In or Out

[tbdana]

Tubist Tommy Johnson (famous for his upper register shark theme in "Jaws") said, "You're either in the music business, or you're not." By which he meant you're either all-in or you're not in it at all. No such thing as kinda-sorta or sometimes in the music business. If you're in, you take everything you possibly can. And if you don't do that, you're really out of the business, including in the minds of those who hire professional musicians.

What do you think of that?

I tend to agree with it, on multiple levels.

[cb56]

Music. Business. Oxymoron
I can name several top notch musicians that took day gigs or stopped playing for awhile to earn a living outside the "music bussiness"
Starting with JJ Johnson.

[BGuttman]

It actually goes earlier than JJ. There was a time you could get a job playing that was as steady as, say, a factory job. Those have become very rare nowadays and almost never include trombone players. A job with a major Symphony or Opera orchestra pays well, but many of them often supplement their income with teaching. A full-time teaching job at a University is becoming a rare bird.

Most of the people I know who consider themselves Professional either play multiple instruments or teach a large studio.

There are some full-time jobs out there but the competition is fierce. Also pretty localized to SoCal and NYC.

I used to play MPTF gigs with a fantastic trombone player who had a day job as an insurance agent. There is a limit to how many jobs are available in northern Massachusetts and southern New Hampshire.

I made my decision a long time ago. Engineers generally eat better than musicians.

[harrisonreed]

Music business? You mean the act of collecting donor money, managing invested assets, and then figuring out how little of you can give to the musicians in your organization before they go on strike? All while not innovating, delivering the same concert music year after year, and losing ticket buying customers?

Or are you talking about Tay-Tay bypassing the streaming industry and Hollywood to bring her concert film direct to theaters? Good for her, by the way. One musician of a high enough level figured it out and had the means to deliver something.

One of these two versions actually has to do with artistry, the musician being paid for their performance, and delivering a product to interested music consumers. Though it may pain some to think about it that way.

[Kbiggs]

Perhaps Tommy Johnson was talking about commitment and professional responsibility, not time. Or, maybe he was talking about commercial music and money management, like Harrison suggested. After all, Tommy was a junior high music teacher when he recorded the music for Jaws.

[robcat2075]

Tubist Tommy Johnson... said, "You're either in the music business, or you're not."

Who did he think he was correcting with this declaration and why did it matter that they were corrected?

[rickfaulknernyc]

There are some full-time jobs out there but the competition is fierce. Also pretty localized to SoCal and NYC.

Here in NYC the ability to earn a living solely from playing has been on a steady decline since at least the 90's, when I arrived. I transitioned into full-time teaching 20 years ago, realizing it was the best option to support my family. Post COVID, suddenly a lot of my freelancer friends are now asking how they could go about getting a teaching job like mine.

Ironically, according to musicians I know who were on the scene in the 60's, Broadway pit jobs used to be the gigs that nobody wanted to do. Now they're just about the last bastion of steady employment outside of the major orchestras.

[baileyman]

Bill Evan's brother was in the Baton Rouge Department of Education. He got lots of local jazz guys permanent teaching jobs, to my benefit among many others. (One of my high school band directors jumped off the Third Herd that way.) You can visit both of them under a live oak tree off Florida Blvd.

[JohnL]

If you're in, you take everything you possibly can. And if you don't do that, you're really out of the business, including in the minds of those who hire professional musicians.

I think this part of the original post makes it pretty clear what Tommy Johnson was trying to say. If you're going to be in, you need to take whatever gigs come your way it it's at all possible. It doesn't take too many rounds of "thanks, but no thanks" for someone to move you down their list (or just plain take you off of it).

I suspect this advice was originally intended for younger musicians who were trying to establish themselves, but it's applicable to more established players, too (though they have a bit more flexibility). Heck, it's applicable in LIFE. You turn someone down often enough, they get the impression that you're not interested (unless they're some sort of stalker).

[Doug Elliott]

Being "in the music business all in" can mean a steady orchestra gig, touring, freelancing, booking gigs, teaching school, teaching college, private teaching, working in a music store, composing or arranging, or in my case several of those things plus making mouthpieces.

Being a military musician just barely counts...

And I've done that too, but it was after many years of freelancing, touring, and making mouthpieces.

In or out refers to level of commitment. For me it's pretty much 24/7/365.

