False Tones on Small Bore?

[Stefano]

I’m playing my new straight Selmer Bolero (.508). No problem getting big pedal tones, but struggling to get meaningful false tones below the staff. I saw a video of someone getting meaningful false tones on a straight 3B. Is this an instrument issue or an experience/practice issue, or both?

Not a big deal, as I’m unlikely to need them in actual performance.

[DaveAshley]

Were you having an easier time playing them on another instrument?

[Kbiggs]

Experience and practice. Falset or factitious tones are between the fundamental and first partial. Generally speaking, the factitious tones are about a minor third below the first partial. You can find a perfect fourth by going down one slide position, so low F is in second position; E is in third; Eb in fourth, etc.

One way to practice them is to deliberately leave the slide in first, then deliberately lower the note chromatically by half steps until you reach a Gb (use a tuner or a drone), and you’ll find a semi-stable area. Keep the muscles around the corners of the mouth firm (especially the bottom part) and the lower lip flat. Experiment around and you’ll find it.

I made a couple of small exercises just for this:

Perfect fourths downward (combined).pdf

Major triad with lower factitious tone (combined).pdf

[Stefano]

Were you having an easier time playing them on another instrument?

My last time on another instrument was 45 years ago, and I don’t think I ever explored false tones, or needed them.

[Stefano]

One way to practice them is to deliberately leave the slide in first, then deliberately lower the note chromatically by half steps until you reach a Gb (use a tuner or a drone), and you’ll find a semi-stable area. Keep the muscles around the corners of the mouth firm (especially the bottom part) and the lower lip flat. Experiment around and you’ll find it.

I’ll practice this, and glissando down also.

Many thanks!

[Burgerbob]

They are easier on small bore horns than most other things.

The series starts on a Gb in first position and follow down the slide from there.

[BGuttman]

They are easier on small bore horns than most other things.

The series starts on a Gb in first position and follow down the slide from there.

I've never had much luck with Gb in 1st position, but Eb, D, and Db in the outer positions were much easier to find.

[DaveAshley]

Things I think of when doing false tones - Firm corners (sides of your mouth) and lips forward. Keep that tummy firm, almost like you're pushing outward. Most importantly - slow down your air!

[Stefano]

Things I think of when doing false tones - Firm corners (sides of your mouth) and lips forward. Keep that tummy firm, almost like you're pushing outward. Most importantly - slow down your air!

Slowing down the air--that was key.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. False tones are coming along. I'll have to save my 'It's the horn" excuse for something else.

[nateaff]

I practice glissandos down into false tones and back up nearly every day in addition to (and in lieu of) long tones. On every position do I lip glissando down the minor 6th and back up and before long you'll have the false tones pretty secure. You might even accidentally get a better sound in the low register like I did.

[SoVTTb]

It’s cool to see where people think of their false tones sitting position-wise; I’ve always found them to pop most solidly wherever my slide would be if I was playing them with a trigger, so in the long versions of where they’d sit an octave up, bottoming out with C in “trigger” 6th position out on the stockings. I *think* I initially got that way of thinking from an old David Baker book that I found in high school, but I’m not sure.

Anyways I practice them in arpeggios to try and even them out and get them in tune.

[Burgerbob]

It’s cool to see where people think of their false tones sitting position-wise; I’ve always found them to pop most solidly wherever my slide would be if I was playing them with a trigger, so in the long versions of where they’d sit an octave up, bottoming out with C in “trigger” 6th position out on the stockings. I *think* I initially got that way of thinking from an old David Baker book that I found in high school, but I’m not sure.

Anyways I practice them in arpeggios to try and even them out and get them in tune.

Well, just think about it for a moment. Why would they work in the same place as the valve? Physically that makes no sense. The horn/overtone series don't know anything about an F attachment.

