Why does Watrous get such a bad rap on this site?

[tbdana]

watrous.jpeg

IMHO Bill Watrous was one of the finest trombonists ever. And he moved the instrument forward in his idiom. When Manhattan Wildlife Refuge came out, no one was playing like Billy. Today, lots of players can do stuff that was unheard of back in the 1970s, and it's because of Billy. And I don't think a trombonist has ever lived who could play ballads better than Watrous.

I'm biased because he was a friend, but I don't get why he gets such harsh treatment here from some.

[Burgerbob]

Does he? I haven't seen that.

I was lucky enough to play with him in a reading band shortly before he died. He sounded great, playing and singing, and had some great stories for us.

[Mr412]

Out of respect, I never diss'd him around here or anywhere else in public. But a little bit of "Billy" goes a looooooooooong way on my ears. I'll put Urbie and JJ in that category as well, all for different reasons. I also disagree that he was the penultimate balladeer, but I get why others may think so. It's a matter of personal taste and there is no accounting for that. We all like what we like and it doesn't have to make any kind of sense. That's the wonderful thing about art.

[ithinknot]

Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.

[tbdana]

Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.

This is interesting. What do you mean by "the far end of one particular stylistic path," and why is that "polarizing?" I just knew him as a commercial/jazz trombonist like a lot of people, just with incredible chops. So I'm not understanding this perspective, but it sounds like it might be behind my perception that he gets dissed around here. 'Splain it to me like I only have two functioning brain cells (not saying I have more than that, LOL!).

[BGuttman]

I think if you are into the Fontana/Johnson style of flash and brilliance, Watrous comes off as a bit "tame". Personally I love his playing and wish I could even come close. But others may call for a different role model.

[Doug Elliott]

I wouldn't exactly call his playing "tame." Except his very first album.
In the '70's I listened to all of his albums constantly after the first time I heard him live at ITF in Nashville (ITW back then)
And bootleg recordings of Bill, Carl, and Frank.

I have a friend who knew Bill when he was in the Navy - early '60's I guess.

[EriKon]

I haven't seen anyone in here who would say Bill Watrous is no good or something like that. But for me personally I would say that I just like other players from the same era or in similar styles more. Especially since I recently discovered a lot of those Urbie Green records. But with like really "swinging" players, I just like Fontana and Rosolino more. And with the sweet style playing, I just enjoy listening to Urbie or Dick Nash a little more. Dick Nash especially because I really like this sound. To me it just sounds more full but also a bit more clear than Watrous. I remember Jiggs Whigham telling me at a rehearsal (back when I looked very much like Watrous lol) that Watrous was technically a beast but only until mezzopiano (can't recall the exact wording of him) and he would say Watrous was a microphone player, so he never played loud. Even when they played section together. Which I'm not sure of if all of this is really true to be honest and I'm sure others in here will say the opposite. Maybe there was a bit of a rivalry there, I don't know.

I haven't checked out much of the electrical stuff, so I can't really speak on that.

That said, I feel like one of the greatest trombone tunes I've heard is from that Slide Hampton World of Trombone album Spirit Of The Horn and Watrous plays 'A Flower is a Lovesome Thing'. Pure beauty and also one of my favorite titles, no matter how much I listen to it.

[Bach5G]

I don’t know if Watrous necessarily gets a “bad rap” on this site but there are people here who are not his biggest fans. And some who are his biggest fans.

Is Watrous known to anyone who does not play trombone?

I’ll bite: who is the ultimate ballad player? Dorsey?

[ithinknot]

Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.

This is interesting. What do you mean by "the far end of one particular stylistic path," and why is that "polarizing?" I just knew him as a commercial/jazz trombonist like a lot of people, just with incredible chops. So I'm not understanding this perspective, but it sounds like it might be behind my perception that he gets dissed around here. 'Splain it to me like I only have two functioning brain cells (not saying I have more than that, LOL!).

Obviously, as a working commercial player he did all sorts of things that weren't Bill Watrous™, but we're talking about the stylistic choices as a soloist - the mic approach, dynamics, more-or-less fixed timbre, doodle. Who else sounded like him? Fontana, sometimes, but there was still much more tonal and dynamic inflection, and the doodling tended to be more intermittent.

