Reading Is Fundamental

[timothy42b]

Another request from a high school student asking "Can you play this for me?" on this audition prepared piece.

That's a bit lazy, I think. If I couldn't read it, I'd type it into a notation program and hit playback. Probably take 5 minutes.

[harrisonreed]

Another request from a high school student asking "Can you play this for me?" on this audition prepared piece.

Bet his band got all "ones" at last month's marching band contest.

Not everyone is cut out for it I guess. That is a very easy thing to sight read, but not every kid is like that. Some are privately taught and educated, and others are forced to do it. There have always been people who just like music but aren't good at it, too.

Why are you still hating on kids, lol? We're heading into a half century where the will be drastically less kids than you grew up with. Each one will be working much harder than you or I had/have to to support an aging population. They're going to be pretty precious.

[officermayo]

1. Not hating on kids. Now band directors? That's another issue.

2. This is not sight reading, but given to the student in advance of their audition.

We keep lowering the standards and this is the result.

3. Future demographics have nothing to do with the current situation. Let's keep it on topic, shall we?

[harrisonreed]

I mean, the general discourse of this topic is basically the age old complaint that the younger generation is not up to snuff like kids in the "good old days" used to be. Fair enough if you're aiming the disappointment to the directors, but I keep reading mostly comments about kids asking for help, not band directors. Would you rather the kid reach out for help on how to play an audition piece or just have them not care at all?

I think future demographics are important to this discussion, since it already has been comparing the current dominant generation with the current younger generation thoughout all three pages of posts. We are headed to a society that will be composed of mostly 60+ year old people complaining about how kids in high school aren't up to snuff in any given field, or how they were taught differently when they were kids, and how things used to be better in the good old days. Except in this case, the 60+ year old people will be the majority of the population. I'm sorry, but this is not going to make anyone want to play ancient acoustic music or learn to read it off a page.

The way to keep kids interested and get them to want to learn to read music, and keep any sort of connection at all with the old people they will have to support is probably.... to have the older generation demonstrate how the piece is played and help them out.

We are already past the point in time where acoustic music is relevant to any measurable percentage of American society. I think what we're seeing in schools is a response to that -- we still have band because that's what we've always done, and not everyone can play basketball. The directors will keep kids in however they can because that is their job and participation is tied to keeping their job. And best case, that's assuming the kids aren't like the ones in that video on the other thread (physical fighting, etc, during rehearsals). Some school band programs are apparently like zoos, if those videos are even halfway accurate.

So... it could be that the system of learning by rote and keeping it "fun" is already the superior alternative to being a zoo keeper.

[tbdana]

I mean, the general discourse of this topic is basically the age old complaint that the younger generation is not up to snuff like kids in the "good old days" used to be. Fair enough if you're aiming the disappointment to the directors, but I keep reading mostly comments about kids asking for help, not band directors. Would you rather the kid reach out for help on how to play an audition piece or just have them not care at all?

Hey, we agree on something.

[BGuttman]

Part of this exercise (the one officermayo posted) is to see if the student can "figure out" how it goes on his own. I think we should teach him/her how to work out the piece, marking beats and playing VERY slow but in time. Just demonstrating how you would play it sorta bypasses the intent.

Now I have no problem playing an etude or lick in a piece to demonstrate how it should sound, but this still should be aimed at having the student recognize a pattern and associate notes on a page with sounds.

[Wilktone]

I'm not sure that I agree that this is suddenly more of a problem than before, but perhaps it is. There are many pressures on band directors and unfortunately many have to quantifiably justify their programs to their administration. That means contest awards and trophies. Not to mention the emphasis on marching band performances for half the school year, which requires the entire band to memorize their music as quickly as possible.

Sure, many band students aren't getting as much reading instruction and practice. For those of you who aren't band directors, what advice would you give a less-experienced band director to help get students reading more? Imagine a hypothetical scenario where the fall semester is devoted to marching band, concert band starts in January and runs to the summer. I have my own thoughts here, but I'm curious what some of you come up with.

I think most band directors are doing the best they can under the circumstances they have been given.

Dave

[officermayo]

I'm not sure that I agree that this is suddenly more of a problem than before, but perhaps it is....

My perspective is from spending a lot of time with HS and 1st year college students. I do realize that a only small percentage of HS band students will pursue higher musical education, but we don't send kids to college to study literature who cannot read. Why do it to musicians?

This is not an isolated occurrence.

