Bach LT16M

[TromboneMusic]

I would like to get some opinions on the Bach model LT16M trombone. Anyone with experience playing this model? Thanks in advance.

[hyperbolica]

There was this guy named Bill Watrous seemed to like it.

They're nice horns. I had one and liked it well enough. Compared to other horns in that size, the Bach is a bit darker and more "classical" sounding if that means anything at all. The other horn I thought it compared most to was the Yamaha 891z, but they aren't that similar. Courtois 402 maybe a little bit. Not sure what aspect of it you're interested in. It's a total pro horn, it would be great for any student or pro. Maybe a little quirky, but you could say that about a lot of instruments.

I sold mine to a local tbone college professor who had it refinished and it's his primary small bore now. He looks at me like I was stupid to sell it every time I see him.

Each horn has its own personality. If you like the Bach vibe, you might like a 16m. Watrous was well known for his high range, but it probably wasn't because of the instrument. He also usually played way up on the mic, so that dark smoky sound got picked up pretty well.

We can type all day, but it won't mean nearly as much as just trying one out. Buy a used one if you can't try it first.

[tbonesullivan]

YMMV. Get some face time. It is one of the Jazz horns that numerous people were using for decades, same with the Bach 12, King 2B, King 3B, and various previous iterations from Bach and many others.

The LT16M is, on paper, closest to a 3B, and has an open neckpipe. To find if it's going to work for you, you really will need to go try one.

What other horns are you looking at? There are a SHEDLOAD of great used horns about that size on the market.

[Burgerbob]

They can be great horns, but are generally more quirky than the contemporary offerings like the 3B and much more so than the modern horns. The bell is a little farther towards the player than the average trombone as well- this can throw people off.

The tradeoff is a very interesting sound, lots of color and smoke, much more interesting than most small trombones. Is that tradeoff worth it? Up to you. I own an LT16M, a really great one, but it doesn't really get used compared to my 3B/F because I need the F attachment and general ease of use at work.

[Digidog]

I have one since long, and it's a horn with many good traits, but some glaring quirks that can deter anyone from liking them and playing them.

The most prominent quirk I've found on those horns, is that they can be tricky with intonation for someone not used to how they play. It's easy to push the horn in the wrong way, with too much air and embouchure pressure combined with too heavy attack throughout its register, which will make the horn play off pitch and off center in the tonal quality. All LT16M's I've tried have reacted this way to me, and it always takes me some time to get used to it.

The other quirk, that I haven't found a way around, is that I can't make - at least my horn - to sound good in the low register. From about Ab down to E (7th) it flips the airflow when pushed ever so slightly, making me playing low section pedals very delicate and not with the hint of redline blat you'd want.

The rewards are, on the other hand, well worth the break-in needed. No other horn I have can play as sweetly in ballads, soft dynamics and as lead in softer big band tunes. It can put out loud volumes and shout, too, but I can only achieve that after a break-in practising period, but then it has a character that is sonorous and throaty, which I find to be authoritative and persuasive; convincing.

It was my daily horn for a couple of years, until I realised it only suited the margins of my regular playing and I switched back to a Yamaha 697 (no z) for convenience and ease of mind when called in for sensitive gigs (like emergency substitute in pits, or shows) but I will keep it just for its somewhat unique traits and its special sound.

All in all, I'd say that this horn is an acquired taste that needs extensive, diligent practise (or playing) to come to its best.

[dukesboneman]

I’ve had 2 16m’s (just sold one) . Great horns however, they come equipped with the crappiest leadpipe of any horn I’ve ever played. I put Kanstul H8 leadpipes in both . It made the entire horn play so much better, better focus, better slotting and better range

[Fidbone]

I’ve had 2 16m’s (just sold one) . Great horns however, they come equipped with the crappiest leadpipe of any horn I’ve ever played. I put Kanstul H8 leadpipes in both . It made the entire horn play so much better, better focus, better slotting and better range

Where can I get one?

