Small bore in Berlioz

[Bach5G]

Last night I was going to loan a friend my small bore tenor, a Bach 16M slide/DeBruycker bell, and rather than lug 2 horns to orch, I used it on the 2nd part in Berlioz’s Symph Fan and dropped it off after rehearsal.

SF is scored for alto on first. I was surprised by how
different - indeed, how appropriate - the alto/small tenor combo sounded. It was a brass/woodwind sectional in a good hall so it was good chance to hear what was going on. My sense was that the conductor was quite pleased with the sound of the section.

[Posaunus]

Are you sure that Berlioz actually specified a true alto for 1st trombone?

[LeTromboniste]

Berlioz famously wrote "the first trombone part must not be played on a tenor trombone as is often done. I demand a true alto trombone" on the manuscript of the Fantastique. However he was young at the time, and probably hadn't actually heard alto trombones very often, if at all, as they were rare in French orchestras. It's not known if he ever did get an alto for his performances. We do know that after traveling to Germany and working with German orchestras that used altos and basses, he changed his stance a bit and wrote that he was 'now convinced that the Parisian opera houses practice of using three tenors is actually the best' (paraphrasing, not an exact quote). If course the German instruments were not just differently pitched but also of very different style and construction and sounded extremely different from the trombones he was used to.


He also scored for alto trombone in the Symphonie funèbre et triomphale, but that's originally for (military) wind band, with all parts played by several players, and he indicates a mix of alto and tenor trombones on the first part.

[Macbone1]

The old "matched horns" approach to a trb section never impressed me. I believe in matching the horn to the part and to the musical context. So naturally a small tenor would be a nice tonal bridge between the alto on first and whatever larger trb was used on 3rd.

[Bach5G]

I am reminded that recently I heard a fellow trying out one of the new Laskey Alessi mpcs. I had to look twice to make sure he wasn’t playing a bass trombone. Enormous, very dark sound; surely at the extreme of what a tenor should sound like. SF would certainly sound different if that approach was taken. With 2 tubas and a bass trombone, Berlioz has the bottom end pretty well covered. 4 bassoons too.

[Posaunus]

I am reminded that recently I heard a fellow trying out one of the new Laskey Alessi mpcs. I had to look twice to make sure he wasn’t playing a bass trombone. Enormous, very dark sound; surely at the extreme of what a tenor should sound like. SF would certainly sound different if that approach was taken. With 2 tubas and a bass trombone, Berlioz has the bottom end pretty well covered. 4 bassoons too.

It's unlikely that Berlioz imagined the sound that a such modern large tenor trombone can produce. Remember that Symphonie Fantastique was written in 1830 (3 years after Beethoven's death)! He apparently did imagine that the 1st trombone would have a smaller sound in the upper range.

I think that (for a modern 21st century symphony orchestra), the ideal trombone section is 1 small tenor / 2 large tenor / 3 bass. That's what I've heard, and it sounded fine.

[LeTromboniste]

Remember that a modern alto, tenor and bass sound more similar to each other than any of them sound to an 1820's French trombone.
Try things both in terms of equipment and in terms of reimagining your own mental concept of what whatever repertoire should sound like, and do what sounds best to you, your section, your orchestra and the conductor. What instruments the composer had in mind or at their disposal is really not that important after 200 years.

[Posaunus]

Remember that a modern alto, tenor and bass sound more similar to each other than any of them sound to an 1820's French trombone.
Try things both in terms of equipment and in terms of reimagining your own mental concept of what whatever repertoire should sound like, and do what sounds best to you, your section, your orchestra and the conductor. What instruments the composer had in mind or at their disposal is really not that important after 200 years.

[CalgaryTbone]

Remember that a modern alto, tenor and bass sound more similar to each other than any of them sound to an 1820's French trombone.
Try things both in terms of equipment and in terms of reimagining your own mental concept of what whatever repertoire should sound like, and do what sounds best to you, your section, your orchestra and the conductor. What instruments the composer had in mind or at their disposal is really not that important after 200 years.