[harrisonreed]

I would question the intent of a college admitting a Freshman into a music program who cannot read music. I'd also question the HS counselor or parent who is not doling out a heaping portion of realism and skepticism to anyone applying for a music degree, let alone a HS kid who didn't learn to read music or take private lessons of their own accord (as in, begging to take private lessons and taking them seriously).

There is no shortage of qualified applicants to music school these days. Some have said the level is higher now than it has ever been.

[Doug Elliott]

College and even high school is far too late to be getting good at reading. It's a language like any other and pretty much requires early learning to be effective.

I almost never have occasion to read alto clef these days, but I learned tenor and alto when I was in 8th grade and still can read it fairly fluently

[Kbiggs]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Sorry for the rant:

I recently started playing in a community college concert band (helping the director, who’s a friend). I was initially surprised that of the 7 trombones, 4 of them have some degree of difficulty reading the music (one other community member, and one student who has no difficulty), and with basic technique. Some of the tell-tale signs: marking parts with position numbers rather than notes; stopping to find one’s place while the rest of the band plays; slow slide movement or “fishing” to “find the notes”; etc. That’s to say nothing about breathing, embouchure, right hand posture, tone quality, intonation, phrasing, etc.

I have to remind myself:

*These 17 to 20-year-olds have spent about 3 years under quarantine or partial quarantine. A significant period of their early musical developed was playing via zoom, FaceTime, etc.;

*I am 60, and have +/- 48 years of musical experience, roughly 45-50 more years than they do;

*Only one of them (the one student) is a declared music major; the rest are undeclared, acquiring credits for transfer, or are pursuing an AA or a certificate;

*This generation grew up just after 9/11/01. They’ve grown up knowing that the US is always in a state of war. They’ve grown up with the squeeze of the middle class, and the celebration of rich, wealthy people (and pretenders to rich and wealthy) flaunting their wealth. They’ve grown up with constant political polarization, and a million other little things.

*They’ve grown up with the internet as the norm—which is something no other generation has experienced. Gutenberg’s press, Pony Express, telegraph, telephone, etc., pale in comparison to the power, attractiveness and deception of what’s on the interwebs. It has instant gratification and ever-present source of entertainment, distraction, and escape.

These kids look and behave different because they ARE different.

(For those who grew up during WWII or Vietnam, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are different: They have been a constant source of news and a drain on personnel and resources for 20+ years. While the Vietnam war seemed (and was) long and dragged on forever, active US involvement was about 15 years, from 1961 to 1976. Yes, news on the war was broadcast at night on the TV, which is completely different from the 24/7 news cycle and it’s parade of horribles.)

Most importantly:

*They are doing the best they can.

Yes, I wish they could read and play better. Yes, I get frustrated (internally) when I see one of them fishing for notes, and just barely reading the music. My job while playing in this band is to get along with them (be friendly and approachable), play my part as well as I can, be an example for them, and—if they ask or it’s glaringly apparent—provide information about better reading and playing earned from experience.

[Kbiggs]

I think we all agree that both reading and playing by ear are fundamental regardless of what kind of music you’re playing. (Folk musicians are an exception that proves the rule. So are The Beatles.) Those of us with more experience are obliged to help those with less experience. But most important of all: we have to get along, regardless of skill level.

Yes, it’s hard playing music with kids, and teaching them when their skills are deficient. I also know and believe that these kids (and a lot of other kids with deficient musical, math, reading, or other skills) don’t want to fail. They don’t want continue to play while sounding bad. They don’t like being put into a position where they won’t have some measure of success, whether it’s a C- or an A+. They don’t want to experience inadequacy, disappointment, or shame. Just like the rest of us.

Their motivation (if there really is such a thing as motivation, but that’s another post) may be to fill time in their schedule, obligation (parental, teacher, or peer pressure), or something else. But does it matter? No—they are right in front of you, asking for help (even though it may not look like it at times).

Regardless of someone’s developmental stage or skills acquired as a music student, I believe it’s important for those of us who teach (or who are in a position to teach by example) to encourage them to read better, and to stress the importance of both reading AND listening AND playing by ear.

***

End of rant.

[harrisonreed]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Sorry for the rant:

Some of the tell-tale signs: marking parts with position numbers rather than notes; stopping to find one’s place while the rest of the band plays;

This is me reading tuba parts in my current ensemble on bass trombone. Sometimes I want to just flip the music upside down. It would probably be better.

[JohnL]

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where the fall semester is devoted to marching band, concert band starts in January and runs to the summer.