[tbdana]

This thread makes me think I should practice false tones. I can play 'em, but they don't sound as good as the real tones, and I have a hard time just hitting them cleanly with a full sound. They are mushy sounding and not solid in pitch or attack. In theory I should be able to make that Eb - C (or even the B) sound just as good as the low Bb - E above them, but I can't. Maybe if I spent time working on them, but I don't. This thread is nagging me to do it. One more thing to add to the list. Thanks a lot. LOL

[Kbiggs]

This thread makes me think I should practice false tones. I can play 'em, but they don't sound as good as the real tones, and I have a hard time just hitting them cleanly with a full sound. They are mushy sounding and not solid in pitch or attack. In theory I should be able to make that Eb - C (or even the B) sound just as good as the low Bb - E above them, but I can't. Maybe if I spent time working on them, but I don't. This thread is nagging me to do it. One more thing to add to the list. Thanks a lot. LOL

Yer welcome!! LOL

I’ve played them on and off for years. I haven’t had a decent small-bore horn for years—I’m not counting my pBone or my old ConcerTone Besson stencil. Factitious tones take a lot of *finesse* on a 42 or a 50. Still, I find them useful.

I don’t play or sound like him, but I try to keep in mind that George Roberts often used factitious tones for low C and low B. Firm corners, flat chin, stable center, good air flow are essential. Having the pitch in your head also helps Bill Watrous also used them extensively, and he had a stone face as far as embouchure is concerned.

They’ll never sound as good as the real thing, and a clean start to the note is often… elusive? I’d say that’s just another reason to practice them, knowing full well that perfection on these notes is a fool’s errand. Still, I’m told I should continue to practice them because “they’re good for you.” Ugh.

[SoVTTb]

It’s cool to see where people think of their false tones sitting position-wise; I’ve always found them to pop most solidly wherever my slide would be if I was playing them with a trigger, so in the long versions of where they’d sit an octave up, bottoming out with C in “trigger” 6th position out on the stockings. I *think* I initially got that way of thinking from an old David Baker book that I found in high school, but I’m not sure.

Anyways I practice them in arpeggios to try and even them out and get them in tune.

Well, just think about it for a moment. Why would they work in the same place as the valve? Physically that makes no sense. The horn/overtone series don't know anything about an F attachment.

Yeah, I dunno, you’re right, it seems like it should underblow at a proper fourth down, and maybe it does more reliably than I usually use. Maybe part of it is giving myself a bit of extra room to overblow the note from where it would “naturally” sit so that it speaks a bit brighter and more resonantly.

[GGJazz]

Hello all.

I always played fake tones in the F valve positions .

I avoid Gb in first , because , for me , it sound very nesty.
Comparing to the regular Bb slide positions , I like to play F in b1 , E in b2 , Eb in bb3 , D in #5 , Db in 6 , C in bb7 . The C also in bb2 with the F valve engaged , the B in 4 ( with the F valve engaged).
In these positions , fake tones results to be very strong , for me .

More , I play a fake note in the regular valve position , then I add the valve , and the tone really pops out super- centered.

Also , if you play fake tones in regular F valve positions on a straight trbn , a time you got a horn with valve , you already know the trigger positions .

Of course , there are many way to do the same thing .

Regards
Giancarlo

[Burgerbob]

The way it was explained to me is that the false tones are a series in B.

The 1st partial is pedal B in first position, a major 7th below pedal Bb

3rd partial is F#, major 3rd below 2nd partial Bb

5th partial is D#, whole step below 3rd partial F

7th partial is flat A, half step below 4th partial Bb

and it follows down the slide. Something to do with the acoustics of the instrument... far above my math pay grade. Notice how we only get every other partial.

[GGJazz]

Hi Aidan.

Probably your theoretical explanation is right for sure , but I just showed what works best for me ( and for some others trbn players with whom I discussed this topic ) .

Regards
Giancarlo

[GGJazz]

Hi again.

Just to add a few thoughts , I checked the Bill Watrous / Alan Raph book ' "Trombonisms" (published by C. Fischer in 1983) .

