Tonguing Issues

[BigFamilyBone]

Hi Everyone! New here and just picking back up the trombone after 28 years of not playing. Played from 7th grade through high school. One thing I noticed is that I rarely ever used any tonguing at all when I played before. I would just stop blowing between notes. Picking it back up now, I want to make sure I'm using proper technique foir tonguing and articulation. Any favorite resources yall recommend? Doing plenty of searching and watching Youtube but figured if yall know of any that are particularly on point to help me fix a issue from long ago that would be awesome. I tried some recommended 'syllables' I saw like Ta for single tonguing but definitely feels weird to do and sounds strange. Hopefully with practice I can knock the dust off and correct some things that I used to do completely wrong!

[Doug Elliott]

Practice saying da-da-da-da-daaaaa (off the horn)
Then just blow air and do the same (off the horn)
Then try to do exactly the same thing on the horn

That will be a good start.

[BigFamilyBone]

Thank you!

[baileyman]

I was surprised recently to find mouthpiece playing helped some tonguing. Playing a passage wasn't quite working right on the horn. Playing it on the mouthpiece seemed to force a somewhat different feel in order to get it to work right. That feel then translated directly to a good result on the horn. Like I say, i was surprised to find this out.

[AndrewMeronek]

Articulation is one of the absolute toughest and most important things on trombone to really master. Don't worry if you have trouble - as long as you keep working at it and practice smartly! I believe that Andy Martin, one of the best studio trombonists in the world, perhaps of all-time, says he practices articulation every day.

[DrTbone43]

Started on baritone horn in 5th grade. My teacher never used the concept of tonguing in my lessons. Instead, I used my lips to create the technique of tonguing. This worked until my older mentors suggested the use of the tongue for articulation purposes. So from my high school years through college and way beyond, I hear people still talk about where to place the tongue behind teeth. I know every mouth is different but is there an approximation where the tongue should hit the teeth?
I'm 80 and play in several concert and jazz bands. But still trying to learn to play my horn correctly.

[DrTbone43]

Also, I play too many blanks. No tone just a puff. I also am getting worse at hitting a note solidly. I split a note or crack it too much. And yes, I practice daily primarily from warm up exercises from ITF leaders and tunes from fake books.

[AndrewMeronek]

I don't think there is just one articulation, I think there is a vocabulary of articulations, similar to speaking. I always encourage students to try every syllable they can think of: t, d, l, s, z, th, sh, syllables that don't technically exist in English - give 'em all a go and see how they sound coming out of the bell. Yes, placement of the tongue in the mouth is pretty important, but for me and I think for many people, relating tonguing on the trombone to spoken syllables is probably more useful than strictly thinking about physical placement. After all, I think that most people don't really know their tongue placements when they talk; but they can still reliably reproduce these syllables when speaking.

Also, I play too many blanks. No tone just a puff. I also am getting worse at hitting a note solidly. I split a note or crack it too much. And yes, I practice daily primarily from warm up exercises from ITF leaders and tunes from fake books.

Playing blanks may be a different embouchure issue than the tongue placement.

[Doug Elliott]

The "blanks" issue may be related to the compensation you've developed for not tonguing.

Try singing, on a middle Bb or higher,
Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee

That puts your tongue in a great position, and it's exactly how you should articulate. Duplicate that on the horn.

[baileyman]

...
Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee
...

What a great syllable to think about. It naturally puts the articulation on the release.

[imsevimse]

The "blanks" issue may be related to the compensation you've developed for not tonguing.

Try singing, on a middle Bb or higher,
Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee

That puts your tongue in a great position, and it's exactly how you should articulate. Duplicate that on the horn.

That's the best and simplest explanation of a good start for attack and tounge placement I've ever read here. It puts the tounge exact where it needs to be and also shapes the tounge (for me) right. When I do this I can then play either with the tip behind the upper teeth or behind the bottom teeth. The valve of the tounge and the back of it is exactly as in "Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee".

Note: I guess you already noticed that when you play you can not play while you say the letter "N". It's there only to give the correct position AND shape for the tounge where to start.