[sf105]

Wasn't it the case that even CSO players used to have summer jobs, some non-musical, to cover for the short season well into the 60's?

[harrisonreed]

Being a military musician just barely counts...

And you were in one of the "Special Bands". I've met a lot of those guys in DC and they mostly seemed miserable. Outside of the overseas military assignments, the "regular band" job is heavy on the administrative tasks.

I will say that it is great to have 3+ hours of practice or rehearsals built into the day. If you go for it you can maintain a high level.

[imsevimse]

This is something I've thought about. When are you In and when are you out? What is your own opinion? When are you not a musician anymore?
People who recon themselves to be professional musicians over here seem to include their teaching job as an accepted part of their pro identity as players. Music teachers can consider themselves to be pro players as long as they have ANY freelance job as musicians too. They can tell they teach, but not if they have a completely different job outside music, and certainly not if it is well paid, thats a big NO NO . A pro musician needs to only do music related stuff and NOT to be a well paid engineer on the side for example. A lot of musicians also get public economic support when they have no gigs over here. That support comes from taxes that people like me who have (other) jobs pay. Even though living on economic support which many musiscians do occationally they don't see that as gifts, but rather as a part of their bussiness.
I know people in US have no problem to take ANY other jobs and still consider themselves to be musiscians. I don't think you consider it to be any shame in that. I think it's more honest, but it's not the same here. People like myself who changed career and now have other steady jobs are often banned from all better paid professional musiscianjobs. I've heard it said about myself. "Don't call him, he doesn't need it. He has another job. Call N N
instead".
This means many musicians don't tell about their other (occational) jobs because they know how things are. You should express you suffer at least a little poverty or else you are too wealthy to be considered. I have very few pro jobs nowdays, not more than 5% of my income is from gigs.
I would like a gig now and then just to feel the audience, but most of my playing are rehearsals in kick-start bands. I guess I'm out. The big problem over here is music isn't valued enough. Too few are interested enough to pay for music and the musiscians themselves who have the interest can not afford concerts themselves. Without public support we would not have the best full time pro orchestras we have either. It's sad!

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

Regarding "Don't call him, he doesn't need it. He has another job"
I've been a freelancer, dependent on that small income, and I've been in the Air Force getting a good salary - and back to being a freelancer.
If I am hiring players for my own gigs, I try to give preference to players who DON'T have another source of income - I know they need it, just like me.
--------
"And you were in one of the "Special Bands". I've met a lot of those guys in DC and they mostly seemed miserable."
Sure, there are a few in there like that. I wasn't miserable but I got out after 8 years because I didn't want the administrative job it was starting to become at the time. I work with many of the fantastic players in the DC bands - recently did a big band Maynard Ferguson tribute concert with an unbelievable trumpet section behind me, Airmen of Note and Army Blues players - none of them are miserable, they love their jobs. I seriously doubt that anybody in the Note, Commodores, or Blues feels miserable.

[harrisonreed]

The members of those bands are fantastic. The jazz groups are great too, and you're right, they are probably pretty content. We were trying to get some insight into Pershings the last time I went to ATW and the woodwind players and some of the other people in the concert band were ... Yeah, they seemed not happy with the job. Maybe it was just a bad week.

I'm surprised the admin stuff was affecting you in that group, Doug. It seems to be creeping into the Army special bands too. They just changed up how the Army is doing promotions for the special bands, making it exactly like the rest of the army -- can't imagine they are happy about the changes. Then again, Pershings is probably the only company sized unit in the military with 20+ E9 slots, which is a huge number. Chances are good to make rank over time no matter what they do to the process.

For me, the job doesn't get any better than being assigned overseas and playing music all the time. I love that.

[BGuttman]

So. Do we call Charles Ives not a professional because he ran an insurance agency? Rimsky-Korsakoff not professional because he was a naval officer?

Popular music bands now are 4 or 5 players; most of them on something electronic. 75 years ago a popular music band included between 2 and 4 trombones. Playing our beloved horn has evolved to be like wielding the buggy whip on the carriage. If you want to be a full time trombone player you are limited to a couple of dozen jobs within the entire US. Everybody else has to hybridize their profession. And to complicate matters further, there are a lot more talented players vying for these few jobs than there were back 75 years ago.

