Valve Question

wayne88ny · Post by **wayne88ny** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:58 pm

I'm planning to add a valve to my tenor trombone. I like the openness of the Axial Flow valve. For various reasons, I'm also considering a Hagmann or one of the Mendlschmidt valves. I have Hagmann valves on my Courtois Bass trombone and find then to be very open. I know the Instrument Innovations Axial flow valve costs $350. I'd like to know how the openness of the Hagmann, Mendlschmidt OpenFlow and Mendlschmidt Radial Flow valves compare to the Axial Flow Valve and the and the cost of each.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:38 pm

They're all quite different. What are you going for? Wide sound and feel? More compact? Weight? Which instrument?

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:56 pm

Nothing else really matches a Thayer… for good and bad. I do kinda love them, but they are a bit much.

Would love to see a bunch of the improved rotors all against each other in similar applications, unfortunately my collection is mostly fail valves (monster, CL, K).

Cheers,
Andy

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:58 pm

Presumably you're tenor is an 88 based on your username?

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:59 pm

It's Meinlschmidt.

Anyway, Hagmanns are considerably more expensive than anything else, because Switzerland etc. Meinlschmidt won't sell direct to consumers, so it's a question for your tech, but their prices aren't crazy. But cost isn't just the valve - unusual wrap tubing (...Hagmann) could become significant depending on what you have in mind.

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:01 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:56 pm fail valves

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:17 pm

The CL valve is a fail?

wayne88ny · Post by **wayne88ny** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:20 pm

As you can see from my recent post, Chuck McAlexander made a Thayer attachment for my Conn 8H. I have an 88HK bell that's set up to use that attachment. I want to get another attachment made so I don't have to switch the attachment when I want to use the K bell. As you probably know, Chuck is retired. I can probably find a tech to copy what Chuck did, but that attachment requires custom bent tubing, and depending on the tech, that could be costly. Interestingly, a Bach 42 with an axial flow valve is the same price as one with a Hagmann valve. I thought I might be able to save some money by using a different valve that wouldn't require custom tubing. I probably will end up getting an attachment with a axial flow valve, but if i could get something that played the same as the axial flow valve and it cost less, I would go that route.

wayne88ny · Post by **wayne88ny** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:24 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:17 pm The CL valve is a fail?

Yes, I don't like the CL valves.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:42 pm

wayne88ny wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:24 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:17 pm The CL valve is a fail?
Yes, I don't like the CL valves.

I didn't much like the valve on my 88HCL until I showed it to master tech John Sandhagen. He made a <5-minute adjustment and now the valve (and entire trombone) are wonderful. I love the short throw and the near-ideal resistance.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:38 pm

What trombone are you playing now? I'm assuming it is a straight trombone? Cost is going to depend on location, the valve you choose, and the implementation you choose.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:33 pm

Yeah the CL2000 is an amazing valve. Like anything, it is just one component of a system. I'd like to try it on something that isn't an 88H.

Was just curious why Andy called his collection all fail valves. Why collect them? Maybe they are just commercial fails. I still wouldn't group the CL valve with the K and monster valve though.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:17 pm

I've built horns with every valve on your list, and then some. If you were to give a more detailed explanation of what you're looking for I'd be happy to provide some insight. If I were to write about each one at length I'll be here til 2024

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:56 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:33 pm Yeah the CL2000 is an amazing valve. Like anything, it is just one component of a system. I'd like to try it on something that isn't an 88H.

Was just curious why Andy called his collection all fail valves. Why collect them? Maybe they are just commercial fails. I still wouldn't group the CL valve with the K and monster valve though.

I know more people playing K valves professionally than CL valves… hence the inclusion. It isn’t bad…. But neither is the K, from a response view. They do some things very well.

But it certainly hasn’t “won” in the market and won’t any time soon. Heck, axials are approaching fail trajectory as other “improved” rotors eat away the market share.

Wankel engines work, too. They’re fun. But they didn’t “win” in the market.

Cheers,
Andy

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:06 pm

I don't know if you can ever say Thayer/AF valves failed given how ubiquitous they were throughout the 90s and 2000s. I wonder the degree to which CL valves never took off due to licensing. You can obviously buy them from CS, but I don't believe, for example, Rath could sell a R4 with a Lindberg advertised as such right? Whereas with other patented valves like the Hagmann's, obviously they have no problem with that exact arrangement

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:23 pm

FWIW the patent is now expired on the the CL valve design. I believe....

Any shop could copy it now if they wanted to. You'd have to call it something else though. The Lumburg valve

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:57 pm

The "K-valve" is only really failed because Bach decided to stop making it. I think they built it in house? But those I know that have the K-valve Bach horns really like them. Can't say the same for the "Monster valve" trombones.

For me... it's all about rotary valves and "improved" rotary valves. Still trying to decide whether I want to get a new Axial flow valve installed on my Bach 42T so I can have a proper gooseneck.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:00 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:23 pm FWIW the patent is now expired on the the CL valve design. I believe....

