Need some help with a new Mouthpiece

[frankgalante]

Hello, yesterday i bought a new mouthpiece from Warburton, i went to their store but i wasn't able to try the moutbpiece with an intrument. I tried it plain and it felt good, i took it I bought a 12S top with a T3 Backbore. I regulary play a Bach 7C and feel like i need a little bit more room.
Today i tried this mouthpiece with a King 606 and felt horrible, very small sound, my tounge vibrated, my endurance dropped, my lips were swollen, high register felt the same, and felt very hard to articulate fast at loud volumes.
I dont know if it was too shallow or too small or maybe the backbore is larger than bachs, but it didnt felt good that's what i know, it felt like i need to put a lot of air to make it work.
I play a ysl354.500 bore and i play lead on my jazz band.
I need some advice please, to point into the right direction or what should i change of this warburton.
Maybe a 11M?

One important thing i forgot to mention ia that, regardless the shallow cup, i ve noticed that pedals and low notes come very easy on this mouthpiece, and high notes take more effort to slot, also i got a lot of backpressure when playing, and it was very difficult to play soft, i don't know if its got to do with the backbore or cup?
Also i felt with the 12S cup (24.84mm) that transitions from low partials to high took me a lot of lot of mouthpiece shift on my face almost touching my nose.

Edit: Doug Elliot Suggested me a LT SERIES N101 C+ D2 , although i dont know if that mouthpiece would fit a jazz small bore for lead playing. It seems to be too large of rim for lead playing.
What would be a Warburton equivalent?

Thank you

[Nolankberk]

Afaik smaller rim does not equal higher notes

[harrisonreed]

You bought an alto trombone mouthpiece. I would return it.

The DE C+ cup is great for lead playing. The rim he suggested might give you the room you need to *not* shift as much going into the upper register.

[JeffBone44]

When I played lead I used an XT104.C+.D2. Larger rims can work well for many people. My endurance was actually better with that than with a regular small bore mouthpiece, while keeping the same range.

[harrisonreed]

I'm reading your post again and thought about it a bit. I don't know your playing, but you mentioned the mouthpiece going up towards your nose to ascend and that it is touching your nose, which suggests that you are a high placement, downstream type embouchure. This sometimes means that you can benefit from a wider inner rim/cup diameter. I am a downstream type and I use the Doug Elliott N106 rim, or similarly wide rims in that ballpark. The "N" rim is beneficial for high placement because you can get a wider inner diameter without it pushing up on your nose.

So again, Doug is probably right on the money. An N101 is a wider ID than the 7C you usually play, which would go along with the embouchure type he likely assessed. The "N" means that it will have a similar or even more narrow *outer* diameter (OD) than the 7C, to help prevent it from touching your nose, or to at least allow an even higher placement.

The C+ cup is something I have used on lead bone in a few different big bands, and Doug's small bore backbores are the best I've tried for small tenor. I wouldn't use something shallower than that because lead bone is really not *just* playing high. You need to have a clear sound in the whole register.

The Warburton "S" cup is specifically marketed for alto trombone and "unusual high register playing", a completely different thing altogether from lead bone playing. I would definitely ask for a return on that one if you only just bought it, and check out the C+/D2 combo that Doug suggested. If you absolutely were stuck on keeping the "S" cup, I would pair it with the most open throat that Warburton offers that mates to that cup, to help you put out sound and project. I don't know if they offer a shank with an open throat but balanced/tightish backbore.

[Kingfan]

I had trouble finding a mouthpiece that worked for me on small bore lead parts until I got advice from Doug to borrow a Bach 5. Conventional wisdom says it wouldn't work for lead bone in a big band, but it did for me. I now play one of his combos similar to that.

[frankgalante]

I'm reading your post again and thought about it a bit. I don't know your playing, but you mentioned the mouthpiece going up towards your nose to ascend and that it is touching your nose, which suggests that you are a high placement, downstream type embouchure. This sometimes means that you can benefit from a wider inner rim/cup diameter. I am a downstream type and I use the Doug Elliott N106 rim, or similarly wide rims in that ballpark. The "N" rim is beneficial for high placement because you can get a wider inner diameter without it pushing up on your nose.

So again, Doug is probably right on the money. An N101 is a wider ID than the 7C you usually play, which would go along with the embouchure type he likely assessed. The "N" means that it will have a similar or even more narrow *outer* diameter (OD) than the 7C, to help prevent it from touching your nose, or to at least allow an even higher placement.

The C+ cup is something I have used on lead bone in a few different big bands, and Doug's small bore backbores are the best I've tried for small tenor. I wouldn't use something shallower than that because lead bone is really not *just* playing high. You need to have a clear sound in the whole register.

The Warburton "S" cup is specifically marketed for alto trombone and "unusual high register playing", a completely different thing altogether from lead bone playing. I would definitely ask for a return on that one if you only just bought it, and check out the C+/D2 combo that Doug suggested. If you absolutely were stuck on keeping the "S" cup, I would pair it with the most open throat that Warburton offers that mates to that cup, to help you put out sound and project. I don't know if they offer a shank with an open throat but balanced/tightish backbore.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply, i really appreciate the help.