[Burgerbob]

I’ve had 2 16m’s (just sold one) . Great horns however, they come equipped with the crappiest leadpipe of any horn I’ve ever played. I put Kanstul H8 leadpipes in both . It made the entire horn play so much better, better focus, better slotting and better range

Where can I get one?

Let me know when you find out... I'm looking for one too!

[harrisonreed]

The one with the square slide crook? It's very difficult to play for me. YMMV

[CarlVicVogel]

Here's are questions for Burger Bob:

I have a Bach LT16M. Bach says it has an "open gooseneck", but what is that? Please explain.

On my tuning slide, both ends are the "male" type that slide into the "female" open end. somewhere I read that Bill Waltrous changed his to be similar to the King 3B design (tuning slide as 1 male and 1 female). Do people do this?

Thanks

CarlVicVogel

[hornbuilder]

An open gooseneck is larger in overall dimension than the standard part. Still the same length, but larger diameter, so the "blow" is more "open".

Changing the tuning slide configuration can also "open the blow" of an instrument. On Bach's, the standard construction as you describe, creates a few places on the horn where the sound path expands/constricts, and then expands again very suddenly, in quick succession. This is perceived by some to create a constriction, or choke point on the horn.

[tbonesullivan]

Here's are questions for Burger Bob:

I have a Bach LT16M. Bach says it has an "open gooseneck", but what is that? Please explain.

On my tuning slide, both ends are the "male" type that slide into the "female" open end. somewhere I read that Bill Waltrous changed his to be similar to the King 3B design (tuning slide as 1 male and 1 female). Do people do this?

Thanks

CarlVicVogel

From the pictures I can find of Watrous's tuning slide, it does not appear to have been "reversed". Some feel that the reverse tuning slide results in a smoother expansion with less "steps" as the bore expands towards the bell flare.

The "gooseneck" is the portion of the bell section between the slide receiver and the tuning slide, and is also a tapered tube. The "M" gooseneck has a wider bore than the standard one, so it is freer blowing. I'm not sure where the narrowest part of the gooseneck is.

[hornbuilder]

The narrowest part of the gooseneck "should" be at the very front of the part, where it joins to the handslide receiver. It expands from there.

[ithinknot]

I have a Bach LT16M. Bach says it has an "open gooseneck", but what is that? Please explain.

The neckpipe taper starts larger than the part used on other Elkhart small Bachs (6/8/12/16... all of which share the same bell section, just with different slides and bell markings). Both neckpipes end up at the same large diameter - the "open" pipe simply begins larger and then expands less.

Until some point in the early-mid 80s, LT16Ms had the smaller neckpipe shared with the other models. The bell sections were the same as the dual bore 16, stamped 16, and only the slide was stamped 16M. After they changed to the "open" neckpipe, the bells were stamped 16M. (Bach being Bach, I'm sure there were exceptions along the way, but this is generally what happened.)

On my tuning slide, both ends are the "male" type that slide into the "female" open end. somewhere I read that Bill Waltrous changed his to be similar to the King 3B design (tuning slide as 1 male and 1 female). Do people do this?

He didn't. There are countless photos of him and his horn, and it's the usual Bach arrangement. I'm sure others have done it.

[Mv2541]

They can be great horns, but are generally more quirky than the contemporary offerings…
The tradeoff is a very interesting sound, lots of color and smoke, much more interesting than most small trombones. Is that tradeoff worth it?

Exactly this ^^^
The way I see it is that I can improve as a player (and get to know the horn better), but I can’t make a modern horn (Shires/Rath/etc) more interesting.

Is the bell closer since the slide is shorter? Meaning the bell section has to be longer in the back?

[ithinknot]

Is the bell closer since the slide is shorter? Meaning the bell section has to be longer in the back?

The bell is closer because that's where it is... you can alter the slide/bell length relationship without changing the distance between the mpc receiver and the edge of the flare. (In any case, the slides are shorter than Kings but only by about 3/8".)