Any shop could copy it now if they wanted to. You'd have to call it something else though. The Lumburg valve

The Christian valve?

The Bald Swede valve?

The GenTwo Valve? (oops, that's a variant of Linux).

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:17 pm

lol valve os/2

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:40 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:56 pm Wankel engines work, too. They’re fun. But they didn’t “win” in the market.
Cheers,
Andy

Though I love my 88HCL and the excellent-functioning Christian Lindberg valve, I won't die on that hill. I happen to like Conn trombones (especially my late Elkhart 88H). Other trombonists are not such Conn fans. The CL valve is really good, but its market penetration has been drastically limited because it's only available on a few Conn trombones, and Conn is no longer as prominent a brand as they once were. If Conn-Selmer wanted to increase the sales of the valve, they probably could (if allowed by their contract with Christian Lindberg). So its lack of success is (partly) due to its marketing, not its performance limitations.

The Wankel engine (which always appealed to my mechanical engineering mind) had some significant technical problems, which doomed it in today's environment - no matter how much "fun" they were.

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:03 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:23 pm FWIW the patent is now expired on the the CL valve design. I believe....

Any shop could copy it now if they wanted to. You'd have to call it something else though. The Lumburg valve

Well, oddly we see plenty of copies of axials out there. Also even a few of the K valves. Any CL copies that we are aware of? I don’t know of any…

Perhaps another measure as to whether or not it is a fail. I do like the one I have. If any valve other than the Thayer is leaving the house with me, it’s probably that one, with the K a close runner up. The monster only comes out if I want people to laugh. If anybody has another one out there, I think I want to build the double that they show in the patent drawing for it…

Still need to get a Miller and buy back the Hagmann that I sold to rebuild the set. But I think I should probably do something more productive with my time.
Andy

Cmiertschin · Post by **Cmiertschin** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:01 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:03 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:23 pm FWIW the patent is now expired on the the CL valve design. I believe....

Any shop could copy it now if they wanted to. You'd have to call it something else though. The Lumburg valve
Well, oddly we see plenty of copies of axials out there. Also even a few of the K valves. Any CL copies that we are aware of? I don’t know of any…

Perhaps another measure as to whether or not it is a fail. I do like the one I have. If any valve other than the Thayer is leaving the house with me, it’s probably that one, with the K a close runner up. The monster only comes out if I want people to laugh. If anybody has another one out there, I think I want to build the double that they show in the patent drawing for it…

Still need to get a Miller and buy back the Hagmann that I sold to rebuild the set. But I think I should probably do something more productive with my time.
Andy

Isn’t the Yamaha 682B something of a CL copy? I recall them at least looking veerrryyy similar.

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:12 am

Cmiertschin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:01 am
elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:03 pm
Well, oddly we see plenty of copies of axials out there. Also even a few of the K valves. Any CL copies that we are aware of? I don’t know of any…

Perhaps another measure as to whether or not it is a fail. I do like the one I have. If any valve other than the Thayer is leaving the house with me, it’s probably that one, with the K a close runner up. The monster only comes out if I want people to laugh. If anybody has another one out there, I think I want to build the double that they show in the patent drawing for it…

Still need to get a Miller and buy back the Hagmann that I sold to rebuild the set. But I think I should probably do something more productive with my time.
Andy
Isn’t the Yamaha 682B something of a CL copy? I recall them at least looking veerrryyy similar.

No, the CL rotor is pretty unique. It's a "Y" shape internally. See this thread for the "Bousfield" pictures:

viewtopic.php?t=9008

BoomtownRath · Post by **BoomtownRath** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:10 pm

The meinlshmidt radial valve is of similar design.

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:51 pm

BoomtownRath wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:10 pm The meinlshmidt radial valve is of similar design.

Similar to 682B valve, yes. Both three passage rotors. CL valve is a little unique as a 2 passage rotor, but one passage is Y shaped.

Cheers,
Andy

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:02 am

wayne88ny - Please take a minute and checkout the Olsen Valves from Instrument innovations.
I had the rotor valve put on my Bach 42BO and it changed the whole horn for the better.
Plus their customer service is EXCELLENT!!
It`s really worth looking into

jonathanharker · Post by **jonathanharker** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:21 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:03 pm Still need to get a Miller and buy back the Hagmann that I sold to rebuild the set. But I think I should probably do something more productive with my time.
Andy

No no - this sounds like a worthy project

jonathanharker · Post by **jonathanharker** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:32 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:03 pm Still need to get a Miller and buy back the Hagmann that I sold to rebuild the set. But I think I should probably do something more productive with my time.
Andy

In fact, if you could supply photos on a white background of the Monster, CL and K valves that would look like this one, I'd be most appreciative; I'm working on improving Wikipedia articles about brass instrument valves.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:07 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:57 pm The "K-valve" is only really failed because Bach decided to stop making it. I think they built it in house? But those I know that have the K-valve Bach horns really like them. Can't say the same for the "Monster valve" trombones.

