"Snake tounge" - description and demo.

[imsevimse]

I decided to put this here. I once put it on the old forum 20 years ago when the forum was a mailgroup but it wasn't recieved very well and I was acctually laught at, so I've been quiet about it since. I don't think anyone took me for serious . I give it another try and put it here again, because it could help someone and I want it documented somewere and I'm not getting younger. If you find it too odd then you can just ignore.

There are many ways to do fast articulations. Double-tounging, tripple- and of course doo-dle tounging. 30 years ago I struggled to learn the doodle, but had hard time with that, so I started to experiment to see if I could possibly find another way to move the tounge to speed up my slow tounging. I did find something that helped. Since then I've learned the "doo-dle" and after that I more or less abandoned what I'm going to describe next. It wasn't that bad though so I think it deserves to be discussed at least.

My own technique that I came up with for fast legato tounging is what a friend described as "snake tongue" (move tounge side to side) Currently I believe I'm the only one who can do it, or I do not know of anyone but me who can do it. Most just shrug their shoulders or shook their heads, but it's fine with me. I don't care if people think this is weird because I know it works, and I have now been using this for many years and noone has ever said it sounds bad when I do it.

For long I used this tounging for ALL fast legatos, both for fast sixteenths runs and fast triplet runs, now I only use it certain conditions because I find the "dood-dle" better, although they do sound little different so could be a variation in solos so I use it there sometimes. I still use "snake tounge" articulation for trills and ornaments, especially for halfstep-trills where I have to tounge fast and also move the slide.
I'm very interested to hear if anyone plays like this or have read about the technique in a book somewere. I guess it is kind of hard, but not for me since I could do it with a rather good result right away. I guess it's my superpower. Could be I've invented this although I find that very hard to believe. Sure there must have been others who tried and discovered they could do this. Anyhow it is not widespread because then I'm sure I would know about it, but still it could be one of the secrets we never know of. Many tromboneplayers over the years were self taught.

Feel free to try this, see if you can make it work think of it as a party trick

If you want to contact me in private about this and discuss you can mail me at: [email protected]

Excerpt of how this sounds can be found in two posts further down in the thread:
Here:viewtopic.php?p=215194#p215194
and here: viewtopic.php?p=215250#p215250
and more details will be in the thread on how to do this if there are questions. I'll try to answer them best I can.

/Tom

[ithinknot]

Hissssssssss


If you do this with your mouth open in the mirror, is it really a pure side-to-side motion, or is there a front-to-back or vertical component too?

Were you/are you tonguing with the tip of your tongue between your lips, in contact with one lip or otherwise controlling/contributing to the aperture formation?

I'm just wondering if it's something closer to the doodle motion, but moved to a different position and/or interacting with the lips... and whether you swallow your prey whole.

[imsevimse]

Hissssssssss


If you do this with your mouth open in the mirror, is it really a pure side-to-side motion, or is there a front-to-back or vertical component too?

Were you/are you tonguing with the tip of your tongue between your lips, in contact with one lip or otherwise controlling/contributing to the aperture formation?

I'm just wondering if it's something closer to the doodle motion, but moved to a different position and/or interacting with the lips... and whether you swallow your prey whole.

The tounge is behind the teeth when I do this, it does not come in contact with my lips. It moves from side to side just behind the small opening between my teeth that is behind the aparture. No front-back or up-down motion. I can not really do this with my mouth fully open, because I haven't that much space between my teeth when I play and it is just the "pointed" tip of my tounge that do each "soft attack". The attacks are created as the tip passes the hole behind the apparture. It feels like a valve. The air passes on either left side or right side of the tip.

/Tom

[officermayo]

I'm more interested in that head shrugging technique you mentioned.

[AndrewMeronek]

I have a friend from college who played around with multiple-tonguing and had success with what you describe as "snake tongue". It didn't work for me. But it definitely is a thing for some people.

[imsevimse]

I'm more interested in that head shrugging technique you mentioned.

lol. Since English isn't my primary language I can never be sure if I'm making myself clear. The shrugging of the head was a technique that did not help anyone getting better at anything exept it did help the shrugging, but as a playing technique for fast tounge it was worse than what I did [Sorry I meant to write "shook their heads". The shrugging applies to shoulders, sometimes English is hard. I've changed this now in my original post]

/Tom

[Trombonic]

I use my own "propeller tongue" ...no, just kidding...very interesting!

[baileyman]

I've tried one i call "thither tongue" that seems to have promise. It passes the tip of the tongue back and forth over the bump just behind and above the upper teeth. I don't use it, though.

Your snake tongue is a real puzzle. i cannot find a motion that makes an articulation, a break in the air. Perhaps the tongue seals between the teeth on one side, then moves to seal the other side, and back and forth?