I like this too!

Remember that you are playing with a modern orchestra where all of the other instruments have changed as well. It doesn't mean that you can't play smaller instruments if you think that is a better sound for the repertoire, but also consider what will blend with the other brass and the orchestra as a whole. The point is to sound good in the situation that you are actually in rather than trying to reproduce something from another time without buy-in from the rest of the orchestra. Comfort is also worth considering - horns that aren't played very often are often less dependable for pitch/accuracy.

Bottom line, you should play what will make the section sound the best to you and to those around you with an ear towards what you think sounds appropriate for the repertoire. There isn't just one choice.

Jim Scott

[Posaunus]

Bottom line, you should play what will make the section sound the best to you and to those around you with an ear towards what you think sounds appropriate for the repertoire. There isn't just one choice.

Jim Scott

Jim,

I'm curious. When your orchestra plays Symphonie Fantastique, what is the usual trombone section line-up?

[Chatname]

If I remember correctly, Berlioz first scored this masterpiece for alto, tenor and tenor. And the “tuba” parts for ophicleide and serpent, later on replacing the serpent for another ophicleide. Moving towards slightly smaller modern instruments won’t get us anywhere near what those instruments would have sounded like in 1830, but is anyway a very good idea, I think (most importantly using very small tubas. Even the smallest modern tuba will be infinitely much louder than serpent/ophicleide). Changing instruments towards smaller ones does not only change the sound (a little bit, however probably even colleagues won’t notice) but also makes for great fun when playing!
A small bore on second is a very good idea!

[LeTromboniste]

Yes, the question of the tubas is more important to me than the size of the trombones. Ophicleide writing is very different than tuba writing. It really ought to be played on the smallest bass tubas if not on euphonium. Big tubas have a distinctive dense dullness in the upper register that just always sticks out to me in French rep and feels totally out of place. Those parts are for a 9' brass instrument playing in its pedal, low and mid ranges, not a 16 or 18' instrument in its mid and high range. Extremely different colours and big impact on the orchestra's sound.

[Chatname]

By the way, I’ve played the upper part both on tenor and alto. I much prefer it on alto.

[BGuttman]

When we did it our regular tuba couldn't reach the top notes in the part. I was playing 2nd tuba on my small Mirafone F and had to cover the high parts for him. Bet he never expected to see notes like that with a BBb tuba

[Matt K]

I did a tour where symphonie fantastique was played. Since we were traveling, the rep actually worked perfectly to have a downsized section. Tubist only brought an F tuba and I had an alto and a Bach 42. For SF, I passed my 42 down to the bass trombonist and played the principal on alto. It worked quite well despite it being a little out of the ordinary.

[CalgaryTbone]

Bottom line, you should play what will make the section sound the best to you and to those around you with an ear towards what you think sounds appropriate for the repertoire. There isn't just one choice.

Jim Scott

Jim,

I'm curious. When your orchestra plays Symphonie Fantastique, what is the usual trombone section line-up?

2 tenors and a bass - nobody used alto on this piece back when I was a student, so I learned it on tenor All of the big orchestras - Chicago, NY, Philly etc. performed and recorded it that way in those days, so that was the standard. I do try to play "brighter" and with more "front" to the notes than I would play on Mahler, Bruckner, etc. It does blend pretty well with the other brass with that combination, and you can get away with "going for it" a bit since the trombones don't play the whole piece, and a lot of what we have is aggressive in nature and melodic material like the March to the Scaffold, or the tune in the last movement.

[mbarbier]

https://youtu.be/lZzr4xXPeyw

Have y'all seen this really lovely video of it on period instruments? It's really cool and Patrick Wibart is totally incredible.

A friend was subbing as second tuba with North Carolina a few years back for it and John Ilika did it on alto. He and another friend in the wind section really loved the way it worked and extra color it brought, so at least one full time orch in the states has done it that way. Would really love to hear something like that in person!