Around here, the high school football regular season is over by the end of October (October 27 is the cutoff this year), but field show comps run into the second week of November (11/11 this year). Once that's done, they're into concert band and working on holiday music. If the football team goes deep into the playoffs, that might extend marching season, but only for a handful of schools.

I used to work as a computer tech at a high school. If I got tired of hearing the field show music by the third week of school, I hate to think how tired some of the kids got of it over a whole season.

[Cmillar]

Controversial, but here it is....

There are a lot of music/band teachers out there who are just not very good at what they do.

In an ideal world, no one should be allowed to teach band unless they have some experience outside of just growing up in high school band/marching band, playing in college band/marching band, and then getting a teaching gig without ever having done any other music jobs in their short life. (...or without even leaving their home town in order to see that there actually is a wider musical world out there.)

There are many, many, many music teachers out there that just don't have any 'real world' experience. And, unfortunately due to cutbacks in educational spending, too many 'music teachers' have to try to teach everything and every instrument, most of which they don't know anything about.

And, worse, many music teachers don't know that they could probably bring in some outside musician/teachers to at least do a masterclass/group lesson once in awhile.

Too many music students having nothing to relate to as far what their instrument could possibly even sound like, and they just learn their marching band music by wrote or from memory.

A lot of music/band directors 'live' for marching band and other music competitions throughout the year.

The students actually just learn to play a couple of pieces of music during the year, and they play them to death in order to sound perfect at a festival competition. They just end up memorizing the music and aren't introduced to very much music at all.

That's a huge weakness in the 'music education system'.

Sure, there are a few enlightened music educators out there who have a balanced view of the music world.

As I see it.

[harrisonreed]

In an ideal world, no one should be allowed to teach band unless they have some experience outside of just growing up in high school band/marching band, playing in college band/marching band, and then getting a teaching gig without ever having done any other music jobs in their short life. (...or without even leaving there home town in order to see that there actually is a wider musical world out there.)

Those numbers don't add up. It's not a one for one, zero sum game like apprenticeship was in the Renaissance. There are far more people who want to do art (music) than people who get paid to do art, and even if there were enough jobs in the arts to produce teachers for every program, a lot of times those people aren't going to stop making art just to take a teaching position as a qualified candidate.

For that matter, a teacher in any position could be in the same boat. Imagine if the requirement to teach physics at the college level was that you needed to have worked at CERN for a few years. The only positions that would be filled would be at MIT and schools at that level, where they could still be researching, and they would really have to pay well to attract the qualified staff.

The key with music is that it almost entirely on the student, not the teacher, to get to whatever level they have the potential to achieve. I think that's the case for any field. You don't become an astronaut working for NASA because your teacher went out of their way to teach you even when you you wanted to be lazy. You become an astronaut because you weren't lazy, not even one single day, and challenged your teachers every day.

[Cmillar]

I'm just saying "in an ideal world" for music education as it is in US/Canada (what I've seen and know)

[VJOFan]

This thread started with an observation that it seemed weird that a person would post sheet music and ask, "How does this go?"

I don't think the question necessarily reveals anything about the fluency of the reading of the asker. As has been acknowledged, there is a difference between accurately transferring notated pitches and rhythms to sound, and playing a piece with full fidelity to stylistic or composer intent.

(I still don't know why a digital native wouldn't just google it and find 25 interpretations- but that probably is more about getting validation on social media.)

The question put me in mind of the summer after first year university when I was preparing for my jury to get into the performance stream. I had a stack of repertoire and no idea what any of it was. I was also 500 miles away from my teacher or a music library where I could get information. I laugh when I think of preparing that great Baroque sonata by Hindemith. I desperately needed to aske someone, "How does this go?"

[tbdana]

Controversial, but here it is....

There are a lot of music/band teachers out there who are just not very good at what they do.

In an ideal world, no one should be allowed to teach band unless they have some experience outside of just growing up in high school band/marching band, playing in college band/marching band, and then getting a teaching gig without ever having done any other music jobs in their short life. (...or without even leaving their home town in order to see that there actually is a wider musical world out there.)

There are many, many, many music teachers out there that just don't have any 'real world' experience. And, unfortunately due to cutbacks in educational spending, too many 'music teachers' have to try to teach everything and every instrument, most of which they don't know anything about.
...
The students actually just learn to play a couple of pieces of music during the year, and they play them to death in order to sound perfect at a festival competition. They just end up memorizing the music and aren't introduced to very much music at all.