[Digidog]

I’ve had 2 16m’s (just sold one) . Great horns however, they come equipped with the crappiest leadpipe of any horn I’ve ever played. I put Kanstul H8 leadpipes in both . It made the entire horn play so much better, better focus, better slotting and better range

This is probably what I should do to my horn! Great idea! The trombone has a lot of great qualities, but - as you say - it's very likely something about the leadpipe that makes it unnecessary delicate to play.

Is it Greenhoe that makes Kanstul-style leadpipes nowdays, or do I have to go hand-built custom made by some instrument builder?

[ithinknot]

This is probably what I should do to my horn! Great idea! The trombone has a lot of great qualities, but - as you say - it's very likely something about the leadpipe that makes it unnecessary delicate to play.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... it's mainly the parts-sharing undersized slide crook that makes it weird. Change the crook to something in the .54x region and the stock leadpipe actually makes sense. To be sure, it's very Watrous (at the open/flexible end of the spectrum) but it's convincing. Of course, you might still prefer something else, but changing the crook gets the instrument back onto neutral ground, at which point leadpipes behave more-or-less as expected.

[Burgerbob]

This is probably what I should do to my horn! Great idea! The trombone has a lot of great qualities, but - as you say - it's very likely something about the leadpipe that makes it unnecessary delicate to play.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... it's mainly the parts-sharing undersized slide crook that makes it weird. Change the crook to something in the .54x region and the stock leadpipe actually makes sense. To be sure, it's very Watrous (at the open/flexible end of the spectrum) but it's convincing. Of course, you might still prefer something else, but changing the crook gets the instrument back onto neutral ground, at which point leadpipes behave more-or-less as expected.

And here I go, looking for 3B crooks...

[ithinknot]

And here I go, looking for 3B crooks...

3B is marginally oversized (.555 IIRC) but people (Dick Nash!) like it. Between that and single radius it's definitely as far as one can go in that direction. MK offers dual radius NS options at .540 and .545. Yamaha 354 is .543, US spec brass or NS for EU.

[Burgerbob]

For anyone wondering, here are three of the products M/K has that would work:

https://www.mkdrawing.com/product/tromb ... mall-bore/

https://www.mkdrawing.com/product/tromb ... mall-bore/

https://www.mkdrawing.com/product/tromb ... mall-bore/

[Matt K]

I have a nickel M/K Olds Recording one on my 500/525 Franken 607F and love it.

[CarlVicVogel]

All:

Thanks for all the great info about the crook on the LT16M. I find that my horn plays a little tighter than my King 3B, but it blends very well with other Bach horns that are larger. Great for the Pops Orchestra I play in.

Thanks

Carl

[Slidehamilton]

For those considering 16M with a different lead pipe in it, I highly recommend the Shires .508 #2 pipe. It makes the horn feel very open, while centering very well. I always felt that the lead pipe was an issue for these horns.

[TheBoneRanger]

For those considering 16M with a different lead pipe in it, I highly recommend the Shires .508 #2 pipe. It makes the horn feel very open, while centering very well. I always felt that the lead pipe was an issue for these horns.

I have a Shires 1.5 in mine, which likewise seems an excellent balance for this horn.

[tbdana]

I am an unapologetic and enthusiastic fan of the LT16M. I have played on one since the late 1970s. My first one was a gift from Bill Watrous and had the smaller gooseneck and lead pipe. The one I have now is actually an LT16MG with a gold, brass bell, and the larger gooseneck and lead pipe. Every one I have ever played has been phenomenal. And they are incredibly versatile. I can actually do symphony work in a pinch with it. And I can play big bands, small combos, and rock ‘n’ roll too, and the horn plays great in every style. I like a deeper, warmer sound for most of my playing, so I am partial to the version with the gold brass bell, although those are very rare and hard to find.

I can’t tell you how many compliments I’ve gotten on my tone using that horn. Of course, some of that is mouthpiece and player, but this is a great ax for a beautiful sound. It gets a full and warm sound, but if you lean on it hard it will brighten up a bit without breaking up. It’s the closest in feel that you can get to a large bore sound while remaining a very balanced small bore horn, IMHO.