In page 32 , about the topic " Playing very low notes" , they wrote 《 ...... The cultivation of low notes is most important in the F - attachment register . It is even possible to play these notes on a tenor trombone WHITOUT attachment as so called "HALF OVERTONES" ..... The following diagram shows the correct slide positions for these notes , with or WHITOUT the F attachment 》 .

In the diagram they wrote , compared to the Bb positions , there are the regular F-valve positions (i.e. Eb/ bb3 ; D/#5 , etc ) .

Regards again
Giancarlo

[Olofson]

I hope it is ok to put it here Bob?

[imsevimse]

I hope it is ok to put it here Bob?

Great video examples and references, and good explanations there how these notes work. I add my own video where I use a straight trombone and play these notes in a simple study. They should not sound different from the normal notes on the horn and therefore I think it is best to include them in normal playing and not just see them as party tricks. I regularly look for chances to play alternate positions anyway so why not spend time to extend the scales below the normal small bore straight trombone register anytime you have the chance? Best sound and correct positions for these notes are Gb on first, F on second, E on third and so on just as BurgerBob explains in his video. If you force a low F on the first position or in any other place where it doesn't really belong it is to practice "bending" and bending factitious tones can of course be handy too in certain studies, but for best sound and efficiency and to be usable (for me) then I need to play them where they physically should be (see the explanation above from burgerbob). It is like difference of night and day if you want to use them and make them sound and work like normal notes with best possible good sound and articulation

/Tom

[ithinknot]

One more thing to add to the list. Thanks a lot. LOL

You're at an advantage already - small Bachs have the best false tones

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

I think that there are many way to do the same thing , as I wrote in my first replay. Expecially on topics that are not so already "academically codified" as indeed fake tones.

Here a video in which Jonathan Allen ( trbn professor at the Iowa University ) embrace the way to play fake tones on F valve positions .

Check at 02:13 ( after he is showing how to bend in the same 3rd position from low Ab to E)


Different people , different opinions. What works best for each of us , it' fine .

Regards
Giancarlo

[imsevimse]

Hi all.

I think that there are many way to do the same thing , as I wrote in my first replay.

Here a video in which Jonathan Allen ( trbn professor at the Iowa University ) embrace the way to play fake tones on F valve positions .

Check at 02:13 ( after he is showing how to bend in the same 3rd position from low Ab to E)


Different people , different opinions.

Regards
Giancarlo

As BurgerBob says in his video it is no logic to relate these factitious notes on an actual straight horn to the positions of an imagined trigger horn. Maybe it can be a way to practice the transition to a trigger horn for other reasons. Maybe he was taught the trigger this way? One thing is for sure.To be able to force notes the way he does tells me he has a solid and strong emboushure, but even though he may be a very good and strong player he is wrong when it comes to where the factitious notes are, he doesn't even mention them by that name. The factitious notes are on certain positions for the reason just as explained by BurgerBob above, because they come from another series where every other note is omitted. It has nothing to do with a trombone with a trigger. On first there is the BB and next is then F# followed by d# and then a. After a not really possible to force them.

It is an educational interesting video though. He does some interesting things. He bends notes, and he is good at it and bent notes can be on any position. Bent notes are not the same as false tones. False tones are on the other hand same thing as factitious notes. In my book his talk is about bent notes and when he speaks about false tones he seem not to make any distinction between factitious notes and bent notes.
He says the low F and E on same position as the trigger positions T1 and T2 are more difficult and that the next note Eb becomes better. T3 happens to be very close to the regular 4:th position where the factitious note Eb is so that makes a lot of sense, it is also according to the position chart BurgerBob supplied.

In my experience the factitious notes on first and second position (Gb and F) as well as the bent factitious notes (F, E) he practices are indeed also more difficult on the type of horn he plays, but I suspect it has more to do with two other things. First; It has to do with the proportion of cylindrar tubes in use. More cylindrical makes them easier. Second; More mass from the trigger makes them more difficult to produce.

This means the factitious notes Gb and F on first and second should be easier on a straight trombone, and if you compare, then they are.