Great post!

/Tom

[tbdana]

Also, I play too many blanks. No tone just a puff. I also am getting worse at hitting a note solidly. I split a note or crack it too much. And yes, I practice daily primarily from warm up exercises from ITF leaders and tunes from fake books.

There can be lots of reasons for blanks, but one of the more common ones is air stream in relation to articulation. Might give this a try:

As you alluded to, we are taught to articulate using "Tah" (or "Dah" as Doug suggests), with the t being the articulation and the ah being the air. But the most important part of articulation is not the tongue, it's the air stream. So make sure the air stream is your priority. Rather than approaching it with "Tah," think of it as "tAH," where the tongue gets less emphasis than the air stream.

This is a concept I've heard from several people, going back as far as Remington and as recently as Alex Iles, and I've always thought that was a great approach. I like to practice with breath articulations and then add just enough tongue to make it sound right. That works for me.

Of course, everyone gets blanks now and then for a variety of reasons. So, if this idea doesn't reduce the frequency of your blanks, then it's not your problem and you'll have to look elsewhere. Just one thought.

[baileyman]

... When I do this I can then play either with the tip behind the upper teeth or behind the bottom teeth. The valve of the tounge and the back of it is exactly as in "Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee".
...
/Tom

Yes, it's interesting that while the "nee" gets directly to the tongue position I prefer and the coordination of tone with the release of the tongue, I also use a different shape than one that would make a spoken "n". For me the tongue flaps to the roof broadly across the entire area, and then lifts off simultaneously from the entire area. I've never seen pedagogy advocating anything like it. But the release makes a clean and gentle start to the note and the cavity between the released tongue the the roof of the mouth tunes high notes really well. This means that this flappy tongue style actually helps to maintain high pitch instead of interfering with it.

And I realize Doug's "nee" pretty accurately describes my doodle, which I may have to start calling "needle tongue".

[timothy42b]

... When I do this I can then play either with the tip behind the upper teeth or behind the bottom teeth. The valve of the tounge and the back of it is exactly as in "Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee".
...
/Tom

Yes, it's interesting that while the "nee" gets directly to the tongue position I prefer and the coordination of tone with the release of the tongue, I also use a different shape than one that would make a spoken "n". For me the tongue flaps to the roof broadly across the entire area, and then lifts off simultaneously from the entire area. I've never seen pedagogy advocating anything like it. But the release makes a clean and gentle start to the note and the cavity between the released tongue the the roof of the mouth tunes high notes really well. This means that this flappy tongue style actually helps to maintain high pitch instead of interfering with it.

And I realize Doug's "nee" pretty accurately describes my doodle, which I may have to start calling "needle tongue".

So you use something like the nee plus a dorsal (Clarke or KTM) tongue? I don't think I've heard that one suggested.

[Doug Elliott]

I'd like to know too, but I suspect it's something I do occasionally, which is flipping the tip of the tongue backwards on the bump for the second syllable. It's not the same as doodle, because in doodle the tip stays in contact for the second syllable and air passes underneath the tongue, as I understand it.
Neither is related to dorsal tonguing.

[ithinknot]

I took baileyman's "needle" description to be what I thought was a "standard" doodle with high range vowel, along with the usual second syllable, but with a somewhat larger/flatter tongue contact area for the first syllable (i.e. a less explosive first articulation that's not quite so pronounced a contrast with the -dle, and which goes on to require slightly less angular motion between the two syllables).

I'd like to know too, but I suspect it's something I do occasionally, which is flipping the tip of the tongue backwards on the bump for the second syllable. It's not the same as doodle, because in doodle the tip stays in contact for the second syllable and air passes underneath the tongue, as I understand it.

I get the differenciation with doodle, but I can't quite wrap my face around what this bit means in practice/in approximate phonics... and if I experiment any further Dr Pavlov might send me to a farm upstate

(I thought KTM tonguing involved licking an Austrian motorcycle, so I'm learning all sorts of things today)

[Doug Elliott]

For the tongue motion I'm talking about, repeat the word "daughter"

Daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter

[ithinknot]

daughter

Gotcha - thanks

Doesn't seem faster than "pure" single, but definitely easier to keep relaxed

[AndrewMeronek]

For the tongue motion I'm talking about, repeat the word "daughter"

Daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter daughter

Wow, for me this isn't easier at all.