These days you'd also see comparisons to Fedchock and McChesney thrown around... to the detractors, especially if they're players, it's all a bit too detached/cold/cerebral, the doodling is showing off, and the mic eating is inherently suspect. (That last part usually has some sort of unspoken implication about masculinity - trombone are loud and make big honk, and anything else is... cheating?)

The Fedchock comparison is particularly interesting, if only to me. I think that if you don't like "this sort of thing" generally, he and Watrous probably come across as quite similar.

But I find the opposite. To me, Watrous is still 100% in the vocal tradition, via Urbie, Dorsey... players who were fundamentally song stylists. The technique is there too, and sometimes in the foreground*, but the underlying sensibility was always pure crooner. (Confirmed by the fact that he could and would sing, and vib and all it's exactly like his playing... or rather, vice versa...) Fedchock isn't; whether by design, or just the change of generations breaking that link, it strikes me as a purely instrumental phenomenon.

Anyway, if what you really want is Curtis Fuller, then all these people aren't. And Watrous especially isn't.


*I don't doubt the impression Fourth Floor Walk-Up made in its moment, and being the first counts for plenty, but by his own later and accurate admission, there's really not much there musically. (I forget where is it - one of his long interviews, maybe the one with Michael Davis - essentially "I was young and had something to prove, but...")

Maybe that gives some sort of impression... of length, if nothing else.

[Doug Elliott]

I totally agree with that assessment

[cmcslide]

I heard Bill Watrous and Curtis Fuller together once at an ITA workshop, as it was known back then. Talk about opposite stylistic approaches! Many of the players mentioned here have a specific sound, some use the mic more than others; I prefer to be able to play on or off mic and use the entire sonic palette of the horn, but that’s just me. Nothing wrong with different styles and sounds!

[Fidbone]

Fedchock & McChesney have quite a bit more harmonic content in their solos whereas Watrous & Fontana are more traditional in approach.
All have astounding chops but all wouldn’t be able to play the lines they do in a loud trombonistic way. But then why would they when they all make a great living and are famed as soloists.
I love em all

[MStarke]

I have probably said somewhere that he is not my favorite. Obviously I would be more than happy to take his high chops and jazz playing to replace mine. For me personally, I just prefer other players such as Urbie Green, Carl Fontana, Andy Martin, Alan Kaplan, Bart van Lier, Ludwig Nuss etc. But I am just a classically trombonist with limited exposure to jazz, so my opinion doesn't count too much. I probably have only heard very little of his recordings which definitely limits my evaluation.

On the other hand I think we are all free to have our own preferences. I have other players who are generally considered as being "trombone heroes" who again are far beyond what I would ever be able to achieve, but I simply do not always enjoy their playing. Interestingly most of them have a very foreseeable and to a degree one-dimensional, even though impressive style. More details in private message only

[harrisonreed]

Not being as fun to listen to as Frank Rosolino doesn't mean that you're getting a bad rap. Just those hard facts tho.

[EriKon]

Word!

[baileyman]

An old friend, now passed, said he knew Bill at the Navy School, that he was just one of the trombones, sounded like everyone else. I've asked lots of people who knew Bill, How did he get motivated to change and how did he go about it? That to me is the most interesting question. All of us should want to be able to get onto a program to remake our playing so successfully.

(A related question, not for here, is, How can one develop a total improvisation practice routine that fully develops and maintains skill? Because it appears there is not enough time in the day to develop terrific improvisation chops and also spend time playing square exercises.)

For anyone who thinks Bill couldn't play like a regular trombone, see Navy comment above, or listen to Kai Winding's "Dirty Dog".

[Bach5G]

I had a CD of Watrous fronting a big band that was billed as his first recording or something like that. Very early on his professional career to judge from the photo of a young guy on the cover.

The playing was competent enough but pretty unremarkable. I often wondered how he developed his chops after that. Too bad he’s gone. That might be a fascinating discussion.

Or maybe he’d say “practice”.

Sorry that he’s gone. To play in a rehearsal band with B would have been fun I bet.

[Finetales]

In general, Bill's way of playing is fairly polarizing. You either really dig his unique approach and sound or you really don't. I haven't met anyone who is indifferent about it.

There is an old video of Bill playing in a trad jazz group, and sounding like any other trad jazz player. Maybe it was shared on TC? I can't remember. But it demonstrated that he could sound "normal" and play loud if he wanted to.