I have many trombones and from my experience when I have compared these things it is the same on any trombone with a trigger compared to same horn with no trigger. Notes on any verson (trigger/straight) becomes easier from Eb and down but in general factitious notes are easier on straight horns

Since this thread is about false tones on smallbores and it doesn't specifically say only on straight horns we could continue to dig into the trigger notes as well, because as BurgerBob showed there is a good C on T2 which is a major third below the E on T2 and there is also a good B on T3. I practice them on my .500 Lars Gerdt Bb/G horn too but of course then they are on T4 and T5 since the valve is in G.

/Tom

[Olofson]

Hi all.

I think that there are many way to do the same thing , as I wrote in my first replay. Expecially on topics that are not so already "academically codified" as indeed fake tones.

Here a video in which Jonathan Allen ( trbn professor at the Iowa University ) embrace the way to play fake tones on F valve positions .

Check at 02:13 ( after he is showing how to bend in the same 3rd position from low Ab to E)


Different people , different opinions. What works best for each of us , it' fine .

Regards
Giancarlo

Jonathan is not doing the same thing, he is just aiming for the trigger positions not using the trigger. Of course the sound he get that way is very airy and not resonant. The funny thing is the last exampel when he play the false ton B, it could be resonant but it does not really even if the slide is in the right position. He is doing something else, he would easily get the false tones with resonance if he just moved the slide a bit, but I don´t think that is hes intention.

[GGJazz]

Hi..

@ Imsevinse @ Olofson : I apologize , but I do not understand your point ...
Jonathan Allen , at 02:13 on , says that when false tone Eb happens , you have to play it in 3,5 pos, that is bb3 regular Bb pos. , that is T3 pos. So this means, to me , that he play fake tones on the same F valve positions . He is not playing fake Eb in regular 4th .

Bill Watrous and Alan Raph wrote , in their book I mentioned above , that fake tones and Trigger tone have to be played in the same F valve positions . Maybe those two guys knows a little about the horn...

Why do you think that your way is the " absolute truth" ?

To me fake Eb sound great in bb3 ; to you , in 4th . That' all . That' fine .

Regards
Giancarlo

[imsevimse]

Hi..

@ Imsevinse @ Olofson : I apologize , but I do not understand your point ...
Jonathan Allen , at 02:13 on , says that when false tone Eb happens , you have to play it in 3,5 pos, that is bb3 regular Bb pos. , that is T3 pos. So this means, to me , that he play fake tones on the same F valve positions . He is not playing fake Eb in regular 4th .

Bill Watrous and Alan Raph wrote , in their book I mentioned above , that fake tones and Trigger tone have to be played in the same F valve positions . Maybe those two guys knows a little about the horn...

Why do you think that your way is the " absolute truth" ?

To me fake Eb sound great in bb3 ; to you , in 4th . That' all . That' fine .

Regards
Giancarlo

"Jonathan Allen , at 02:13 on , says that when false tone Eb happens , you have to play it in 3,5 pos, that is bb3 regular Bb pos. , that is T3 pos. So this means, to me , that he play fake tones on the same F valve positions . He is not playing fake Eb in regular 4th"
No but there he is getting closer and that's why I think he also get them easier .To me a bb3 is close to 4, you could as well call it #4 and it also depend on how you tune the valve which may differ depending on what you want (another thread so I will not get into that)

First is the facts is what differs. Best position can't just be any place, since it is about physics. Second is the sound evidence differs. Here you have three videos where factitious notes are played one way and then you have one other video which is about something else where the notes are forced and played in any position. If I listen I hear a clear difference in sound.
The point to play them as BurgerBob says in his post is to find the spot so they can sound the best, in my case so they can be used and not only a partytrick. They must then be just as good as the rest of the notes that are played in a phrase, and they need to be accepted in the musical context. If you search litterature you will find sources of both ways in text, but it isn't logical that the notes could just be in any of two (or more) places that are equally good, especially since there are explanations for them physically that supports what BurgerBob wrote above. Maybe we need to dig deeper into this. I'm here to both share and to learn and I try to stay open minded. There are many threads about these notes also threads that explain the physics, but there are very few evidence in sound. What happens if we ask for videos as evidence to support where they sound the best for a certain player. It could be fun and educational. Anyone can play notes wherever they want for many different reasons and that is not what I'm talking about. I want to hear them played with a good sonourous sound, and used in a way they can be accepted in the musical context they are used. They must then not sound like a party trick.

