Review: Brad Close 32H leadpipe in King 3B

[Burgerbob]

A while back I inquired here as to the best replacement out there for the stock, two piece 3B leadpipe. As we know, the 3B is a great horn, but is saddled with this strange two piece leadpipe that makes it a bit stuffer than a good 2B (that is not hyperbole!). I liked my horn quite a lot, but I could tell there was room for improvement.

I went to Brad and got a 32H reproduction leadpipe, which I later had soldered in by John Sandhagen.

Having used it quite a lot since then, I have these thoughts:

If you have a 3B but you end up fighting it sometimes, or the response seems uneven, or you use a bit larger mouthpiece (I use a 6.5AL), or many other things: this may just be your ticket to a horn you want to keep.

It's not immensely more open, but it is in a way that lets the horn respond in a more natural way. As someone that plays Bachs primarily, the one piece leadpipe just makes it more predictable. Loud playing now seems much more linear in all ranges. Flexibility is easier for me, since I'm not fighting any stuffiness.

The sound is really great... I love the really basic sound and articulation the 3B can offer, and this leadpipe just gets me there with less effort.

Having played many other horns recently, I can't say any have really tempted me away from this setup.

[tbonesullivan]

I had the same issue with my 3B and a 6 1/2AL. I went to a 6 3/4C and it definitely solved problems. That stock leadpipe does not do well with more open mouthpieces, from my experience. It was probably designed around people using 7C and 11C size pieces.

Did the 3B ever have the one piece leadpipe like the 2B used to, or did it always have a two piece? I wonder if they just used the same 2 piece leadpipe as the 2B, just longer.

[brassmedic]

Glad you like it! If memory serves, I measured a 3B leadpipe vs. a 2B leadpipe, and the 3B pipe was actually tighter. I don't know if they are trying to compensate for the larger bore by having a smaller leadpipe, but it did seem strange to me how tight the stock pipe is.

[brtnats]

I got one of these too in seamed copper for my Yamaha 891Z. The horn came with 2 removable leadpipes: One was shorter with a more open, wider blow and one was longer with a very centered, “locked-in” feel. I liked both the stock pipes, but I was unhappy with how the instrument felt “stuck” in one of those modes of playing. I often found myself changing leadpipes for Dixieland, rock, church, and quieter mic work.

Brad’s pipe is an interesting middle ground. It’s not too open, not too tight, and not resistant to stylistic change. The horn just blows better in all contexts, and I’m able to get the kind of sound I‘m looking for with little fight. I do think the copper makes noticeable difference in the horn’s sound. It sounds more present and direct in recording, and my spectroscope shows that the overtones on the copper pipe are a lot more complicated than the stock brass pipes. It’s a more complex, more dense sound.

The only 2 negatives I can think of are the lead-time and the fit. I wish I’d paid the extra dough and gotten a threaded collar instead of press-fit, because the press-fit has a lot of wiggle in the horn. Teflon tape fixes that, but I wish I’d just gotten the collar instead. The wait time is also pretty long, which you have to expect from a hand-made item. I didn’t have good responses from Brassark, but when I contacted Brad directly he gave me an immediate update.

[Burgerbob]

The only 2 negatives I can think of are the lead-time and the fit. I wish I’d paid the extra dough and gotten a threaded collar instead of press-fit, because the press-fit has a lot of wiggle in the horn. Teflon tape fixes that, but I wish I’d just gotten the collar instead.

This is why I just had my soldered, it was pretty loose as well.

[Kingfan]

I had the same issue with my 3B and a 6 1/2AL. I went to a 6 3/4C and it definitely solved problems. That stock leadpipe does not do well with more open mouthpieces, from my experience. It was probably designed around people using 7C and 11C size pieces.

Having tried a 7C in my 2B and 3B and finding a lot of backpressure, then trying 11C and smaller with even worse results, I ended up with a Bach 5. There are exceptions to every rule.

[brassmedic]

If you have a pipe that I made you can certainly send it to me to have a screw ring installed. Trombone makers have used various ways to make pipes fit tightly at the receiver end: 2 piece pipes, changing the mouthpiece insertion depth, proprietary mouthpiece shank sizes, using heavier gage metal. These things all change the way the leadpipe plays though, which is why I don't do those things. Teflon tape works great if you just can't stand a little wobble at the receiver.