Look how many of us took "day jobs" so that we could afford to take the few lower level gigs that were available.

[Matt K]

I don’t think that makes a lot of sense. Worldwide, there are almost no requirements for occupational licensing. Union participation is not required for the majority of work; arguably, in the US at least, some of the best paying jobs are off the table without it, but it isn’t like trades where you have to start out working as an associate etc etc. It doesn’t require an advanced degree.

For that matter, you don’t really even need to speak the same language on the stage as other members and a huge percent of the population enjoys doing the work that some even pay to do it for fun (community bands etc). It’s probably one of the least “in or out” professions out there.

The original quote here seems to be focusing on freelancers, which may be more “in or out” compared to other musicians (in the sense that there are a small number of people who get many of the calls). It’s also true that a small number of composers get a lion share of programming. But that’s just a basic Pareto distribution which is by no means unique to music.

[Ozzlefinch]

I told my kids that if they want to make a living in music, then buy a cape and a flamethrower. It's the best way to get people to pay money to see your show.

[imsevimse]

Regarding "Don't call him, he doesn't need it. He has another job"
I've been a freelancer, dependent on that small income, and I've been in the Air Force getting a good salary - and back to being a freelancer.
If I am hiring players for my own gigs, I try to give preference to players who DON'T have another source of income - I know they need it, just like me.

Yes, I see the point. If somone needs it better they should have it. I'm a lucky guy.

There are community orchestras were people like me can play. Some community orchestras pay, but it's not much. When my pro friends hear I play cheap in a community orchestra they don't like that either. I guess they don't want me to play any gigs that gives money at all.

The problem is music is going down fast here. I do what I can to help. I go and visit concerts and pay to hear my friends play. Tickets are expesive but I think it is worth.

I guess the fact I have a good job and decent salary is some kind of a double edged sword. It gives me the possibility to buy a lot of instruments and music related stuff and visit concerts which helps music industry as well as it helps my pro friends and it also means I get to hear a lot of good music, but the backside with my job is it disqualifies me to get the pro gigs I had before I switched career.

I play as much as I can with different bands and I practice a lot at home. The best musical experiences happen in the livingroom

/Tom

[JohnL]

There are community orchestras were people like me can play. Some community orchestras pay, but it's not much. When my pro friends hear I play cheap in a community orchestra they don't like that either. I guess they don't want me to play any gigs that gives money at all.

I've heard complaints about people who take non-paying gigs, and about organizations that give free concerts. When someone is really struggling to get by, that sort of thing can be seen as a threat to their livelihood.

[MrHCinDE]

This reminds me about a naive mistake I made as an engineering student. I was working as a summer student at an engineering company and got a call from a band I‘d previously helped out to ask whether I could help them out for a gig. They said they were a bit stuck and considering I had a day or two of holiday as part of my summer job and it was a nice musical opportunity I took it. We agreed a price based on the equivalent hourly rate from my student job (probably about £10-12 per hour) and some mileage allowance (covered the cost, no more, no less). I was happy, they were happy, all good.

However, I found out they had also been in negotiation with my teacher. I had unwittingly undercut him and effectively „stolen“ the gig from him. Certainly I wasn‘t on the same level as him and they got what they paid for but apparently that was good enough. My teacher wasn‘t best pleased but it‘s just one of those things I suppose.

Nowadays I wouldn’t like to deprive any freelancer of a paid gig by undercutting the market rate so if it‘s a gig where I think professionals might be interested I ask a trusted pro friend what the market rate would be and use that as a starting point. If I get it over a pro then it generally means no pros are interested/available so it‘s fair game.

Gigs for local amateur groups that rely on goodwill to help each other out I play for free or just travel cost, as others do for the groups I‘ve played in, that‘s how it works around here.

[BurckhardtS]

Our culture is full of hyperbole and black-and-white thinking. Yet nothing in life truly is that black and white. That kind of thinking gets you nowhere.

That's all I really have to say.

[Wilktone]

"Music business" is a very broad term. It encompasses performing, composing/arranging, teaching, producing, recording, promoting, copywork, publishing, booking, instrument manufacturing, repair work, and more.

When I was a music student I was given the advice that I should only major in music and choose music as a career if I couldn't see myself doing anything else for a living. Otherwise, I was advised to find a career path that I could see myself doing and continue to study music, but more as a hobby.