[OneTon]

Giving “Bill Watrous a bad rap” may be argumentative and assumes a fact not in evidence. Or not. I have a boot leg cd and a Paul Williams cd that has some of the best trombone playing that I have heard. Some of Bill Watrous playing can get to display of technique for technicality’s sake. My mentor seemed to like it. I had to analyze the first movement of Bartok’s “Concerto for Orchestra.” I figured out the form and became enamored of it. (Also Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Fritz Reiner, and Bud Herseth.) I cannot claim to understand it it or replicate Bartok’s technique. Maybe I need to listen more to Bill Watrous. I doubt if I ever approach his technical ability.

[jacobgarchik]

It's good to be able to articulate what you like and don't like! Doesn't diminish his accomplishments. He certainly had fine trombone technique. Saying "he played soft" doesn't mean what he did was easy.

Watrous made choices. He was Roswell Rudd's roommate and studied with Herbie Nichols in the early 60s. He could have gone the way of Rudd and done probing hard hitting avant-jazz for discriminating (and small) audiences...

If you are a fan of that kind of take no compromises approach, embodied by the masters Ellington Bird Monk Coltrane etc (as I am) you will probably be disappointed by Watrous.

There's different types of technique. Improvisational technique, for example. Stylistic technique - the technique of avoiding cliche, of having discerning taste, the Miles Davis school of restraint and poise - that can be studied as rigorously as developing a good high range.

[Bach5G]

I recall Sam Burtis saying something very similar, that Bill ‘made his choices’.

[Mr412]

It appears to me that we have revealed more about our group diversity than anything about Bill Watrous. That's not a criticism. That's an observation.

[tbdana]

Giving “Bill Watrous a bad rap” may be argumentative and assumes a fact not in evidence.

Do we have a trombone lawyer in the group? LOL!

Your Honor, obviously I am permitted to be argumentative in argument, and I submit that the very posts in this thread as compared with those in threads about other players constitute evidence that Watrous is analyzed and parsed and criticized in this forum in a manner that other trombonists generally are not. Every trombonist makes their choices, and every member likes different things, yet we do not see the kinds of comments about other players similarly critical of their choices.

Thank you. The prosecution rests.

I had to analyze the first movement of Bartok’s “Concerto for Orchestra.” ... I cannot claim to understand it it or replicate Bartok’s technique. Maybe I need to listen more to Bill Watrous. I doubt if I ever approach his technical ability.

Objection: lacks foundation, calls for speculation, calls for expert opinion. Besides, my head is spinning trying to figure out what heck this means!

[tbdana]

It appears to me that we have revealed more about our group diversity than anything about Bill Watrous. That's not a criticism. That's an observation.

Amen. Viva la difference!

[tbdana]

On Watrous playing into mics: Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism. What I do agree with is that when playing live Watrous tended to bury the mic so far in his bell that it couldn't reproduce his tone, and often sounded stuffy or muddy. But in a recording studio or stage where someone else controlled the mic placement, or when he didn't swallow the mic, he had a rich, fabulous sound.

On Watrous playing softly: This is for sure where "choices" come into play. You simply cannot play the way he did by playing loud. I've tried. LOL! The flexibility falters, the doodle-tonguing loses fluidity and starts to sound like a machine gun, and the vocal approach is destroyed. It's a choice, yes, because you have to decide what it is you want to do, and make compromises to get there. As has been noted a couple times, Watrous could blast away with the best of 'em as a section player, but when he was doing his own solo thing he chose not to. Unlike so many trombonists who try to be all things (I'm guilty of this), Bill carved out his own identity, his own sound that was all his. That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal.

On not liking Watrous' "choices": That's cool. We all have our preferences, and that's what makes the world go 'round. But I guess the reason I asked the question to begin with is that you don't see comments or threads on this forum criticizing the choices Frank Rosolino made, for instance. Talk about a guy who sacrificed a lot to find his unique identity, Rosolino is the poster child for that. Yet exactly zero posts have criticized those choices. I think Watrous gets singled out for criticism the way LeBron James is constantly singled out despite being one of the best basketball players in history. In fact, now that I think about it, that Watrous/LeBron comparison is pretty apt, in terms of the critical social media comments they inspire.