[Doug Elliott]

I do it just occasionally as a substitute for doodle, which I can't do at all. Narrow lower jaw structure doesn't allow doodle. Normally I do a legato double and triple.
I don't think I ever do it for running notes, but I find it useful just as a single swing - daugh-ter da or a triplet daugh-ter-da da.

Or something like the Song For My Father turns that somebody asked about recently.

[imsevimse]

I do it just occasionally as a substitute for doodle, which I can't do at all. Narrow lower jaw structure doesn't allow doodle. Normally I do a legato double and triple.
I don't think I ever do it for running notes, but I find it useful just as a single swing - daugh-ter da or a triplet daugh-ter-da da.

Or something like the Song For My Father turns that somebody asked about recently.

"Doughter" is very close to what I use for fast single tounge. I had troubles to repeat "ta-ta-ta" or "da-da-da" when it is fast. It is easier for me to alternate like "da-ra-da-ra-da-ra". It's the same movement as in "doughter". To practice this also solved my "doo-dle" because I can slid in to that tounging easy from "da-ra". I think I have at least 16 different toung-attacks or sets of tounged articulations that I think of as different techniques and I use. I guess I also vary them slightly according to what I have to do different in different registers, but this is how I think of them.

Single tounging
1. Ta Ta Ta (tounge position as in "nee nee" with broad tip behind upper teeth)
2. Da Da Da (tounge position as in "nee nee" with broad tip slightly curved behind bottom teeth)
3. La La La (legato, gentle touch with pointed tip behind upper teeth. The airstream is never interrupted. Passes during "l" on both sides of tounge and during '"a" over the tounge)
4. Da Ra Da Ra or Ta Ra Ta Ra (tounge moves as in "doughter", gives faster single tounge. Both "Da" and "Ta" as described earlier. The "Ra" with broad tip in roof)

Multiple tounging
5. Ta-ka ta-ka (double - "Ta" as described earlier, the "ka" is dorsal with the back of the tounge)
6. Da-ga da-ga (double. "Da" as described earlier, the "ga" is dorsal with the back of the tounge but not as far back as the "ka" in "Ta-ka")
7. Da-dl Da-dl (double doodle - "Da" as described earlier and "dl" with tip of tounge behind upper teeth. Air passes first over the tounge and then during the "dl" it passes under on both sides of the tip of the tounge)
8. Ta-ta-ka Ta-ta-ka (tripple - "Ta" and " ka" as described earlier)
9. Da-da-ga Da-da-ga (tripple "Da" and " ga" as described earlier)
10 and 11. Ta-ka-ta Ka-ta-ka or Da-ga-da Ga-da-ga (double used as tripple - "Ta", "ka" and "Da","ga" as described earlier)
12. Ta-ka-ta Ta-ka-ta (tripple - "Ta" and "ka" as described earlier)
13. Da-ga-da Da-ga-da (tripple -"Da" and "ga" as described earlier)
14 Da-dl-a Da-dl-a (tripple doodle - "Da-dl" as described earlier and "la" same as in 3)

Side to side tounging ("snake tounge")
15. Loo-loo-loo-loo ("L" here isn't really a syllable in speach. Fully described here: viewtopic.php?t=32085)

[Edit: 2023-07-25]
Just want to uppdate with one more articulation that I forgot to mention, since I've listed everything else I ever known and use. This is my "no tounge articuation" and "curled tip of tounge up in roof articulation" It's done just with a slight change in the air stream, It's like a small dip in the stream between notes. I use it for my smoothest legato. The result is as close to a glissando as it gets, that's what I want, but not a glissando. Sometimes I help with a very gentle tuch of a curled tip of the tounge up in roof of the mouth, a strike so soft it can not be noticed,. It helps for exemplet in leaps, both smaller and larger leaps and I also use it sometimes when legato is a natural slur just for safety The smoothest is a mix of those two
16. hoOO-hoOO-hoOO-lhoOO-hoO (It is a very small dip in the airflow, thus the "ho". The "lho" is used occationally where help is needed. This combo of articulation for legato is something I've just started to discover and work at. I would love to be able to play as smooth as a string player does with his bow. I'm experimenten with this abd see if I will get closer to tgat eventually)