I’ve never experienced any of the quirks people are talking about. It seems like a very straightforward horn to me. It is incredibly smooth throughout the entire register, from pedal E to double B-flat. It is a fantastic horn for ballads, and boy does it show off good facility. For sure it doesn’t get in the way like a lot of horns do.

As for Waltrous altering his horn, I played with him for about 15 years, and never saw him play an altered 16M. He might have changed it later on, as I basically played with him in his prime, and I know he started experimenting later on, especially after his stroke.

[dukesboneman]

I`m with tbdana, I never experienced any quirks in my 16M`s
The standard leadpipe that comes with the 16M has a real lack of focus
But the H8 leadpipe or as some else stated the Shires 1.5 make all of that go away
I really hated to sell my last 16MG but my Lt12G suits me much better right now
For the people asking where I got an H8 - I asked here on the forum and someone contacted me
Ask and (hopefully) You shall receive

[harrisonreed]

I'm finding that tbdana and I are basically polar opposites. There will eventually be a topic that we will find common ground on. There's gotta be!

[Burgerbob]

I mean, I love 16Ms but it's hard to think of a mass-produced .508 that is more quirky.

[Chatname]

Apologies for hijacking this thread with a related question:
I have a Bach 16 bell section. I’m considering buying a slide from Bach to use with it, for classical playing. Any advice about which one would work best with this bell?

[Burgerbob]

I'm not sure Bach will sell you a slide- is the 16M even in the catalogue still? If it is, I think it's the only Bach small bore left so it would be the only option.

[tbdana]

I'm finding that tbdana and I are basically polar opposites. There will eventually be a topic that we will find common ground on. There's gotta be!

Really??? I hadn't noticed that, but I'll pay attention now. Maybe I'm just a contrarian! LOL!

[TromboneMusic]

Thanks for all of you sharing information concerning the BachLT16M. I have learned quite a bit about the LT16M. I now need to try one out.

[timbone]

It's an excellent horn. I bought mine in 1980 and almost wore the slide out plating wise until I had it silver plated up to the neckpipe. WOW, that changed things and furthered my quest for heavier slides. If you are serious about buying one at a retail place- try and play as many of the same slides as you can- they will all play different.

[Pezza]

I'm not sure Bach will sell you a slide- is the 16M even in the catalogue still? If it is, I think it's the only Bach small bore left so it would be the only option.

I'm pretty sure you can still get the 12

[Burgerbob]

I'm not sure Bach will sell you a slide- is the 16M even in the catalogue still? If it is, I think it's the only Bach small bore left so it would be the only option.

I'm pretty sure you can still get the 12

Strange, you're right. I thought that horn disappeared a while back.

[AndreaAndreoli]

Have you ever tried an Edwards T2 or T3 leadpipe in a Bach 16M?
I can’t find the Kanstul H8, but a friend of mine has an Edwards 508 and could give me his lead pipes.
Before altering the trombone I would like to have any feedback.
This slide comes with a king 3B end crock but the trombone it’s quite strange in the upper register.
High D’s are extremely flat and the instrument itself it’s on the flat side… tuning slide it’s almost completely in, on the other trombones I don’t have this issue.
I’m on a kind of 6 3/4C mouthpiece right now

[dukesboneman]

AndreaAndreoli, My 1st 16M was a Yellow Brass bell model. I put the Kanstul H8 leadpipe in and had a 3B Hand slide crook and a 3B tuning slide crook on the horn. The horn just SANG in the upper range. Very open blow. I never had a problem with the horn playing out of tune. But I never use the tuning slide. Mine always all the way in. I got to spend the day with Kai Winding back in `75 and the 1st thing he did was push my tuning slide all the way in and told me to use my ears. I play a Mt Vernon 7C. I had a back up 16M with a Gold Brass bell the I put an Edwards #2 Leadpipe in, and it worked. I also have an Edwards #2 in my Bach 36 and love it.
I talked with Mike Corrigan of BAC last January and they bought the Kanstul leadpipe tooling, so hopefully the H8 will be back on the market.
Good Luck

[AndreaAndreoli]

Thank you @dukesboneman!
Hoping the H8 will be back soon, in the meantime I try the edwards 2 thanks!