On Watrous' "flash" over subtlety: Yeah, that's a criticism I share. Bill thought of jazz like a competitive athletic event, not as artistic expression. He wanted to "smoke" (i.e., play more impressively than) every soloist. When trading 8s with, say, Fontana, if Fontana played a high note, Bill had to play a higher one. If Fontana ripped off a fast passage, Watrous had to rip off a faster one. I think that tendency was a double-edged sword for him. It made his stuff less artistic, but it's also what drove him to become so freaking good at playing the twisted tube.

One thing I did love about Watrous is that, as ithinknot alluded to, he approached playing like a vocalist -- like a "crooner," as ithinknot observed. Boy, do I think that's true, and I think it's a really good approach to playing, in terms of air flow, control, consistency, and artistry. This is one reason why I think Watrous was such a great ballad player: he played ballads like a singer. I used to think that Watrous and Nat King Cole had an almost identical approach to ballads.

Finally, if you only heard Watrous in his later years, criticism would be well deserved. Bill fell off a cliff, playing-wise, after suffering cancer and a stroke. I'm amazed he ever came back from the stroke. The last time I was with him in person was a gig at The Jazz Bakery shortly after his stroke (around 2006 I think). It was very sad watching him struggle. But he was up there giving it everything he could, and you could still hear flashes of who he used to be. He never quit after that, but he never came all the way back, either.

[jacobgarchik]

Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism.

What do you mean? on gigs? many don't use mics on gigs.
It is true that there are a wide variety of players who use mics as integral to their style. Curtis Fuller to Watrous is a great example - they are nearly stylistic opposites.

As to who has gotten criticism here, this was a thread about Roswell Rudd.

viewtopic.php?t=21614

Most of my complaints about Watrous I also have about Fontana. But I haven't done a thread. I know many people, including players I admire, love his playing. That's fine with me!

[EriKon]

Finally, if you only heard Watrous in his later years, criticism would be well deserved. Bill fell off a cliff, playing-wise, after suffering cancer and a stroke. I'm amazed he ever came back from the stroke. The last time I was with him in person was a gig at The Jazz Bakery shortly after his stroke (around 2006 I think). It was very sad watching him struggle. But he was up there giving it everything he could, and you could still hear flashes of who he used to be. He never quit after that, but he never came all the way back, either.

But where do you see that criticism? I don't see it. No one says, he can't play, he has no sound, he has no creative or musical relevant ideas. No one's saying that

[harrisonreed]

On Watrous playing into mics: Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism. What I do agree with is that when playing live Watrous tended to bury the mic so far in his bell that it couldn't reproduce his tone, and often sounded stuffy or muddy. But in a recording studio or stage where someone else controlled the mic placement, or when he didn't swallow the mic, he had a rich, fabulous sound.

So you do get the criticism, if it even is one. There is a big difference that you get in a live situation of the dynamic mic being even 12" away vs 1" or especially inside the bell.

I bet in the studio they put a ribbon out a few feet in front of him. Night and day.

I would argue that having the mic so close for him in a live setting allowed him to do technical feats on the trombone that wouldn't be heard by an audience if it wasn't miked that way. So, far from a blanket criticism, that technique was a part of his style. In a studio, you separate him acoustically, slap a much better mic a little further away on the guy, and then he can play the way he wants and you can have a clean audio track to EQ with a more accurate image of his sound.

[tbdana]

But where do you see that criticism? I don't see it. No one says, he can't play, he has no sound, he has no creative or musical relevant ideas. No one's saying that

You hear them say, "Yeah, he's a good technician, BUT..." he has no creativity, no good ideas, he can't play loud, he's too flashy, plays too soft, plays only into a mic where he has a terrible sound, etc., etc., etc. Like they say, ignore everything before the "but," and you're left with a boatload of criticism. Criticism that, to me, is like saying, "Yeah, he speaks English well, BUT he can't even speak French."

You have to meet someone where they are. But with Watrous, lots of folks don't. No one says, "Well, Rosolino is good, but all he ever plays are turns, and he clams a lot of notes, and his tone suffers, and his pitch often goes wonky, and-and-and...." They don't. They meet Frank where he is, and acknowledge the greatness of the things that make him him, whether he's their favorite kind of player or not. No one criticizes him for the choices he has made.