That's a huge weakness in the 'music education system'.

That kind of begs the question: What is the purpose of music education in schools? Is it to groom future professional musicians? Is it to survey music and give students a chance to dip their toes in the water, without any real expectations from them? What exactly should be the goal of a school music program, and does that require fluency with reading music?

Serious music students need a vehicle to launch them into college with a music scholarship. A future electrical engineer benefits from a glimpse into a part of the world he will never experience after HS. Is one of those the purpose? Or both? Or neither?

If 90% of HS music students never intend to do anything with music (performance or education) beyond HS marching band, should the teacher or students really care whether or not they can read music? And should anyone care whether the teacher has real life experience as a performer in the music business?

[tbdana]

At a local college, the music department chair (a friend of mine) has brought in three professional musicians to fill holes and stack performance ability in its jazz ensemble. One of the student trombone players in our section can't functionally read music. He doesn't practice, he doesn't have a teacher, and he's "just there to have fun." He's not interested in learning to read music well.

That college also pays some of us to fill principal positions in its symphony orchestra, bringing us in for the last couple rehearsals and the performances. Some of the folks in that orchestra can't read, either. One trumpet player just seems to sit there and fart out a few notes now and then in random places, and gives up once he realizes he's screwed it up. The conductor just pretends not to hear, and spends no time trying to bring that trumpet player along, leaving any improvement up to the ringer hired to play principal.

How important is it that these students read music? And if they can't, what are the professors to do about it?

I'll tell you that both of these professors are talented, knowledgeable, experienced musicians, with real world experience. Indeed, the conductor of the school symphony is not only paying me to play in it, he has gotten me onto gigs this upcoming holiday season that he usually does, because he has conflicts. And the jazz ensemble professor works as a saxophonist and flautist, and is also music director for a local musical theater company, where he plays piano and conducts the orchestra. These guys are real world musicians.

But what the heck are they supposed to do with those students who in college still can't read music but are in the music program? What is it we're expecting from these teachers?

[Burgerbob]

They're almost definitely not music majors.

[Doug Elliott]

If those students were in any other curriculum they would be expected to do SOMETHING, but music is just a fun activity so they get to do nothing.

[harrisonreed]

I mean, there is no real objective way to quantify the quality of music. So as long as people keep paying money to be in the music program, they will keep "teaching" them. Who are the teachers telling kids to find a new calling? I'm sure they exist but they are probably rare. And the ones in programs where they would tell you to take a hike are probably at schools like NEC and Juilliard. The bar to enter is already really high, and if you aren't working out there are hundreds of others waiting for a slot.

[Cmillar]

From having been a music 'sub-teacher' as well as a guest conductor/masterclass/teacher at a lot of middle schools and high schools over the years, what I see more and more is that music and art classes are becoming the 'dumping grounds' for kids that might otherwise be sent home for poor behavior or that don't have the academic standards to choose anything that might require actual 'reading/writing' for another class.

So, kids that don't have any patience, that don't have any aptitude for respect and listening to teachers, that don't respect their fellow students, that don't respect how to treat school equipment, etc. etc. ...are sent to the band room, and most of them end up becoming percussion majors because they get to make some noise. (Art teachers have the exact same problems, except the damage to their computers and other equipment is sometimes even worse)

On the bright side, a few of those kids actually find out that they like music and music will could actually help change a few lives here and there and turn their attitudes around.

But anyways...that's just another reason why a lot of US/Canadian music students can't read (or don't want to bother) to read music. They're just thrown into a music program where the band director has to deal with what he or she is given.

The public music education system needs some work, and district art/music supervisors should do some actual consulting with their band directors to help make things better in some areas.

Half the kids just treat music as a joke class in order to get a passing grade at something.

[JohnL]

But what the heck are they supposed to do with those students who in college still can't read music but are in the music program?

Are they in the music program (i.e., majoring in music) are they just taking music classes?

In a situation where a class is just barely making the minimum enrollment to avoid being cancelled, any warm body is welcome - even one who basically just occupies space.

[tbdana]

But what the heck are they supposed to do with those students who in college still can't read music but are in the music program?

Are they in the music program (i.e., majoring in music) are they just taking music classes?

In a situation where a class is just barely making the minimum enrollment to avoid being cancelled, any warm body is welcome - even one who basically just occupies space.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, they're just taking music classes. They can't possibly be music majors....I hope! LOL!