[ngrinder]

Lots of issues with the upper register with Bachs seem to stem from the leadpipe - I agree with dukesboneman! I've got a few 16M slides and the lead pipe change helped with all of them.

[tbdana]

Lots of issues with the upper register with Bachs seem to stem from the leadpipe - I agree with dukesboneman! I've got a few 16M slides and the lead pipe change helped with all of them.

I love my LT16MG and have zero issues with the upper register. In fact, in my region I often get hired because of my upper register, and wherever I play I almost always get stuck playing the high notes.

But, of course, high notes are hard, and this thread has me wondering if I should start playing with lead pipes to see if I can notice a difference and make them easier. I'm not an equipment hound, and shy away from experimenting because it's such a rabbit hole. But if I were to swap out lead pipes with one that is currently available, what's the consensus recommendation, and why that particular lead pipe?

[dukesboneman]

tbdana - I tried a good friend`s 16M a couple weeks ago with one of the Brass Ark`s 32H leadpipe made for .508 horns. Slotted well, good upper range and blew freely. I`d recommend that one

[TromboneMusic]

Thanks for everyone’s responses. They were excellent and answered my question and concerns.

[Matt K]

Lots of issues with the upper register with Bachs seem to stem from the leadpipe - I agree with dukesboneman! I've got a few 16M slides and the lead pipe change helped with all of them.

I love my LT16MG and have zero issues with the upper register. In fact, in my region I often get hired because of my upper register, and wherever I play I almost always get stuck playing the high notes.

But, of course, high notes are hard, and this thread has me wondering if I should start playing with lead pipes to see if I can notice a difference and make them easier. I'm not an equipment hound, and shy away from experimenting because it's such a rabbit hole. But if I were to swap out lead pipes with one that is currently available, what's the consensus recommendation, and why that particular lead pipe?

Yeah the 32H pipe replica or Shires are good. Just have your tech expand it to the appropriate diameter (probably a little shy of .509 on a 16M. Shires #2 is a good taper as well, so a T08-2 or perhaps a T08-1.5 which is probably more "Bach"like.

[ithinknot]

or perhaps a T08-1.5 which is probably more "Bach"like

FWIW small bore Bach pipes are generally short and open... the 1.5ish characterization perhaps makes sense for 42/50 pipes, but not here.

[Matt K]

Ah that would make sense, especially with how some find them to be characterized as they are here. 2 is definitely a "safe" choice either way, it's as popular as it is for a reason!

[Boneaphone]

I have a 1983 16M and just had the undersized slide crook replaced with a King 3B crook. It now has a more open and free response with improved slotting in the high range. I do not use a counter weight. Will a leadpipe change help even more? Could be but the crook change is less invasive and might get you where you want to be.

[heldenbone]

Hornguys still has in stock the Kanstul replica H0. Its description is "same as the H8 but turned down..." from .508 to .500. Surely 8 thousandths is not an impossible fix for a good tech?

[tbdana]

A few days ago I played an old LT16M that Al Kaplan used to own and sold to a friend of mine back in the 1980s. OMG! That horn was incredibly responsive! Played nothing at all like my horn. The notes just leaped out of it, and crossing partials was effortless. Alan had thinned the bell, which might be part of the reason it was so responsive. Also might be why it tended to break up when I leaned on it. But I couldn’t believe how easy it played.

[tbonesullivan]

A few days ago I played an old LT16M that Al Kaplan used to own and sold to a friend of mine back in the 1980s. OMG! That horn was incredibly responsive! Played nothing at all like my horn. The notes just leaped out of it, and crossing partials was effortless. Alan had thinned the bell, which might be part of the reason it was so responsive. Also might be why it tended to break up when I leaned on it. But I couldn’t believe how easy it played.

This is why when Tom "Bones" Malone sold all those trombones at Dillon Music I was so tempted. They were decently priced, and they were horns that he had chosen to keep over all those years. I have a friend who picked one up and says it's the best small bore horn he's ever played. I kind wish I was more of a small bore player.