[Burgerbob]

I had the same issue with my 3B and a 6 1/2AL. I went to a 6 3/4C and it definitely solved problems. That stock leadpipe does not do well with more open mouthpieces, from my experience. It was probably designed around people using 7C and 11C size pieces.

Having tried a 7C in my 2B and 3B and finding a lot of backpressure, then trying 11C and smaller with even worse results, I ended up with a Bach 5. There are exceptions to every rule.

The no letter Bachs (like the 5) have smaller throats than most C cup mouthpieces.

[ngrinder]

I've got the .500 version and love it. I've owned it for a few years and keep coming back. I'm constantly impressed how warm yet nimble the sound is, attacks are super clear and I don't feel slogged down. Bravo Brad.

[Kingfan]

Having tried a 7C in my 2B and 3B and finding a lot of backpressure, then trying 11C and smaller with even worse results, I ended up with a Bach 5. There are exceptions to every rule.

The no letter Bachs (like the 5) have smaller throats than most C cup mouthpieces.

The research I did showed the Bach 5 to have a .230 throat and 402 back bore, same as most C mouthpieces. http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/trom ... &compare=0 . This one lists the same rim, cup, throat, and backbore for a 7 and a 7C. For that matter, it shows the same throat and backbore for all mouthpieces number 7 thru 22, no letter and C models. Exceptions are megatones. I am confused... Is there a better spec chart?

[Burgerbob]

The no letter Bachs (like the 5) have smaller throats than most C cup mouthpieces.

The research I did showed the Bach 5 to have a .230 throat and 402 back bore, same as most C mouthpieces. http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/trom ... &compare=0 . This one lists the same rim, cup, throat, and backbore for a 7 and a 7C. For that matter, it shows the same throat and backbore for all mouthpieces number 7 thru 22, no letter and C models. Exceptions are megatones. I am confused... Is there a better spec chart?

Hmm, you may be right. My 4C and 5 look identical there.

[Gatt]

I believe the Bach without a letter has a bit deeper cup than the C.

[Burgerbob]

I believe the Bach without a letter has a bit deeper cup than the C.

They do, yes.

I think that the throat/cup combination on them seems a little off to me- the C cups seem just right as is, and the 6 1/2AL and G cups (which are closer to the no-letter mouthpieces) feel great with the larger throats.

The smaller throat but deeper cup just seems to back up on me in a way the other pieces don't. But then again, I haven't used any of mine in a bit (I have a 3, 4, 5, 6, and two 7s!).

[bassclef]

Did the 3B ever have the one piece leadpipe like the 2B used to, or did it always have a two piece? I wonder if they just used the same 2 piece leadpipe as the 2B, just longer.

I don't know when they started with the 2-piece, but I have a 1961 H.N. White 3B that definitely has the traditional style 1-piece.

[Burgerbob]

Did the 3B ever have the one piece leadpipe like the 2B used to, or did it always have a two piece? I wonder if they just used the same 2 piece leadpipe as the 2B, just longer.

I don't know when they started with the 2-piece, but I have a 1961 H.N. White 3B that definitely has the traditional style 1-piece.

Perhaps just post H.N. White? I seem to remember someone giving a date for that change, maybe on TTF.

[Burgerbob]

I should also say... there's nothing wrong with a great stock 3B. The two piece leadpipe can definitely work.

[bassclef]

Perhaps just post H.N. White? I seem to remember someone giving a date for that change, maybe on TTF.

I remember that also, but not what the date was. The acquisition by UMI and/or the following move to the Eastlake plant could have been it.

[imsevimse]

As somone said earlier the Brad Close 32H leadpipe is a very good fit with a Yamaha 891Z. Even better with the Yamaha 892ZX. The reason I decided to buy the 892ZX I had on try was when I put the threaded 32h leadpip in the reciever. The Yamaha 891Z/982XZ horn is a good horn with any if the original pipes, but it definitely gets more colors with the 32h pipe and is absolutely my choice on the 892XZ when playing classical music. I have used it in trombone quartets and in brass quartet and it gives good colors. I have one that fits my Kanstul 1606 too

/Tom

[Burgerbob]

Perhaps just post H.N. White? I seem to remember someone giving a date for that change, maybe on TTF.

