Endurance

[BrassSection]

Wondering what a good endurance time is. Playing an all music night at church awhile back swapping between trumpet and trombone and in the second hour I could feel the trombone slipping away. Switched to trumpet for a few songs with no problems, and was able to resume trombone trouble free until the end. Was just wondering what a reasonable endurance time is. Full disclosure: I’m lucky to get three 20 to 30 minute practices in a week, and unless I am playing scored music, my trumpet is the only regularly practiced horn. Weekly music spend about 45 minutes average in rehearsal for about a 30 minute playing time. Trumpet and trombone get about 90% of play time, the other is split between French horn and euphonium.

[harrisonreed]

It depends on the music, and the tuning of the group. If the music is easy and not loud, and the group is in tune, I could probably play until I dehydrated. If the group is badly out of tune even if the music is easy brass choir stuff, probably 30 minutes before my lip goes. Nothing I can do about it.

We did a very difficult program on one concert where my parts were mostly hovering around Bb3 to Bb4, weighted around the F and G. Everything was FF the entire time, not a lot of rest. After an hour of that the last piece was Stars and Stripes, as an encore, and yeah I probably could not have done another loud piece after that.

[BrassSection]

As a side note to endurance, haven’t had any marathons yet, but since I’ve had my Old Faithful mouthpiece rim and cup gold plated it is more comfortable to play. Looking forward to it some day.

[Mr412]

It depends on the music, and the tuning of the group. If the music is easy and not loud, and the group is in tune, I could probably play until I dehydrated. If the group is badly out of tune even if the music is easy brass choir stuff, probably 30 minutes before my lip goes. Nothing I can do about it.

We did a very difficult program on one concert where my parts were mostly hovering around Bb3 to Bb4, weighted around the F and G. Everything was FF the entire time, not a lot of rest. After an hour of that the last piece was Stars and Stripes, as an encore, and yeah I probably could not have done another loud piece after that.

I once heard a knock-down, drag-out concert performed by - - - - - Tiny Tim! Yes, Tiny Tim. His second set consisted of a one-hour-long continuous medley of patriotic songs, increasing in intensity, culminating with - I think - It's A Grand Old Flag - where he feigned passing out on stage at the very end. It brought the frickin' house down - in tears.

You do that in concert and I just might spring for a case of whatever Gatorade you might like.

[Mr412]

Anyway, unless one is naturally gifted in this department, endurance is usually earned.

I think it was Linda Ronstadt who quipped once that, in her prime, she had to sing hard every night to keep her chops up to where she could sing hard every night. The same is true for most of us. Charlie Parker supposedly played all day long in his hotel room and then played all night long at clubs. Louis Armstrong had lip callouses. Was it George Harrison: "I've got blisters on my fingers!" Etc. Etc.

[timothy42b]

Doug Elliott told me once that if you get your mouth resonance exactly right you can play forever.

Still working on it.

[Burgerbob]

I'll point out that you're doubling on trombone and trumpet, two instruments that don't necessarily complement each other in the endurance department.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I'll point out that you're doubling on trombone and trumpet, two instruments that don't necessarily complement each other in the endurance department.

I agree with this. I usually play trumpet about three hours a day while teaching elementary band and orchestra. I figured out over 30 years ago that it is the easiest instrument to play while being able to point at notes on the page (for my students) with your left hand.

One would think that this would give me “chops of steel”on the trombone…..it does not. If I want to have great endurance on the trombone, I must spend regular time specifically on the trombone.

[Mr412]

YUP! Endurance is earned.

But there have been discussions in the past on ways to practice to increase endurance.

1) Fine lip buzzing - for 1 or 2 minutes a day being hailed as "weightlifting for the chops"

2) Endurance training - where the chops stay in constant contact with the mp, even to the point of breathing in through the nose and maintaining the play buzz as long as possible (to a point).

Seems to me that an over-enthusiastic person could actually do damage and reduce their endurance by over-doing it, especially on #2 - and sustain soft-tissue injury.

When I wanted to increase my endurance, I preferred the more gradual approach of trying to increase my play time in length and difficulty incrementally over weeks and months.

Probably the best way, though is to make sure the actual mechanics of the chops, etc are as in-the-zone as possible. I notice that when my sound and articulation are the best they have ever been and I am as relaxed and self-confident as ever, my endurance sky-rockets. Takes much less chop and overall body work, I guess.

[imsevimse]

I don't get to the point where I get so tired so I cannot play anymore. It did happen in my youth but not anymore. It could mean I don't play demanding stuff or if could mean I have a strong emboushure, it is probably both actually.
I don't think there is a right answer to this question. It depends...

/Tom

[BrassSection]

There is hope for my doubling on trumpet, my grandson is a trumpet player and is considering joining me, if I make home some cheat sheets to start. If he works out, it would greatly reduce my trumpet time and free up more trombone, euph, and French horn time. Have a professional trumpet player that joins me occasionally, and some songs just beg for 2 trumpets, but I usually play my bone or euph when he’s there.