Zig Kanstul did some work on the "Monster Valve", which ended up being the prototype for the Kanstul Constant Resistance (CR) valves. If BAC really wanted to do us a service they would make the CR valve available again--they did buy (most or all of?) the Kanstul tooling.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:11 pm

Cmiertschin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:01 am
Isn’t the Yamaha 682B something of a CL copy? I recall them at least looking veerrryyy similar.

No, the 682B valve was a derivative of the Minick valve. The Minick valve also inspired the Meinlschmidt Radial-Flow valve.

jonathanharker · Post by **jonathanharker** » Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:07 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:11 pm
Cmiertschin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:01 am
Isn’t the Yamaha 682B something of a CL copy? I recall them at least looking veerrryyy similar.
No, the 682B valve was a derivative of the Minick valve. The Minick valve also inspired the Meinlschmidt Radial-Flow valve.

In my digging I found a 2002 Usenet alt.music.trombone post from Dan Cloutier who said Yamaha techs were interested in using the Minick valve on his alto, some time shortly before the 682B came out in 1991. Minick apparently dealt directly with Yamaha (obit), although I'm not certain Conn used the valve, unless he was a silent partner inventor of the (completely different) CL valve?

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:22 am

wayne88ny wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:20 pm As you can see from my recent post, Chuck McAlexander made a Thayer attachment for my Conn 8H. I have an 88HK bell that's set up to use that attachment. I want to get another attachment made so I don't have to switch the attachment when I want to use the K bell. As you probably know, Chuck is retired. I can probably find a tech to copy what Chuck did, but that attachment requires custom bent tubing, and depending on the tech, that could be costly. Interestingly, a Bach 42 with an axial flow valve is the same price as one with a Hagmann valve. I thought I might be able to save some money by using a different valve that wouldn't require custom tubing. I probably will end up getting an attachment with a axial flow valve, but if i could get something that played the same as the axial flow valve and it cost less, I would go that route.

Ok it's been awhile I know BUT did you ever resolve this? Inquiring minds.....

wayne88ny · Post by **wayne88ny** » Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 am

Scott Sweeney, owner of Sweeney Brass, did a beautiful job building an axial flow F-Attachment using an Instrument Innovations axial flow valve.

calcbone · Post by **calcbone** » Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:22 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:00 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:23 pm FWIW the patent is now expired on the the CL valve design. I believe....

Any shop could copy it now if they wanted to. You'd have to call it something else though. The Lumburg valve
The Christian valve?
The Bald Swede valve?
The GenTwo Valve? (oops, that's a variant of Linux).

How about the Lumbergh valve? If you could, uh, make sure and practice on Saturday, yeah, that'd be great. Oh, and I'm gonna need you to practice on Sunday, too... Don't forget about those TPS (trombone practice scales?) reports...

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:33 pm

jonathanharker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:07 pm
Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:11 pm

No, the 682B valve was a derivative of the Minick valve. The Minick valve also inspired the Meinlschmidt Radial-Flow valve.
In my digging I found a 2002 Usenet alt.music.trombone post from Dan Cloutier who said Yamaha techs were interested in using the Minick valve on his alto, some time shortly before the 682B came out in 1991. Minick apparently dealt directly with Yamaha (obit), although I'm not certain Conn used the valve, unless he was a silent partner inventor of the (completely different) CL valve?

I just noticed this post. I thought the inventor of the CL2000 design was Bela Tarrodi. I could see why Mrs. Minick would see the CL2000 as her husband's design -- from the exterior it looks identical to the 3-port Minick valve, but the internals are not. Unfortunately, the Minick valve wasn't a design Minick invented in the first place, though.

viewtopic.php?p=232782&hilit=Minick+valve#top

Also so strange that Minick's OTJ obituary predates the cited date he passed away by about two years...

Post by **Matt K** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 6:56 am

The fabulous podcast Trombone Corner has an episode where Christian Lindberg is interviewed and reveals quite ab it about the history of the valve and how it ended up being patented by Conn. If I'm remembering right, it was conditional on him being a Conn artist was them putting the CL rotor on the 88. His father in law invented it with a lot of feedback from Christian and when they demoed it, they put like, a box or something around it with a lock and their artists had to try it with that awkward thing around it, but ultimately they signed off and the 88CL was born!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:00 am

Yes I've heard that one. Bela Tarrodi is his father in law, who also designed the Lindberg mouthpieces. I used to have one of the originals, a 1CL.

Post by **Matt K** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:23 pm

Sorry, I wasn't intending to sound like I was correcting you - I meant to clarify that Bela was related and to let others know its a great episode worth listening to

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:07 pm

Oh no - We're on the same page! It's a good one!

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:57 pm

Must be the same Tarrodi that publishes a lot of Lindbergh’s pieces.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jul 02, 2024 6:32 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:57 pm Must be the same Tarrodi that publishes a lot of Lindbergh’s pieces.

That's his wife who does that. Her name is Tarrodi, too. She is pretty cool -- I asked through their main publisher email for a score to The Nutcracker for piano and trombone and she said that she thought it "only existed in their heads" so she couldn't help me.