/Tom

[brassmedic]

2. Da Da Da (tounge position as in "nee nee" with tip behind bottom teeth)

I'm curious as to how this works. When I say "da", my tongue strikes the roof of my mouth around the rear of the hard palate. Placing my tongue behind my bottom teeth does not interrupt the air flow at all; air continues to flow over my tongue and out of my mouth.

[Doug Elliott]

Maybe he's talking about dorsal tonguing where the tip stays down and articulation is done a little back from the tip.
.

[ithinknot]

Yeah, that one confused me for a minute too, but I think it's referring to an upper contact point a bit like the ñ/nyuh of El Niño, which you can do with the tip down.

[brassmedic]

Maybe he's talking about dorsal tonguing where the tip stays down and articulation is done a little back from the tip.
.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

[Olofson]

Tom is Swedish. Da is not pronounced the same way as in English. It is dorsal tounged.

[brassmedic]

Tom is Swedish. Da is not pronounced the same way as in English. It is dorsal tounged.

Fascinating. I think we would call that "ga ga ga" and would only be used as the second syllable on double tounging.

[brassmedic]

I might start a thread about tongue position, because referring to syllables doesn't work in different languages, or maybe not even in different accents.

[imsevimse]

Tom is Swedish. Da is not pronounced the same way as in English. It is dorsal tounged.

Fascinating. I think we would call that "ga ga ga" and would only be used as the second syllable on double tounging.

Yes, it is a bit confusing to translate these things so we can understand since we pronance very different in different languages. Da is dorsal tounged but not the same as the second syllable in the double tounge for me. My contact point for Ga is done with back of the tounge in mouth , more close to the throat. and the (my) dorsal Da feels like it is done with middle of the tounge just as if you say "nee". To play "ga" repeatadly or "ka" which also is a second syllable in the double acctually works but it is not something I use other than for practice.

/Tom

[timothy42b]

I might start a thread about tongue position, because referring to syllables doesn't work in different languages, or maybe not even in different accents.

I have been thinking of doing the same thing, but wanted to line up some links to resources.

There is a mouth pitch Doug talks about and that I have been getting better at understanding and managing. And then there is a vowel shape that modifies the formants that can apply to any pitch. See also that video burgerbob posted. People have talked about tah-eeh forever, but until recently I didn't realize there is also a pitch matching in the mouth resonance.

I would like to hear how people think these may interact. I'll share some links shortly.

[baileyman]

Yes, it's interesting that while the "nee" gets directly to the tongue position I prefer and the coordination of tone with the release of the tongue, I also use a different shape than one that would make a spoken "n". For me the tongue flaps to the roof broadly across the entire area, and then lifts off simultaneously from the entire area. I've never seen pedagogy advocating anything like it. But the release makes a clean and gentle start to the note and the cavity between the released tongue the the roof of the mouth tunes high notes really well. This means that this flappy tongue style actually helps to maintain high pitch instead of interfering with it.

And I realize Doug's "nee" pretty accurately describes my doodle, which I may have to start calling "needle tongue".

So you use something like the nee plus a dorsal (Clarke or KTM) tongue? I don't think I've heard that one suggested.

I'm not sure I know how to describe it better. But I'll try. Try making a sloppy "tha". Instead of putting the point to the teeth for a precise "tha", spread the tongue out flat and make the same thing. Now, "tha" articulates on the blow. Try the articulation on the release as in Doug's "nee". I think that's what I'm doing.

Doug's daughter sounds like my dither.

Doug, try moving the entire doodle way forward. The further back it goes the klunkier. And my jaws are quite narrow together with a fat short tongue. But it works.