I understood what you said about the N cup and high placement, and i agree. Probably would be a good idea to try a bunch of Doug Mouthpieces. Doug has recommended that mouthpiece i mentioned above a few months ago on a skype call, but i am a lttle worried it won't work on a small bore.

But yes probably the 7C is small for me, but i'm used to it, although i need something bigger i m afraid of losing range and endurance, probably a larger cup will prevent this problem with my nose.
ALSO i had this thing with the 12S T3 that pedals were very easy to get but high notes sounded awful, why is that?

The Warburton i bought 12S T3 feels way too small and shallow, as i mentioned earlier it feels tight and i split a lot of tones.
I m going to return it tomorrow and try to get something larger,

- what is your opinion on a 10M (6.5 rim) with a T3 Backbore?
Or maybe i should get something smaller?
- Is the M cup effective for lead or its too shallow still to get a good sound?
- is the jump from a 7C to a 6.5 Rim a good idea or its gonna kill my playing?

Thank you

[Trav1s]

For my Conn 24H and 6H (sold), Doug suggested LT101 or LT102 with C+/D2 and it works great.

[harrisonreed]

I understood what you said about the N cup and high placement, and i agree. Probably would be a good idea to try a bunch of Doug Mouthpieces. Doug has recommended that mouthpiece i mentioned above a few months ago on a skype call, but i am a lttle worried it won't work on a small bore.

The C+/D2 combo will work perfectly on small bore. I play a Doug Elliott N106.C+.D3 on my 3B for lead playing in a big band, and it is great for that job. If Doug says that the D2 shank is the right one for your trombone, rest assured, he is correct.

But yes probably the 7C is small for me, but i'm used to it, although i need something bigger i m afraid of losing range and endurance, probably a larger cup will prevent this problem with my nose.
ALSO i had this thing with the 12S T3 that pedals were very easy to get but high notes sounded awful, why is that?

I don't know much about the Warburton backbores. The wider cup *might* help you to play without shifting as much, but you will have to experiment. If Doug thinks it will, he is probably right. He knows more than anyone I can think of how to match a rim size to someone after seeing them play. You will likely GAIN range and endurance if you take his advice. The conventional idea about a smaller size mouthpiece automatically meaning better high range and endurance is completely wrong. Having the correct sized mouthpiece for *you* will help with those things.

The Warburton i bought 12S T3 feels way too small and shallow, as i mentioned earlier it feels tight and i split a lot of tones.
I m going to return it tomorrow and try to get something larger,

Sounds reasonable! You need to think about what works and what doesn't for you, and make decisions based on that.

- what is your opinion on a 10M (6.5 rim) with a T3 Backbore?
Or maybe i should get something smaller?

Probably don't go smaller. The 6.5 size is the smallest cup diameter that I would ever recommend to a student, personally, and generally only for very young players. In my experience, and letting other players try mouthpieces that I own, most players are downstream players, and do best on rims between a Doug Elliott 101 (5G width) and 103 (4G width). People who naturally play better on rims smaller than a 6.5 are pretty rare.

- Is the M cup effective for lead or its too shallow still to get a good sound?

Warburton advertises their M cup as being for LEAD playing, with all capital letters so I would hope it would work on lead, but I never tried one.

- is the jump from a 7C to a 6.5 Rim a good idea or its gonna kill my playing?

This is impossible to say if it's a good idea. Like I said, I start brand new beginners who have never held a trombone before on a 6.5 sized piece. That tiny jump definitely will not kill your playing. It probably will help it. But, if Doug told you that an N101 would be the best fit for you, a 6.5 is likely still too small.

I'll put it this way, your question is similar to this one: If I put springs on a bunch of shoes that let you jump 10 feet into the air and slam dunk the basketball, would you jump higher and have better endurance if you wore the size 5 spring shoes? The size 10 spring shoes? The size 14 spring shoes? Personally, I wear a size 14. You might wear a size 10, like so many people do. The thing that is interesting about the shoe is not that it fits your foot, it's that it has giant springs attached to it, that let us jump 10 feet and slam harder than Michael Jordan. If the job is to tap dance, would you tap better in size 5 tap shoes, size 10, or size 14? Probably size 10 again, or whatever your actual correct shoe size is. Even though the tap shoe is completely different from the shoes we bolted springs to, and they do a completely different job, they still need to fit your feet properly so your feet can move in them properly. But the fact they fit your feet isn't what makes them interesting. For me, mouthpieces are like that. The rim is one thing, and it needs to fit your face and let your face move properly. The rest of the mouthpiece is the other thing, which actually does the specific job you need it for.

[frankgalante]

I understood what you said about the N cup and high placement, and i agree. Probably would be a good idea to try a bunch of Doug Mouthpieces. Doug has recommended that mouthpiece i mentioned above a few months ago on a skype call, but i am a lttle worried it won't work on a small bore.