I've also heard the advice that if you really want to make it as a professional performer you shouldn't get a music education degree to "fall back on," because you will always be tempted to take that alternate career. If you are all in on being a performer you need to focus exclusively on that. If you want to be an orchestral trombonist, don't waste your time learning to play jazz and vice versa, it will only distract you.

These days this advice is outdated. The average American will change careers 3-7 times in their life. Flexibility and versatility might be more valuable than a narrow focus. I've gone through a number of career path shifts in my life, with some of that time spent almost exclusively as a performer and some as a music teacher. These days most of my time is spent administering a music program, with maybe another 25% of my time teaching and 25% creating music. Does that count as being all-in the music business?

Does the fact that Christian Lindberg gives master classes make him any less of a music professional?

Most importantly, does it matter what label someone else gives you? Why should we use someone else's definition for success and what makes us happy?

Dave

[Digidog]

Tubist Tommy Johnson (famous for his upper register shark theme in "Jaws") said, "You're either in the music business, or you're not." By which he meant you're either all-in or you're not in it at all. No such thing as kinda-sorta or sometimes in the music business. If you're in, you take everything you possibly can. And if you don't do that, you're really out of the business, including in the minds of those who hire professional musicians.

What do you think of that?

I tend to agree with it, on multiple levels.

A typical sweeping, generalistic and nonsensical statement, that's only blurted out to provoke and force someone to take a stand and a side of opinions.

If you want to maintain a high level of playing and performing, you have to give it lots of time and dedication; that's nothing new and not very clever to point out in that way. To that should be added, that when you are really skilled and professionally sought after, people will ask you to teach them; either privately or within an educational institution. Mozart, Bach, Beethoven all took on students, Paganini, Liszt and Björling too - all to varying degrees, but nonetheless. They were no less professional because of that, nor did it diminish their skills and artistry.

To me, professionalism is a matter of focus, concentration and the ability to clear yourself of anything but performing on your task and tool, regardless of if you're having a bad day or dislike the task and loathe the circumstances. Everybody can have a better of worse day, but - to me - the true professional can keep a standard that is commercially and performance-wise viable regardless.

That has - in the end - nothing with from where you get your income.

[andesl10]

I've been struggling with this myself over the last few years. It's easy to be "all in" while you're still a student. While I was finishing my Masters degree, virtually due to Covid, I moved to Baltimore. I worked part time subbing at a local school(Not music classes), recording my Masters Recital, driving Door Dash, and doing pretty involved course work.

After I got my degree I was a Barista, and continued trying to make connections in the area, which was slow due to Covid. Then I began teaching Elementary School Music, meeting more people and slowly getting more work in the area. After some time teaching, I had an opportunity to manage Baltimore Symphony's Youth Orchestra program, which ironically kept me away from my instrument. I was listening to great musicians a the Meyerhof every day, I was working in my "field", and playing gigs, but my playing was getting worse and worse and I've never felt more distant from being a musician.

I left the Youth Orchestra job, and currently work at an Antique Doll Auction house. I have a full time job AND time to practice my instrument more than just working on fundamentals. I have the energy to think of myself as a musician again, even though my bills are paid by working in a field quite removed from music.

I think it's important, maybe I'm reminding myself here too, that being a professional musician can look many different ways. It's not just about being in the top orchestra or ensemble, or teaching at a prestigious school. Are you making music at the highest level YOU can? Are you continually working to improve that musicianship and technique? Are you able to spend time with your family AND create little moments that are musically or artistically fulfilling? I think everyone's experience has to be different, how else do we develop our own voice?

[VJOFan]

I don't see this as professional or not professional. It is about focussed or not focussed.

You're all in as long as your primary reason for getting up every day is to improve your musical abilities, knowledge, network and horizons. To get anywhere as a musician there has to be at least a period of your life where musical things are the only priority.

You're out when you play because it's enjoyable, but aren't trying to do anything more than the job in front of you at any particular time. There are plenty of "professional" players who aren't "all in". There are plenty of people who aren't making or might never make much of anything from music who are completely obsessed with it.

So, I think the original quote is likely an attempt to explain what it takes to get to a point where your skills match your ambition. Maybe it should be, "You are either all in for as long as it's going to take to get established, or you'll never be in at all."