sell them on Ebay). There's always a spoiler in any crowd

[harrisonreed]

You do absolutely need to play in the slot and have a stable embouchure up there, of course, but once you are able to do those things, you can still get wonky intonation in the form of stretched or compressed octaves with a bad mouthpiece design. If you can play with a good sound up there but you're consistently sharp or flat even though the lower octave is in tune, you might have an issue with the bore and backbore of the mouthpiece.

You can test it out with 4 Bbs, if the low and middle Bb are in tune, but the pedal is flat and the high Bb is sharp, and everything sounds good, something might be up with the backbore.

Maybe! Nobody likes to sit and endlessly practice drills. Everybody wants to have the quick fix that flips the light switch. That usually means either a correction to the embouchure or a quest for the magic mouthpiece.

I'm curious as to how you might advise someone to try different mouthpiece rims, bores and backbores without sinking a fortune into a whole cabinet full of mouthpieces, most of which will prove to be worthless. Perhaps go to a clinic or bone show somewhere? A box full of used mouthpieces at a music store? Bone-playing buddies?

I don't think it's that simple as finding the magic mouthpiece. You get better at your craft, and you can assess the gear better. You can make more informed decisions. If I could go back in time 20 years and hand myself what I play now, which is very easy to play, it probably wouldn't work for young me. The knowledge of how to use it wouldn't be there.

Something I play with the approach I have now, where the octaves all line up and it's amazing, might have stretched octaves if 20 year old me played it.

You can't get better without practice and learning your own mechanics. Eventually you can't get better if your equipment is working against you. For example, I was using mouthpieces that didn't have a wide enough cup diameter, and moving to a larger size let my embouchure function better. Then I had to practice a lot more to learn my embouchure mechanics with the new space. Now you've got something to go off of, a baseline, where it's like, yeah, 90% of this is really working, but now I'm noticing stretched octaves even though I know I'm centered on the pitch, or I can't play loudly enough for the venue/group, or I chop out on soft playing. Do I practice around that, or do I look further into what I can do equipment wise to fix it?

Those are the three biggest issues that it was easier to solve by making equipment choices, rather than practicing against my equipment. A tighter backbore solved the stretched octaves. A larger throat makes both FFF and ppp playing easier, and gives a lot more access to dynamic changes. I didn't do it by trial and error, I already knew what worked, and I Frankensteined a mouthpiece together. The one time I guessed and took a leap was the first time I bought a wider mouthpiece.

[johntarr]

I'm curious as to how you might advise someone to try different mouthpiece rims, bores and backbores without sinking a fortune into a whole cabinet full of mouthpieces, most of which will prove to be worthless. Perhaps go to a clinic or bone show somewhere? A box full of used mouthpieces at a music store? Bone-playing buddies?

P.S. I'm not trying to call you out. This is just a discussion. Thanks.

I had a skype consultation with Doug Elliot and then tried several variations that he sent me. It was money well spent and very reasonable in comparison to some of the previous mouthpiece searches I’d done on my own.