I remember that also, but not what the date was. The acquisition by UMI and/or the following move to the Eastlake plant could have been it.

My friend just bought a '70s loopy engraving 3B concert (same age as my SS). It has a single piece leadpipe. Looks stock, to my eyes anyway. It's one of the best 3Bs I've ever played.

[brassmedic]

FYI, I measured some King leadpipes. A 2B 2-piece leadpipe is .410 venturi, which is the same venturi size as the 1-piece 1938 pipe I copied for the model I make. A 3B 2-piece leadpipe is .380, so MUCH smaller than a 2B pipe. I don't have a 1-piece 3B pipe to measure.

[Bach5G]

I bought one of these, expanded slightly to .509, for a Bach 16 slide I use with a deBruycker bell. Nice.

[Burgerbob]

FYI, I measured some King leadpipes. A 2B 2-piece leadpipe is .410 venturi, which is the same venturi size as the 1-piece 1938 pipe I copied for the model I make. A 3B 2-piece leadpipe is .380, so MUCH smaller than a 2B pipe. I don't have a 1-piece 3B pipe to measure.

Even eyeballing it with no reference, the 3B pipe looks minuscule.

[Rusty]

I have a 3bf silversonic Anniversary model bell section matched with a 60s slide. I also own a press fit 32h copper .508 press fit pipe. I think this 3b slide is very good and has been matched by the previous owner to work much better with the bell section.

Do you think it’s worth having the leadpipe pulled to try the 32h pipe or am I risking ruining a great slide of the original pipe can’t be saved?

[Burgerbob]

I have a 3bf silversonic Anniversary model bell section matched with a 60s slide. I also own a press fit 32h copper .508 press fit pipe. I think this 3b slide is very good and has been matched by the previous owner to work much better with the bell section.

Do you think it’s worth having the leadpipe pulled to try the 32h pipe or am I risking ruining a great slide of the original pipe can’t be saved?

The "60s slide may have a one-piece leadpipe already. My friend just bought one as such, and it honestly plays better than my horn all around. Unless you're really dissatisfied with some part of it, keep it as is.

[Rusty]

I have a 3bf silversonic Anniversary model bell section matched with a 60s slide. I also own a press fit 32h copper .508 press fit pipe. I think this 3b slide is very good and has been matched by the previous owner to work much better with the bell section.

Do you think it’s worth having the leadpipe pulled to try the 32h pipe or am I risking ruining a great slide of the original pipe can’t be saved?

The "60s slide may have a one-piece leadpipe already. My friend just bought one as such, and it honestly plays better than my horn all around. Unless you're really dissatisfied with some part of it, keep it as is.

Okay, thanks, yeah I was tending to think that would be smarter thing to do. This horn plays so much better than my 70s silversonic I used to have, that had a stuffy upper register whereas this is super open up there and feels easy. Using a MV 6.5a. I’m also thinking about how another bell section would go with it (maybe for another thread).

Just checked the serial number again, slide looks to be mid to late 50s!

[Basie1955]

So...the 32H Brad pipe is available for .500 & .508? I have a brass .500 but didn't know about the larger size

[Rusty]

So...the 32H Brad pipe is available for .500 & .508? I have a brass .500 but didn't know about the larger size

Yup, from the BrassArk website “ .508" trombone leadpipes:
-We made a variation on our 32H but hand form it to .508" size. The results have been very impressive. This is a special order custom pipe, +$40 email to order this special pipe IN PRODUCTION”

[FullPedalTrombonist]

So...the 32H Brad pipe is available for .500 & .508? I have a brass .500 but didn't know about the larger size

I asked Noah Gladstone about a .495 version and that can be done as well. Now that I’ve sold one of the horns I was going to have some work done on I don’t need to order that pipe. I’m afraid if I ask if a even smaller .485 pipe is possible to fit to my main lead horn it won’t be possible.