[Posaunus]

https://youtu.be/lZzr4xXPeyw

Have y'all seen this really lovely video of it on period instruments? It's really cool and Patrick Wibart is totally incredible.

I ... LOVE ... IT !!!

[mbarbier]

https://youtu.be/lZzr4xXPeyw

Have y'all seen this really lovely video of it on period instruments? It's really cool and Patrick Wibart is totally incredible.

I ... LOVE ... IT !!!

Right? I'd love to hear that live! The switching between serpent and opheclide is really interesting.

[LeTromboniste]

Fun fact about the serpent in this clip: he plays it over the shoulder, marching-style, rather than in front between the legs as was done in church and as he probably most often plays. That inverts the right hand fingerings (index finger is on the lowest hole instead of on the highest).

[mbarbier]

Fun fact about the serpent in this clip: he plays it over the shoulder, marching-style, rather than in front between the legs as was done in church and as he probably most often plays. That inverts the right hand fingerings (index finger is on the lowest hole instead of on the highest).

I was wondering if something along those lines was the case- that's really cool. Thank you!

[EdwardSolomon]

I've played Berlioz 3rd trombone parts on small bore tenor, large bore tenor, and bass trombone. Of all of these, my preference is the small bore tenor, which (with the agreement of the rest of the section) eclipses the sound of the rest by a country mile. It may not be the really narrow bore French trombone of the 19th and early 20th centuries, but it still beats the relatively dull sound of the large trombones we habitually use in French repertoire. Given Berlioz' predilection for writing pedal notes in the lowest trombone parts, these should rattle and buzz, which only really happens on the small bore tenor. The large bore tenor and bass trombones are too genteel unless overblown - and Berlioz was an expert orchestrator and knew how to score for trombones. I'd rather go for brightness on the small bore and play Berlioz' dynamics than have to use a larger instrument and have to overblow to get the thing to rasp enough for the conductor.

[Aznguyy]

https://youtu.be/lZzr4xXPeyw

Have y'all seen this really lovely video of it on period instruments? It's really cool and Patrick Wibart is totally incredible.

I really like this! What a different palette of colors! Such a different sound from the brass section.

[CalgaryTbone]

I like the period instrument version as well, but I also like many modern instrument performances. Different strokes. My only point in my earlier post is that I'm not sure that mixing the two approaches works as well as committing to one or the other. Small bores with modern tubas for instance? I like downsizing for some rep., but it's usually to a .525 (unless it's alto for Mozart, Beethoven) or .508 for some Pops rep. Unless the whole orchestra is committed to playing the concert on period instruments, I'm not sure you'll get a good match. If you like the mixed approach blend, then go for it, I guess.

Jim Scott

[LeTromboniste]

I like the period instrument version as well, but I also like many modern instrument performances. Different strokes. My only point in my earlier post is that I'm not sure that mixing the two approaches works as well as committing to one or the other. Small bores with modern tubas for instance? I like downsizing for some rep., but it's usually to a .525 (unless it's alto for Mozart, Beethoven) or .508 for some Pops rep. Unless the whole orchestra is committed to playing the concert on period instruments, I'm not sure you'll get a good match. If you like the mixed approach blend, then go for it, I guess.

Jim Scott

I agree, mixing doesn't really work, especially with full-size orchestra. I can't really imagine it working for Fantastique. I think downsizing is probably a good idea, if the section likes it, but downsizing to smaller modern instruments rather than to historical instruments.

Although you do see Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn symphonies sometimes with natural horns, valve-less trumpets and classical timpani while the rest of the orchestra is modern (but reduced and not going for a huge sound), and that can work. Also playing Mozart masses with baroque trombones in an otherwise modern orchestra is very common here in Switzerland, and that can work well because of the style of writing and the fact that baroque trombones are better at playing with voices. But you need the musicians to either be specialists, or have dedicated the time and effort to really master the historical instruments, otherwise the results can be rather underwhelming.