But for some reason they do with Watrous. Something about him seems to be polarizing in a way I don't see here with other great players. I mean, compare what you read on this forum about Watrous to what you read about, say, Doug Elliot, as an obvious (and unfair) example. Do you see the kind of criticism of Doug that you do Watrous? Nope. Not even a bit. I use Doug as an example (sorry Doug!) because it's so obvious, but it still applies to what's written here about, e.g., Urbie Green, Dick Nash, Alan Kaplan, Rosolino, Andy Martin, Bob McChesney, and even guys in other genres like Christian Lindberg (now there's a guy who should be polarizing!) and Joe Alessi.

It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived and felt like starting a thread about it, which was a really stupid idea (in a long line of stupid ideas that I've acted on in my life ).

[Mr412]

...It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived...

There is the essence right there!

Perhaps a lot of us could sub another player's name in for Bill Watrous for the very same reasons. I know I could.

[Burgerbob]

Can we do Alessi next??

[Mr412]

IMHO Joe Alessi is one of the finest trombonists ever. And he moved the instrument forward in his idiom. When The New York Philharmonic hired him, no one was playing like Joe. Today, lots of players can do stuff that was unheard of back in the 1970s, and it's because of Joe. And I don't think a trombonist has ever lived who could play the classics better than Alessi.

I'm biased because I am an admirer, but I don't get why he gets such harsh treatment here from some.

[Burgerbob]

Again, it's down to choices... I really don't like some of the choices he makes, even if he is obviously one of the better orchestral/soloist players out there. Just like we have concluded about Bill.

[Doug Elliott]

"That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal."

Fwiw, Rosolino told me exactly the same thing, that he only got called to do solos, when he was perfectly capable of doing regular sessions.

[WGWTR180]

Variety is the spice of life. Someone said that. The first famous professional trombonist I ever heard live was Watrous. Blew me away. I was in my first year of college in 1979. In January of 1980 I played in a concert with Slide Hampton with the college trombone choir. Also blew my mind! Completely different everything yet both completely amazing. We all gravitate to someone as our favorite-it's natural. Taking them all in and learning from all without being overly critical makes one a better player and musician in my opinion. Choices? We all make choices based on what we are experiencing and viewing in the moment. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes not. I think many spend too much time focusing on 1 individual at times. Is Joe Alessi possibly the post popular trombonist at the moment? I guess he is. He's made choices that some might agree with and others not. But there are so many other "orchestral players" that are also incredible that one might gravitate to. And if that's what you dig then good for you. Many here on The Chat would love to have made some of the choices that Watrous made at the time. But first you have to be that good.

[jacobgarchik]

"That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal."

Fwiw, Rosolino told me exactly the same thing, that he only got called to do solos, when he was perfectly capable of doing regular sessions.

this is all pretty wild...according to discogs Watrous is on 300 records. How many did he want to be on?
So...he was unhappy at being pigeonholed as a star soloist and wanted to do more section work? Lol being called as the star soloist is like the dream of every jazz musician.
Rosolino is listed on 700...I'm assuming some of that is compilations.

Anyway speaking of who gets "a bad rap" I'm gonna leave this hear for thought...this is from a Steve Turre interview from Javier Nero's dissertation on multiple tonguing.

Why do you think that teaching double and triple tonguing in jazz studies programs is not stressed as much as the doodle tongue technique?

ST: Well, it depends on where you are talking about...the red state schools? I'm being serious! The schools in the red states, mid-west, Florida, they stress doodle tonguing. They ain't going to acknowledge J.J. Carl Fontana couldn't play half as fast as Curtis Fuller and he has a shitty sound, I'll put it on the record. He has a
nice flow, he flows and that's something to be admired, but that's like minor league baseball and major league, and I really think it is a racial thing personally.
JN: That is interesting to hear that.
ST: Well you know when I look at who is really into it, unless they grew up in a white area and were taught by those kind of teachers in our culture, real jazz is African oriented. Who did Carl Fontana play with? Any black musicians? Nope, not a one, Frank Rosolino did a record with Sunny Stitt did you know that?
JN: I did not know that. I would like to hear that.
ST: Yeah, he grew up in Detroit. It's a black town, and a real jazz town, too.
ST: Yeah, syncopated. If you do them all the same, it don't mean nothing. Dizzy taught me that. It's like the hand drums, African drums. The tongue is your hand or the stick of the drum, if you play everything the same it’s boring rhythmically, you know? If you top that off with not having an open, warm, resonate sound... next! [laughs]

[Doug Elliott]

Hmmmm... I very muh appreciate Steve Turre and all that he has done, but I don't know about that one.