[BrassSection]

Thanks for all the input, lots of good info, I really appreciate you guys! Almost forgot, won’t be putting trumpet away as much as I thought…my grandson is on the rotating schedule with 2 other bass players. Not a lot of choice for multiple instruments, only brass player they have for now, nobody else wants to improv. I gotta fit the horns to the songs. Euph and trombone fit the bill today, but every week is different. Last week it was all trumpet. French horn might get a month between uses, but sometimes it’s the one that works best for certain songs. Gonna get by this Christmas without having to break out the tuba…at least as far as I know for now.

[Kbiggs]

That’s a lot of face time with different instruments and mouthpieces. I haven’t any idea whether people tend to have different embouchure types when switching instruments or mouthpieces. Regardless, I wonder whether there is something happening when you play larger mouthpieces that you do or don’t do when playing trumpet or horn? Perhaps, when you switch to trombone or euphonium, you play too tense or even too relaxed due to the size difference? You’d need a knowledgeable and trusted person to watch you play, and observe what is happening. Just a thought.

[BrassSection]

Have experienced similar results with trumpet, especially after covering first trumpet part on about a dozen Christmas carols for a brass ensemble after the rehearsal for the main service, then jumping into the song service immediately following the ensemble.

[CalgaryTbone]

There's different kinds of endurance too. I think it was an article from trumpeter Chris Gecker (formally American Brass Quintet) where he talked about doing different routines on his instrument to build for different types of gigs. For an Orchestral player, a Brass Quintet gig can feel really tough, and a Quintet player can struggle with a Bruckner Symphony. Our chops get used to a certain kind of workout.

Jim Scott

[harrisonreed]

There's different kinds of endurance too. I think it was an article from trumpeter Chris Gecker (formally American Brass Quintet) where he talked about doing different routines on his instrument to build for different types of gigs. For an Orchestral player, a Brass Quintet gig can feel really tough, and a Quintet player can struggle with a Bruckner Symphony. Our chops get used to a certain kind of workout.

Jim Scott

I feel this. If I haven't played in a BQ for a while, the set can be brutal.

[Doug Elliott]

"Most muscles are made up of two kinds of muscle fibers that help you move your body:
slow-twitch muscle fibers, which move more slowly but help to keep you moving longer.
fast-twitch muscle fibers, which help you move faster, but for shorter periods."

Endurance for any activity uses slow-twitch (or long-twitch) fibers, and if you don't build in way that strengthens them, you will be lacking in endurance.

There are other factors as well, but that's an important part of it.

[BrassSection]

Additional question: Since I need to be on the ready at all times on trumpet, trombone, euph, or French horn, any advice as to which horn to practice on the most? I have been primarily using trumpet, with success on the weekly basis. Was wondering if a weekly rotation might be beneficial without hurting trumpet? If performing with a brass group using music, I do spend time prior to using the correct instrument for the playing. Oddly, it’s never been the trombone, usually trumpet, euph, tuba, or French horn, in that order.

[Doug Elliott]

Try spending a few minutes on each instrument every day, in order from high to low. Do that every day regardless of what you have to perform on.

And give preference to starting in the upper middle to high range on every instrument.

Try that for a while and see what happens.

[BrassSection]

Appreciate the info! History:
My “formal” music education stopped in 1971 as a high school senior, on the baritone only. Branched into trumpet when my son’s school didn’t have a baritone for him and we bought him a trumpet to start on for the first year, then he switched to baritone the rest of his school days. Everything beyond Breeze Easy book 1 on trumpet has been self taught through the years. French horn days started 3 years after trumpet, as that’s what my daughter chose to play. Picked up a used one for myself at a school auction to help her get started. Again Breeze Easy Book 1. As she progressed she had private lessons from professional horn players and finally a horn professor. Trombone came later in life, bought a used one from a coworker and 100% self taught. Had a 3 day self taught tuba crash course about 30 years ago due to a Christmas brass performance. I was happy to play my euph, had a high school kid playing tuba in the group. Well received so we lined up again to play the next year, tuba player had graduated and didn’t have a horn. My daughters school band didn’t have any tuba players so I was able to borrow one. Got to the first practice and found out tuba player couldn’t read bass clef, he had been using an Eb tuba and only one I could get was BBb. We had a baritone TC part so he eagerly took my horn and I played the tuba. Learned to read the low notes real fast and performance went off without a hitch. Few years ago a friend donated his tuba to me, so I have one available as necessary. I’ve been playing in church bands since the 80s, other then brass groups for special occasions, all playing is improv. My usual “music” is only the chord sheet the guitar and keyboard players use. I feel like a rookie compared to you guys so all input it welcome. I plan to keep learning as long as I’m living!