/Tom

[AtomicClock]

The way it was explained to me is that the false tones are a series in B.
The 1st partial is pedal B in first position, a major 7th below pedal Bb
...

The existence of the "triple" pedal B (an octave below the pedal B Aidan describes, which I call double pedal) and the ease we (just I?) have in lipping regular pedals down a fourth (F in first) suggests another odd-numbered partial series another octave down.

I've known about triple pedals for a while, but haven't been able to create them, until now. On flugabone, they're hilarious. 14 Hz! Must be the added resistance.

[GGJazz]

Hi again .

@ Imsevinse . Well , I do not think that the Jonathan Allen video is about something else .
As I wrote above the link , from the beginning of the video until 02:13 he is showing bending between low Ab and E , staying in 3rd position ; and this , of course is a different thing . THEN he show how he play Eb , both fake and with valve , in the same position , bb3 .

Position bb3 (or 3,5, or T3 ) are obviously close to 4th , but is not the same .

He is not playing these fake tones with a great tone , that true .

It can be better for shure , but fake tones does not have to sound as regular tones . They can' t resonate as a natural note .

Anyway , I think that this is showed also in the others videos : does not seem to me that the fake tones played by Byorkman sound so beautiful and close to natural tones... Also he make a strong embouchure change on them . I think that fake notes have to be played with the embouchure you have for regular trigger tones .

In my opinion , the "party trick" (as you are saying) is this alleged explanation of the " false tones B harmonic series" , showed by Byorkman .
He play the double B with a so messed embouchure , that to me do not make sense to establish a startpoint from a tone played in this way .. the F# , the D# , and the A sounds pretty bad too ; just bended notes ... So what kind of demostration this could be ?

Anyway , I am NOT saying that playing fake tones as you and Byorkman are doing is a wrong way ; not at all !! I know that there are same players that embrace this way .
So what?
I just say that I prefer play it in valve positions , because I do not find that big difference , so it is easier for me the way I am doing . For myself , of course ( and for some others players too) .

At the end , fake tones are not so important , in my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

[imsevimse]

At the end , fake tones are not so important , in my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

Yes, finally we agree on something. They are not that important. The best players in the world do not need to practice factitious notes to be the best players in the world. You can be a very good tromboneplayer without ever have practiced these notes.

In my case. I am a semi-professonal tromboneplayer who has spent many many hours with them and I do not know if you listened to my video because you did not comment my result, but I do consider myself as one who CAN play them with a good sound. In fact I haven't heard better except from my teacher who taught them to me, and he used them professionally during his whole career and he still does. I admit my factitious notes are not as good as his.

I thought it would be fun if the ones who do find them important made a video of them with some good sound
and put in a musical context because thats something we haven't done yet at this forum. There are no such thread that I've heard of, not yet

/Tom

[Olofson]

FWIW in a bigband rehearsel today I hade a D2 with plunger,( played on fifth position,) the arengement was written by a trombonplayer to be played by another trombonist. (The Boy In The Tree, Sammy Nestico,Gordon Olsson)

[tbdana]

After reading this thread I worked on false tones for a couple of days. Then yesterday they just completely popped! Solid on tongue articulations, in tune, and with a tone almost indistinguishable from the low and pedal notes on either side of them (which might say something about my bad tone rather than my good false notes LOL ). Just all of a sudden they were there, and they were solid.

Today I'll find out if it was a one-off or if I've somehow magically learned to play them well. I think I know which it will likely be.