[Bach5G]

“It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived and felt like starting a thread about it, which was a really stupid idea (in a long line of stupid ideas that I've acted on in my life ).”

I think this is a brilliant topic and FWIW I think you’re right. Watrous is held to a higher standard and attracts more than his fair share of criticism.

[jacobgarchik]

There is a pretty clear preference among many of the J.J. Johnson disciples to reject Fontana and his influence and therefore Watrous and his ilk.

It's not universal - witness Slide Hampton who I'm assuming dug Watrous judging by the records they did together.

In Javier nero's dissertation, he also interviews Andre Hayward and Ron Westray and they both mention Watrous positively.

But to many others Fontana/Watrous style is a rejection of J.J. style clarity/precision/economy/swing feel.

Of course reality is more complex than just two distinct schools of playing but i have found this holds true pretty well.

[djkennedy]

Hello
On Valentine’s Day
This A wonderful song
I love listening to it
It’s about love
Many times it’s the love s
In the Players who give this
Melody it’s wonderful feeling
And deep emotional being
In the moments of playing
What is on their mind
Please play Valentine’s Day for
Someone you love
Listen to Valentine’s Day
Played by someone you
And try to play b it liy

[baileyman]

...
according to discogs ... Rosolino is listed on 700...I'm assuming some of that is compilations.

Anyway speaking of who gets "a bad rap" I'm gonna leave this hear for thought...this is from a Steve Turre interview from Javier Nero's dissertation on multiple tonguing.

...

Someone here may correct me, but Frank was basically complaining he didn't get the money sessions. The trombone studio clique at the time excluded him. His 700 dates didn't make the living.

Funny, I never ever listen to Steve, except when he passes by, and I admire his sound. It's sometimes remarkably like Carl's on a ballad, though Steve is a pretty strong uh and Carl mostly an ooo. I don't know who Collie Fontana's clientele was in Monroe, certainly the Italian American community but probably wider. Today the city is 63% black, so that's a lot of market to avoid. (You know what, we have on here Zemry, who's dad was in high school with Carl in the band and they were friends. Maybe he knows something about how the musicians mixed in the early 40s.) But by the time Carl got to Baton Rouge, there was vigorous gigging and cross-talk between LSU and Southern and the pros. I'll ask an old friend if the Lee Fortier Bebop Big Band had any black players. I'll bet it did. In a small market you don't get to exclude people and still fill your sections. And Lee was not that kind of guy. I don't think he saw any difference between people except how they played. Mose was in that band. Brew Moore. And if 1950 was like 1980, the real jazz gigs were private hires by black contractors on the north side of town. Below Florida Blvd was just too square. And I guess for Steve, Plas Johnson just doesn't count as people to play with. Maybe there's something in there. Plas had a song in his heart. He would pick up his cold horn and melody flowed out, new melody, endless melody.

Carl was wrestling with the tempos being played in bebop around 1948. He said, "I greatly admired the young JJ, because he was hanging out with some fast company, and he showed it could be done on a trombone". The fast tempos led him to hide in a practice room at the LSU School of Music and invent what he called doodle tonguing. Double or triple was out for him because he couldn't "get a good legato sound". I don't think he ever found out that JJ had been doodling. Doesn't seem like Steve ever knew either. Funny that, JJ's doodle came no where close to exploiting its rhythmic possibilities (proof left as an exercise for the reader). Curtis' da-ga was a pretty colorless machine gun affair by comparison, with limited rhythmic pallet. It seems he would find a fluid slide pattern to exploit and then run it into the ground. (That's easy to understand, though, as fluid paths are relatively few.) It's hard to imagine what Steve is thinking about. Curtis never seems to have caught on to the use of half-step tensions for color, fluidity and rhythm, which could have really opened him up. Carl could single tongue all day at 120, and doodle double time, so I'd like to hear the reference for Curtis' speed Steve is thinking about. But it's not the speed so much as the sense of the notes and their beauty at transcribing speed. Oh man.

So, I'm catching some Steve vid right now. Maybe he's saying "Carl made artistic choices I wouldn't make"? Carl chose to play "pretty songs", which I think generally mean from the extended songbook, with strong melodies. Steve seems fine with things with little melodic content and styles in a more New York tradition. To each his own. I would rather like to have seen something like Steve going toe to toe with Captain Kutcha. He could then clarify his position.