[imsevimse]

...Perhaps the tongue seals between the teeth on one side, then moves to seal the other side, and back and forth?

Yes, that's close to what I describe, but the seal with the tounge is done with just the tip as it passes from left to right behind the small opening behind the teeth. It gives a very soft and quick attack, it divides the airstream for a short moment, it works like a valve. I don't know if it makes it more clear but the shape of the tounge is "pointed" while this is done, and there is no up-down or front-back movement in any part of the tounge only side-to-side movement of the tip, and it stays just behind the opening, first on left side to let air pass on the right and then vice verca. I haven't met anyone who can do it yet, but I could do it right away, so, I guess SOME can find it and use it rather fast. After I found it I worked at it every day to have full control. It took some time (maybe a year) as everything else you need to fine tune, but to me the articulation worked right away good enough so I could use it, or else I wouldn't have believed in it, and I wouldn't have spent all that time to fine tune the attack and discover how to do better and more clean and even attacks. For me this attack compares to the "doo-dle" when comes to speed.

/Tom

[LeTromboniste]

Interesting, I will try that see how it sounds. Just doing it without the horn, though, my first impression is its very hard to do without either the jaw moving, or clenching the jaw to prevent it for moving, either of which I'd want to avoid.

[imsevimse]

Interesting, I will try that see how it sounds. Just doing it without the horn, though, my first impression is its very hard to do without either the jaw moving, or clenching the jaw to prevent it for moving, either of which I'd want to avoid.

What I had to work at was to make it even and controllable when I did it faster to be able to switch between sixteenths and triplets for example, and I also had to work at the opening between my teeth that was a bit small in the beginning. It got easier after I found the right distance between teeth so I could tounge AND have an open sound at the same time, that's also when I started to use it in public and told my friends about it. I remember first time 30 years ago when I did my warmup and played some fast runs using this technique and the leader of the big band just looked at me and after I finished said "What are you doing? It sounds as if you are playing valves". At that time it was also what I thought, but I continued to work at it to make it more smooth. It can sound a bit like a valve, but with practice I've found ways to make it more smooth too.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I guess what's missing here is a demo of the "snake tounge". What does it sound like? I thought I should record something but then I remember I already have an ecerpt recorded and it's here already. Someone also a few days ago resurected the actual old thread with that recording so it was easy to find, it's a thread about a review of the Holton TR150. There I did post an excerpt since I have such a horn and it was at a time when I used the snake tounge exclusively for legato and recorded myself as a way to get feedback on my playing.

I was trying to get the "snake tounge" articulation work not only for fast playing but also for any smooth playing, for me as a way to play legato better because it has always been difficult for me to make smooth and precise legatos, especially in the lower register like in the staff. This is the best I could do at the time. I wouldn't do it like that today because I have worked at my "la-la-la" articulation instead to make a more smooth and better legato, but for this thread it is the perfect place as the probably best example of what the articulation sounds like.

Here it is played almost exclusively (July 2017). I used it pretty much everywhere except to start each phrase after breahts and also where I did a few natural slurs in the end where the melody gets a little higher. You can hear the trills (half-tone trills) where it works great, first in the beginning and then in the end. If I would record that excerpt again I would still use my "snake tounge" for those situations. Here the snake tounge sound a bit like I have valves

Rachmaninov Vocalise:


Of course any student should first learn how to single tounge, double tounge and tripple tounge. Any student should also first listen to the advice that comes from ones teacher. If you haven't got a teacher yet then get one. When you are advanced then you can try and do something differently, like this. I don't think my instrument is fully investigated. There are still many things I can experiment with and so many things yet to learn.

Please post feedback and ask any questions. Would like to hear how you are doing, if you give this a try. Can you do it? Maybe you do better with this than me? Maybe it can help someone?

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I found another recording while I was practicing this. This recording is done a year later (July 2018) after I had worked more to smoothen the snake tounge. It wasn't for speed this time either. Here I play a Swedish folksong, first time without any tounge and therefore you hear the smears and you also hear the difference compared to when I play natural slurs. I tried to do this very disciplined so I didn't mind the smears first time. The second time I added a little snake tounge. More pointed this time and more gentle compared to the Rachmaninoff, I also added a little vibrato. Compared to the first recording of Rachmaninoff you can hear I've managed to smooth it a bit. The goal was to make the natural slurs and the snake tounge legato articulation sound the same. I think the second time I only used snake tounge where I could not play a natural slur.

Here is a link to my soundclode page and the excerpt I talk about:
https://on.soundcloud.com/V4pN6

Comments welcomed

/Tom