[CalgaryTbone]

I like the period instrument version as well, but I also like many modern instrument performances. Different strokes. My only point in my earlier post is that I'm not sure that mixing the two approaches works as well as committing to one or the other. Small bores with modern tubas for instance? I like downsizing for some rep., but it's usually to a .525 (unless it's alto for Mozart, Beethoven) or .508 for some Pops rep. Unless the whole orchestra is committed to playing the concert on period instruments, I'm not sure you'll get a good match. If you like the mixed approach blend, then go for it, I guess.

Jim Scott

I agree, mixing doesn't really work, especially with full-size orchestra. I can't really imagine it working for Fantastique. I think downsizing is probably a good idea, if the section likes it, but downsizing to smaller modern instruments rather than to historical instruments.

Although you do see Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn symphonies sometimes with natural horns, valve-less trumpets and classical timpani while the rest of the orchestra is modern (but reduced and not going for a huge sound), and that can work. Also playing Mozart masses with baroque trombones in an otherwise modern orchestra is very common here in Switzerland, and that can work well because of the style of writing and the fact that baroque trombones are better at playing with voices. But you need the musicians to either be specialists, or have dedicated the time and effort to really master the historical instruments, otherwise the results can be rather underwhelming.

I couldn't agree more! The goal is always to try to present the music in a way that respects it's origins and also respects the skills of the players and their colleagues and the forces being used.

[Bach5G]

It’s tough to get a decent serpent player.

[Posaunus]

It’s tough to get a decent serpent player.

Yeah, even the Bible had an issue with serpents!

[Davetall]

The last time I performed Fantastique we used alto and two .500 bore tenors. The sound of the 2nd and 3rd trombone was very different than when we have used .525 and .547 for second and third. If it comes around again, I want to use the .500s again. The sound was exciting and I don’t think we were out of place compared to the rest of the orchestra.

A .485 or .450 instrument would be closer to what Berlioz heard but…

I’m performing Berlioz’ Romeo and Juliet this week and the tone color and exuberance the conductor wants in the introduction would be more easily produced on a smaller instrument but it’s too late to change now.

[Bach5G]

We might perform SF with Conn alto, 2B, and bass. I might play my .525 on 2nd though.

[brassmedic]

It’s tough to get a decent serpent player.

You know the famous Handel quote, right? "Zis is not ze same serpent zat seduced Eve."

[baileyman]

The last time I performed Fantastique we used alto and two .500 bore tenors. ...

Now that sound thrilling!

[EdwardSolomon]

The last time I did Berlioz, it was Le carnaval romain and we used a section of 2 medium bore (0.500") tenors with me on the 3rd part playing on a dual bore 0.500"/0.525" tenor. Judge for yourself whether it works.

[BGuttman]

I liked the sound. Given the bombast level of this piece there were very few places the scaled down section actually had a chance to make a difference. If you had a smaller overall headcount in the orchestra it might have made more of an effect.

[baileyman]

What pieces on the 500s?

[Dennis]

The last time I did Berlioz, it was Le carnaval romain and we used a section of 2 medium bore (0.500") tenors with me on the 3rd part playing on a dual bore 0.500"/0.525" tenor. Judge for yourself whether it works.

It works.

The only time I played SF we played a few rehearsals with 88H, Edwards T350, and I was using my Bach 50. It didn't work for us. After discussing it, we switched to a 6H, King 3B, and I brought my Bach 36. It was much more fun with the smaller horns. The tubas had already downsized to a Besson compensating euph and an F. The MD was happier too. He told us after the first rehearsal that whatever we had changed, keep it.

[Davetall]

I don’t know what mouthpiece the second player used. I used a Doug Elliott LB115/E/3.

[sf105]

Absolutely agree with Ed on using a small tenor on 3rd. I've done the Fantastique and the Grande Messe and in both cases the pedals come out as intended. Strong enough to get the edgy colour that was clearly intended but without laying waste to the back violas.

I saw Elliot-Gardiner's crew do this with ophiecleides and the low brass cut through plenty without overwhelming.