[harrisonreed]

Can we do Alessi next??

Which version? He hasn't sounded the same his whole career!

[Burgerbob]

Can we do Alessi next??

Which version? He hasn't sounded the same his whole career!

Very true. I do prefer some old school Joe to his current incarnation

[GGJazz]

Hello all.

Personally , I am a J. J. Johnson fan , as well as a Slide Hampton and Frank Rosolino fan .
However , I like a lot Bill Watrous' playing .As Urbie Green' , Jack Jenney' , Tommy Dorsey' playing .

I think that one can appreciate or not BW ; of course it is matter of personal taste . That is perfectly fine . Anyway , I think that a trombone player who criticize him , have to be really brave ..

Being that I am not a native-english speaker , I would like to ask a question about the Steve Turre interwiew , because I am not sure to fully understood it .
He is saying that Doodle tonguing is an articolation choosen by musicians that do not acknowledge J. J. Johnson ?
This sound strange to me , because Slide Hampton was using that articolation too ( not in his early carreer) . I know this because I had a couple of lessons with him ( back in 1995 , when he was playing for a week in Rome) , and he showed me how to learn it .
Slide Hampton was a truly fan of J. J . , and he was a musician of the black community Steve Turre was talking about , and played with all the giants ( Dexter Gordon , Dizzy Gillespie , etc ) .

@JacobGarchik : in your essay , posted ( aug 08/2021) on the thread "WTF" ( Musicians section ,aug 08 2021) you wrote : 《......J. J. solution to this problem was to have an elegant style based on restraint , clarity , motivic development , an unprecedent technique , and when he needed it , a set of bebop "SNAKES" tailored to the trombone....》.
With the word SNAKES do you means some pre-packaged licks ?
I hope I have misunderstood ; If not , I think that you are pretty unfear concerning J. J. and his musical essence ...

@ Tbdana : you open this thread about BW , but on the thread "Why do trombonist suck at improvising" (Performance section jan 18/2021) you wrote ( page 5 , may 02/2023) : 《Bill Watrous was not a good Jazz player. Great technician , had big ears , and a great Jazz vocabulary , but he played the trombone , as opposed to play music . I never felt like he was much of an improvisational artist 》 .

I think you was a bit reductive about BW way of soloing . I personally like it .

Regards
Giancarlo

[ithinknot]

I think a lot of the racial/proprietary/"African oriented"/"JJ rejection" angles only really present themselves if you assume that people who like Watrous think he was the Official Height of Jazz... and do they?

Now, not Downbeat/"Jazz Reader's Digest" respondents in 197x.

Isn't it, and wasn't it, somewhere between Nat King Cole and playing "the Maynard role" an octave down?

Patrick Williams, Johnny Mandel, small group Streisand covers... I'm not sure there was really that much misrepresentation going on.

[ithinknot]

Hmmmm... I very muh appreciate Steve Turre and all that he has done, but I don't know about that one.

Maybe not all ...as we're "leaving things here for thought": https://medium.com/@kaliamariev/token-girl-564457c86f13

(KV is very much worth a listen, too, if anyone isn't familiar)

[OneTon]

“ “

[Fidbone]

Jimmy Cleveland doesn’t get a mention much, wasn’t he a purveyor of the doodle tongue?

Others that keep up with break neck speeds that don’t really use doodle tongue and play at all dynamics are Mark Nightingale, Marshall Gilkes and Elliot Mason.

[jacobgarchik]

Hello all.


@JacobGarchik : in your essay , posted ( aug 08/2021) on the thread "WTF" ( Musicians section ,aug 08 2021) you wrote : 《......J. J. solution to this problem was to have an elegant style based on restraint , clarity , motivic development , an unprecedent technique , and when he needed it , a set of bebop "SNAKES" tailored to the trombone....》.
With the word SNAKES do you means some pre-packaged licks ?
I hope I have misunderstood ; If not , I think that you are pretty unfear concerning J. J. and his musical essence ...

No, by snakes, I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.

re: tonguing, many musicians in different styles have chosen different techniques...J.J. said he also doodle-tongued. Carl Fontana did not "invent" doodle tonguing. I think there was another thread here where someone said that it appears in baroque recorder method books.
Steve Turre is not making a blanket statement about those who chose one technique or another. On the second syllable the "L" tongue shape obstructs the air cavity, but this can be overcome with practice or incorporated into the style.