[Doug Elliott]

Maybe not so different from voice majors who were only there because they had a nice singing voice and knew nothing about music. They were always the worst at sight singing and anything related to theory.

[robcat2075]

In a discussion elsewhere on the web someone made the point that music notation is one of the defining characteristics of western music.

The ability to write it down such that it can be duplicated, distributed, learned, performed, preserved, rediscovered... without absolutely needing to hear it from another performer... is something that sets western music apart from and bestows upon it great possibilities that other musical traditions, wonderful though they may be, didn't have.

If you're not reading music you are locked out of part of what has made the music what it is.


.

But what the heck are they supposed to do with those students who in college still can't read music but are in the music program?

Are they in the music program (i.e., majoring in music) are they just taking music classes?

In a situation where a class is just barely making the minimum enrollment to avoid being cancelled, any warm body is welcome - even one who basically just occupies space.

At my college one of the music profs was a freshman advisor to randomly assigned incoming students. If any of them admitted to ever playing any instrument they got signed up for music theory 101 to satisfy their music requirement.

They were completely at sea, having to read and write music on the first day.

[officermayo]

Perhaps this would be useful.

[VJOFan]

This is amazing! A primary music teacher could go to town with this and a box of rhythm instruments.

[JohnL]

Ham-bur-ger for triplets.

[SGH]

I knew a beginner program that used “pie”.
Works well

Pie
Apple pie
Coconut pie
Strawberry pie
Huckleberry pie
Chocolate pie

[Wilktone]

Using rhythmic solfege is an excellent way to help students learn to read rhythms better. The music teachers at the elementary school that hosts the El Sistema program I direct uses the following rhythmic solfege, so we do as well to be consistent.

Takadimi_Syllables_(companion_to_rhythm_guide_I).pdf

A former teacher for us used this food-based approach with her bucket band students to develop the students' rhythmic fluency. It worked very well.

music-notes-rhythm-guide.jpg

The basic idea with these approaches is to learn the sound of the rhythm and develop the connection with how it looks on the paper. Our students don't just learn how to read these rhythms, they also get taught how hear it and then write it down. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, learning to transcribe notes and rhythms is excellent reading practice and is something that isn't often emphasized enough.

Dave

[tbdana]

I dunno, but after looking at that chart, I'm hungry!

[Doug Elliott]

Chart? I thought it was a menu.

[JohnL]

I'd avoid the use of "chocolate" (yeah, I know, I love chocolate, too). Some people pronounce all three syllables, so there's the potential for confusion (even worse for those in whose native language it has four syllables).

[brassmedic]

I'd avoid the use of "chocolate" (yeah, I know, I love chocolate, too). Some people pronounce all three syllables, so there's the potential for confusion (even worse for those in whose native language it has four syllables).

"Harvey Wallbanger" would work.

[Wilktone]

I'd avoid the use of "chocolate" (yeah, I know, I love chocolate, too). Some people pronounce all three syllables, so there's the potential for confusion (even worse for those in whose native language it has four syllables).

In my experience this isn't an issue. 5-10 year olds are quite capable of following the correct number of syllables. Maybe some adults would have trouble, but young students are much more adaptable than most of us give them credit.

[VJOFan]

Ta Ta ti ti ta tiri tiri ti ti ta.

How many of us are good with that?

[AtomicClock]

Ta Ta ti ti ta tiri tiri ti ti ta.

How many of us are good with that?

I had to google it.

[Oslide]

Ta Ta ti ti ta tiri tiri ti ti ta.
How many of us are good with that?

Easy-peasy for great tits (Parus major). In springtime, they do it all day long.

[robcat2075]

This food thing substitutes learning one rhythmic analog for another, but is it superior?

Some students will learn by it, but will more learn better or faster by it?

It's not self-explanatory, all those rhythms will still have to be demonstrated and matched to a phrase.

Many do not mimic natural speaking rhythm. For example, consider that most people saying "hot dog" will say it as two eighths (downbeat upbeat) rather than the two quarters (downbeat, downbeat) in the chart.

Consider also that this chart presents not one analog for two eighths, but... eleven!

Is there something fatally flawed about one and two and...?

[ithinknot]

This food thing substitutes learning one rhythmic analog for another, but is it superior?

Some students will learn by it, but will more learn better or faster by it?

I raised exactly this point with a music teacher when I was 6.

No opinions were changed, but I did learn just how much a particular type of adult appreciated feedback.

[Wilktone]

Some students will learn by it, but will more learn better or faster by it?