Edited to add: Nope. No magic. Back to the way it sounded the day before yesterday. LOL!

[Olofson]

There must have been thusends of singeltrigger bastrombonists playing lots of low C:s and B:s as false tones, all of you have heard recordings of some of those.

[imsevimse]

There must have been thusends of singeltrigger bastrombonists playing lots of low C:s and B:s as false tones, all of you have heard recordings of some of those.

/Tom

[timothy42b]

Thanks for the explanations and demonstrations.

A solid low C in T2 seems hugely useful for a tenor player. Even with long enough arms it's often hard to get out there fast enough.

But a question. I've played euphoniums that seem to have a solid low Eb in open, and the series sits pretty well chromatically down from there. These didn't feel like false tones, they slotted pretty well even for me, a far less than accomplished player. I've talked to tuba players who use that series on tuba (and euphonium players who say it doesn't work on compensated euphs). That doesn't fit with the major third on trombone series, does it?

[AtomicClock]

I was just watching a David Werden video where he explores the false tone series on euphonium, including D below 2nd partial Bb, and a double pedal B (both fingered open). That contradicts Aidan's idea of a parallel harmonic series. Or maybe just proves that a euphonium is not a trombone.

Since the trombone is neither a pure double-open pipe nor a half-open pipe, it doesn't naturally have an overtone series that lines up with the (mathematical) harmonic series. But the instrument designers did a pretty darn good job of shaping the mouthpiece, bell, etc. to reconstruct something very close. But there is no reason to think that any weak resonances form a series that approaches harmonic. Maybe trombone is closer than tuba/euph simply because it is closer to a pipe? I've never seen any physics describing an overtone series for an ideal cone.

[Burgerbob]

Tubas and euphoniums have a totally different false tones series.

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

Well , some guys here are so proud about fake tones...I am starting to think they could be some "Just Stop Valves" activists ( I am joking !) .

@ Olofson : I recall the tune , named also Belly Roll . You have to play these fake tones during the tenor sax solo , as part of the background . If I recall correctly , you play it in bars 1 , 3 , and 7 of the background ( one chorus) , on the 3rd beat , two eigths notes low D , with plunger mute , the first D closed , the second D open . Of course , you have to play it as fake tones , being that you have to play it with the plunger . Probably one of the few charts worldwide with this kind of things , I guess.

Just a question : this tune was composed and recorded by the Quincy Jones / Sammy Nestico Big Band , and recorded in the "Basie & Beyond " album . The bass trombonist was Bill Reichenbach . What Gordon Olsson have to do with ? Just curious .

@Imsevinse : I listened to your video , but .... you wrote that you consider yourself as 《 one who CAN play them with a good sound .In fact I havent' heard better except from my teacher》 . Since you have already declared this , I do not see any use or interest you could have in my possible comment .
I am happy for you , of course !

Just for the OP . Fake tone are not that important , but , of course , we have to learn it as part of the whole technical skills we have to develop on trombone . As well as multiphonics , circular breathing , etc.

Regards
Giancarlo

[imsevimse]

@Imsevinse : I listened to your video , but .... you wrote that you consider yourself as 《 one who CAN play them with a good sound .In fact I havent' heard better except from my teacher》 . Since you have already declared this , I do not see any use or interest you could have in my possible comment .
I am happy for you , of course !

Sorry, I do not follow. Are they that bad or are they that good?
Well I am interested in your comment and the fact that I haven't heard better than mine is subjective, and yes maybe that is good for me, but it is not what is important. I would like to hear good factitious notes from other players and that's why I write this. I hope my comment would make people do some videos and show me, because I'm sure there must be professionals who can do them better than me.

I think most would agree that there are very few examples of factitious notes with a "good enough" sound ("good enough" since it is subjective). With this I mean a sound that at least fits the context and leave the listner with a thought like "Yes, that factitious note was so good that I admit I did like it"

"Subjective" fact is most of the ones I have stumbled on just sound like noice. I did my recording with hope to inspire the ones who practice and ask about these notes like the OP and show that they can be at least as good as mine are.