This is by far the hottest item I can think of when it comes to upgrades or aftermarket products. It has me thinking about having a .500 slide made or finding a 6H or a 16M I like again

[Gfactor]

FYI, I measured some King leadpipes. A 2B 2-piece leadpipe is .410 venturi, which is the same venturi size as the 1-piece 1938 pipe I copied for the model I make. A 3B 2-piece leadpipe is .380, so MUCH smaller than a 2B pipe. I don't have a 1-piece 3B pipe to measure.

I’m interested in one of your leadpipes for my Yamaha 891Z. What is the size of the Venturi in these please?

[brassmedic]

FYI, I measured some King leadpipes. A 2B 2-piece leadpipe is .410 venturi, which is the same venturi size as the 1-piece 1938 pipe I copied for the model I make. A 3B 2-piece leadpipe is .380, so MUCH smaller than a 2B pipe. I don't have a 1-piece 3B pipe to measure.

I’m interested in one of your leadpipes for my Yamaha 891Z. What is the size of the Venturi in these please?

The 32H copy is .410 venturi.

[pbone3b]

I bought a 3b slide here recently mainly because it had been fitted with a copper 32h BrassArk .508 pipe. I liked it right away, and after a month or so, I remembered this thread, and the discussion about how much better a 3b can be using longer pipe/bigger mouthpiece. So I dug out some Elliot LT stuff, D cup, 102 rim, D3 shank, and wow! This bigger MP would have gotten lost on my standard 3b but felt great on the 32h pipe.

[harrisonreed]

Sorry to drag this topic up again, Aidan, but since you've got a photo of that leadpipe -- how does the upper tube work with that? Is it shorter than normal? Is the one thick piece needed to keep the upper tube in place? If so what did the tech do to secure the upper tube?

[Burgerbob]

Sorry to drag this topic up again, Aidan, but since you've got a photo of that leadpipe -- how does the upper tube work with that? Is it shorter than normal? Is the one thick piece needed to keep the upper tube in place? If so what did the tech do to secure the upper tube?

3B tubes are normal-ish, as far as I know. There was no extra work needed. On the intermediate horns the two-piece leadpipe is part of the slide assembly, not on these though.

[harrisonreed]

Sorry to drag this topic up again, Aidan, but since you've got a photo of that leadpipe -- how does the upper tube work with that? Is it shorter than normal? Is the one thick piece needed to keep the upper tube in place? If so what did the tech do to secure the upper tube?

3B tubes are normal-ish, as far as I know. There was no extra work needed. On the intermediate horns the two-piece leadpipe is part of the slide assembly, not on these though.

Okay, wow, thanks! I appreciate it

[ithinknot]

Sorry to drag this topic up again, Aidan, but since you've got a photo of that leadpipe -- how does the upper tube work with that? Is it shorter than normal? Is the one thick piece needed to keep the upper tube in place? If so what did the tech do to secure the upper tube?

Looking at the receiver part: narrow top ring is visible from outside. Next ring down is the same OD as the inner tube. The remainder is .508 OD and lives inside the inner tube. That middle ring is soldered into the cork barrel, and then below it roughly the same distance of inner tube is also in contact with the barrel. Basically 1/2" of contact inside the barrel, of which half is receiver and half is inner tube. If you replace the whole lot for use with pushfit pipes it makes sense to use a longer lower inner and have it soldered over the whole available barrel length. (It's also much easier to solder, as the excess length means you can draw solder from the outside without getting it inside the inner tube, and then just cut off the overhang afterwards.)

If you're thinking about your 3BFSS, it might be old enough to have the one piece leadpipe, in which case there's no extra ring visible from outside. (There's still the little engraved ring around the edge of the cork barrel, but that's not it.)

Either way, because King parts are available and relatively inexpensive, and because the 1pc pipe is irreplaceable and the 2pc is a PITA to remove, just get a lower inner and a new cork barrel (comes with the slide lock). That way you can swap new and old with a single solder joint (i.e. realigning the inner grip).

Hope that makes sense; if not, I'll bust out the crayons.

[BarryDaniels]

A cross sectional drawing would really help me understand the layout of the various parts, if that is not too much trouble. I have some upcoming projects on a 3B that I need to understand better. Thanks