In my experience it is a great way to teach young students rhythms, particularly if you are following the "sound before sight" approach that is generally considered the best approach at that age.

The "food solfège" I posted is simply a step in the process that might be used in teaching young music students how to read rhythms. You're essentially creating lyrics for rhythmic figures that the students can latch onto in order to understand how those rhythms sound and eventually learn to associate the written notation for the aural result. Once those associations are connected they are no longer needed. And if you're concerned that some people use more syllables than others for some words or start the word naturally on the upbeat or other some such worries, it's not an issue. Young music students are very capable of learning to sing songs with lyrics that have shortened words or melismas, as well as rhythmic pacing that is different from natural speech.

Most importantly, it turns learning how to read and play rhythms more fun. The food associations are something that young students can relate to and easily remember. You don't need to stick with these rhythms, have the students make up their own words. That gives them even more of a personal connection to what they're learning.

If you don't work with young students, your millage may vary. But I sometimes bring out this idea to older students (or even use it myself) when I'm tasked with playing something using quintuplets (I think to myself, "u-ni-ver-si-ty") or septuplets (I think of one of my alma maters, "Ball-State U-ni-ver-si-ty"). Try it sometime.

Dave

[Wilktone]

Ta Ta ti ti ta tiri tiri ti ti ta.

How many of us are good with that?

I had to google it.

I guess you guys didn't take Elementary Music Methods in college? You've probably at least heard of Kodaly.

Screenshot 2023-11-01 at 9.09.42 AM.png

Ta Ta Ti-ti Ta, Ti-ri-ti-ri Ti-ti Ta (rest)

Not hard once you know what means what.

[robcat2075]

For any who haven't encountered it, here is the "traditional" system:

countingTraditional.png

How is this not "solfege"? It is syllables used to demonstrate the rhythms.
How is this less teachable? It is a simple pattern.
How is this less instructive? It embodies counting and subdivision of the beat, concepts we want to be learned.
How is it less consistent? Two eighths, for example, will always have the same construction regardless of what precede or follow them, not 11 different possibilities.

[ithinknot]

the universal language.jpg

Simple or syncopated... sorted.

when I'm tasked with playing something using quintuplets (I think to myself, "u-ni-ver-si-ty")

... but /ˌjuːnɪˈvəːsɪti/ has an internal stress or protorhythm that disrupts even subdivision.

You don't say /oneːtwoˈthreeːfourːfive/ by default.

I guess I'm just wary of educational processes that involve some degree of replacement or retirement further down the line. You know from the embouchure side of things how difficult substitutions can be, whether of concept or practice... not to mention the extent to which supposedly neutral or generic propositions often prove to influence people in surprisingly distant (and/or counterproductive) ways.

Of course I don't actually think this stuff is harmful (even if as a child I found it a self-evident waste of time), and of course teaching contexts vary enormously, and a larger toolkit is always advantageous... but to make a serious point... I spent several years teaching in the Anglican choral world, which is unusual in being a score-based tradition where the default outcome at premier institutions is that children can sightread at a professionally reliable level before the age of 10 and are routinely performing highly complex and atonal music on relatively minimal rehearsal. In that context, there was always value in breaking things down to component parts, but I honestly can't think of any situation where there was a routine need to overlay a purely external/substitute element. Inevitably, singers would remember certain difficult passages in conjunction with the text setting, but that's reflective of memory formation... it wasn't how they got it right in the first instance.

[Posaunus]

I guess I'm just wary of educational processes that involve some degree of replacement or retirement further down the line. ...

I'm with David and Rob (almost) all the way on this one. I learned to count the old-fashioned way (one and two and ...), and it's worked well for me. But my daughter started Suzuki violin at the age of four and found substitutions (e.g. Miss-is-sip-pi Hot Dog) helpful - for a year or two. Then she also learned to count.

[timothy42b]

This food thing substitutes learning one rhythmic analog for another, but is it superior?

Some students will learn by it, but will more learn better or faster by it?

I raised exactly this point with a music teacher when I was 6.

No opinions were changed, but I did learn just how much a particular type of adult appreciated feedback.

And from that you learned a better way to respond, when the time came for you to be the adult. Probably a better lesson than any of the others you got from that person.

[BGuttman]

Talking about using words for rhythms, my teacher used to call the dotted eighth - sixteenth - eighth (like in Wagner's "Ride") the "Amsterdam rhythm" since you say Amsterdam in approximately the right cadence. I still remember that, and it's been 60 years.