The C+/D2 combo will work perfectly on small bore. I play a Doug Elliott N106.C+.D3 on my 3B for lead playing in a big band, and it is great for that job. If Doug says that the D2 shank is the right one for your trombone, rest assured, he is correct.

But yes probably the 7C is small for me, but i'm used to it, although i need something bigger i m afraid of losing range and endurance, probably a larger cup will prevent this problem with my nose.
ALSO i had this thing with the 12S T3 that pedals were very easy to get but high notes sounded awful, why is that?

I don't know much about the Warburton backbores. The wider cup *might* help you to play without shifting as much, but you will have to experiment. If Doug thinks it will, he is probably right. He knows more than anyone I can think of how to match a rim size to someone after seeing them play. You will likely GAIN range and endurance if you take his advice. The conventional idea about a smaller size mouthpiece automatically meaning better high range and endurance is completely wrong. Having the correct sized mouthpiece for *you* will help with those things.

The Warburton i bought 12S T3 feels way too small and shallow, as i mentioned earlier it feels tight and i split a lot of tones.
I m going to return it tomorrow and try to get something larger,

Sounds reasonable! You need to think about what works and what doesn't for you, and make decisions based on that.

- what is your opinion on a 10M (6.5 rim) with a T3 Backbore?
Or maybe i should get something smaller?

Probably don't go smaller. The 6.5 size is the smallest cup diameter that I would ever recommend to a student, personally, and generally only for very young players. In my experience, and letting other players try mouthpieces that I own, most players are downstream players, and do best on rims between a Doug Elliott 101 (5G width) and 103 (4G width). People who naturally play better on rims smaller than a 6.5 are pretty rare.

- Is the M cup effective for lead or its too shallow still to get a good sound?

Warburton advertises their M cup as being for LEAD playing, with all capital letters so I would hope it would work on lead, but I never tried one.

- is the jump from a 7C to a 6.5 Rim a good idea or its gonna kill my playing?

This is impossible to say if it's a good idea. Like I said, I start brand new beginners who have never held a trombone before on a 6.5 sized piece. That tiny jump definitely will not kill your playing. It probably will help it. But, if Doug told you that an N101 would be the best fit for you, a 6.5 is likely still too small.

I'll put it this way, your question is similar to this one: If I put springs on a bunch of shoes that let you jump 10 feet into the air and slam dunk the basketball, would you jump higher and have better endurance if you wore the size 5 spring shoes? The size 10 spring shoes? The size 14 spring shoes? Personally, I wear a size 14. You might wear a size 10, like so many people do. The thing that is interesting about the shoe is not that it fits your foot, it's that it has giant springs attached to it, that let us jump 10 feet and slam harder than Michael Jordan. If the job is to tap dance, would you tap better in size 5 tap shoes, size 10, or size 14? Probably size 10 again, or whatever your actual correct shoe size is. Even though the tap shoe is completely different from the shoes we bolted springs to, and they do a completely different job, they still need to fit your feet properly so your feet can move in them properly. But the fact they fit your feet isn't what makes them interesting. For me, mouthpieces are like that. The rim is one thing, and it needs to fit your face and let your face move properly. The rest of the mouthpiece is the other thing, which actually does the specific job you need it for.

Hello! I think understand the concept now with the shoes example, it seems completely reasonable and it has sense if you put it that way.

The truth is that most people associate jazz with smaller mouthpieces like a 11C but there are just to small and hard to get a good sound on.

Thing is that i think that i got used to the 7C regardless of being too small for me, and it feels different to play something larger.

Now that you mentioned on how downstream players benefit from larger rims, i m thinking of maybe getting a 9M (25.65mm) instead of the 10M (25.40mm) both are a big jump for me, the only concern i have is that the 9M or DE 101 are larger than a 5G (25.50mm) and therefore it will be more like a 4C (which i dislike) than a shallow 5G.
I had some trouble before with 4Cish mouthpieces mostly on endurance and air requierd to play.

Anyway i will take either the 9M or the 10M (Doug i suppose would suggest the 9M or 101)

The other thing i wanted to ask is about the backbore, i have a Warburton T3 Backbore, i can't undertand the guide on the webpage about backbore sizes, so i don't know what does it do. I feel that pedals are easier on larger backbores for some reason.
Doug suggested the "D2" backbore which is asume would be the T2 of Warburton, i don't know how does he chooses a backbore
What backbore would match a 10M or 9M with a .500 bore

Thank you so much once more for your complete reply, i really appreciate it and it helps me a lot!!

[sungfw]

Edit: Doug Elliot Suggested me a LT SERIES N101 C+ D2 , although i dont know if that mouthpiece would fit a jazz small bore for lead playing. It seems to be too large of rim for lead playing.
What would be a Warburton equivalent?

Is Warburton paying YOU to play one of his mouthpieces? If not, why are you trying to figure out a Warburton combo similar to the DE combo Doug recommended instead of at least trying the DE mpc? It's not like a Warburton is going to save you a lot of money, and Doug offers a 30 day trial so you can actually give it a decent trial, as opposed to Warburton's "All product returns for refunds must be completed within 14 days of product shipment."