I'm writing this for anyone who happen to be interested in these notes, but I'm infact very interested in YOUR opinion of my factitious notes. I'm also interested to hear what other players think and I would like to hear good attempts on these notes. It's not a contest. it is to spread knowledge about them, it is about sharing what you know and what you work at.

Usually it's a lot of talk and very little music here so therefore I thank BurgerBob for his comments and his VERY GOOD demo and I'm also greatful I got to see Håkan Björkman share his knowledge. More videos and evidence are welcome and hoppfully we will have some kind of consensus on these notes in the future like the consensus that the earth is round... (oh wait some still think it's flat even if they see photos from the sky). Okay, we will never have consensus, but at least we will hopefully have more good evidence pointing at different directions. Anyone interested and openminded can then judge the evidence for themself. I hope my video inspires and help some (OP and other who seek and find this thread) to try and experiment with these factitious notes, because they can sound like real notes if you play them on the positions where they physically are.

/Tom

[Olofson]

Hi all.

Well , some guys here are so proud about fake tones...I am starting to think they could be some "Just Stop Valves" activists ( I am joking !) .

@ Olofson : I recall the tune , named also Belly Roll . You have to play these fake tones during the tenor sax solo , as part of the background . If I recall correctly , you play it in bars 1 , 3 , and 7 of the background ( one chorus) , on the 3rd beat , two eigths notes low D , with plunger mute , the first D closed , the second D open . Of course , you have to play it as fake tones , being that you have to play it with the plunger . Probably one of the few charts worldwide with this kind of things , I guess.

Just a question : this tune was composed and recorded by the Quincy Jones / Sammy Nestico Big Band , and recorded in the "Basie & Beyond " album . The bass trombonist was Bill Reichenbach . What Gordon Olsson have to do with ? Just curious .


Regards
Giancarlo

The tune was recorded 1961 by the Swedish band for the film with the same titl. Quncy wrote the tune and liked it so much that he latter record it at least one more time. The basstrombonist in the original recording was Gordon Olsson. It is not very often you come across plunger work in the trigger range, but it does happen now and then.

[Olofson]

Thanks for the explanations and demonstrations.

A solid low C in T2 seems hugely useful for a tenor player. Even with long enough arms it's often hard to get out there fast enough.

But a question. I've played euphoniums that seem to have a solid low Eb in open, and the series sits pretty well chromatically down from there. These didn't feel like false tones, they slotted pretty well even for me, a far less than accomplished player. I've talked to tuba players who use that series on tuba (and euphonium players who say it doesn't work on compensated euphs). That doesn't fit with the major third on trombone series, does it?

Just to check, you do understand the low C in T2 is two ledgers under the staf? Not very often written for tenor, but it does happen.
The low Eb in open is a false tone used by many tubaists, the famous tubaist William Bell used it and wrote about in his book. You can make an uppward glissando from the pedal tone to a fourth up, on the trombone you can make glissando down from the second parsial to a major third down. The tubas (euphonium is a tuba) are much more conically, the standing wave can be shortened with the embouchure, the trombones are more cylindrically so the standing wave can be made longer with the embouchure.

[GGJazz]

Hello all .
Hi Tom.

Yours fake tones are very good !

Anyway , I think that they are not comparable to real trigger notes.
They have - of course being fake tones- a bottom of hardness , and do not sound round , steady , resonant , warm , projected , as the real notes does. Just because they can' t .

So , if I were in you , I would use them only in contemporary solo performance , or in a solo "cadenza" in a jazz tune , or something like that .
I would avoid to insert them in classical performance , as in this context usually the player seek for a perfect similarity of sound' quality .


Maybe for this reason few players spend so much time on them , and almost every classical tenor trbn player nowadays have a F valved horn .

Still , you play it great .

This is my opinion , as you requested for it .

Regards
Giancarlo