Vienna keys on trombone?

[Kdanielsen]

I'm primarily a large bore tenor player. For the last few weeks my high F has been sounding great but some other stuff has been getting worse (articulation, low range, etc). Realized yesterday that my spit valve had been gradually developing a leaking. Put a new cork on and everything works again, but the high F doesn't center nearly as easily.

This thread is not about advice on high notes. It's about this:

Has anyone ever experimented with putting Vienna keys on a trombone (like on high end rotary trumpets, where these keys help centering certain high notes)? Seems like it would be worth an experiment.

[harrisonreed]

I just tried it. My high F went massively out of tune and wouldn't center with the water key open.

I think the utility of this is would be limited, especially if the ideal location for a Vienna key was in a spot on the outer slide that wasn't on the crook.

From what I gather, the idea is that the Vienna key is not used in conjunction with the other rotors, so if you shift the idea to the trombone, you have an extremely limited area along the crook (relative to the trumpet) where you could put these.

[Kdanielsen]

I just tried it. My high F went massively out of tune and wouldn't center with the water key open.

Yeah me too. I'm talking about a tiny leak.

[GabrielRice]

No, but I know somebody pretty much due north of you who might be willing to experiment.

[harrisonreed]

The idea totally has merit. I guess, depending on how you actuated the key, you could use it in conjunction with moving the slide around (if located on the crook). Who knows what that would do to the pitch you're going to get.

On the rotary trumpets those Vienna keys are like cheat codes. It's got me thinking!

[timothy42b]

I just tried it. My high F went massively out of tune and wouldn't center with the water key open.

This is seriously weird. I just tried it too.

Now, I'm a very amateur community band level player. I would be unlikely to hit that note in a piece, but I have no trouble playing it when there's no need.

I pressed the water key and there was no change. ??? Really? I've had a small water key leak massively interfere in the middle range where I actually play. So I held a high Bb, moved to C, D, some kind of an out of tune E, and the F. Same thing everywhere. No change pressing the key.

The F below that, yes. Goes to fuzz immediately.

[harrisonreed]

Well, that's different from my little experiment. It's significantly worse with the key open, not the same. But like Kris says, he is looking at just a tiny leak, not having the key completely open.

[timothy42b]

It is not impossible that I am not really centering in the slot correctly as you are doing, therefore I don't notice when it gets messy. The tone is a bit whistly up there.

I tried making a video but the results weren't shareable without embarassment. I'll try again later.

[timothy42b]

Decided to accept the embarassment.

[Kdanielsen]

No, but I know somebody pretty much due north of you who might be willing to experiment.

I'm sure he'd be more than willing to start drilling holes in my Edwards... Then I'd need a new trombone!

[Kdanielsen]

I feel like SOMEBODY must have tried this, especially in Europe where those rotary trumpets are more common and everybody makes them. I'm not willing to start drilling holes in my horns so I guess it's a moot point for now. I was hoping someone would be like "yeah, larry tried this in the 70s and it didn't catch on" or whatever.

[AtomicClock]

To do it right, you'd need a way to actuate the valve (middle finger paddle?), then a series of levers that stretch down to the crook without interfering with slide movement. If you want to actuate in any position, that is even more complicated. I'm imagining long metal bars running parallel to the slide tubes. Which would have to go through the same alignment pains as those BBb contras (or DEG Quadros). Or Bluetooth to an electric motor on the crook, which somehow seems much worse.

Actually, if you start with a doubled-up slide, the crook is right there at your left hand. Hmmm.

[Kdanielsen]

How do we know that the end of the slide is the right place? Maybe they should go on the neckpipe or main tuning slide?

Some european trombones actually have spit valves that are actuated by your right thumb in normal playing position and use a long rigid cable/rod.

[Finetales]

I feel like Vienna keys wouldn't be useful enough on a trombone to warrant the extra complexity and ergonomic challenges. Trumpets (especially rotary trumpets) need all the help they can get up high, especially with big/deep orchestral mouthpieces, and the Vienna keys are easy to include on an instrument that small.

IMO, the only way a Vienna key would be worth it on an orchestral tenor trombone is if it made high D or Eb easier, but none of the standard Vienna keys on a trumpet are made for anywhere near that high. The most common one is made for written high C, which would just be Bolero Bb on trombone. The two less common Klappen are for high A and B. Trumpeters do also use the spit valve as an additional Klappe for certain notes on a rotary.

[harrisonreed]

IMO, the only way a Vienna key would be worth it on an orchestral tenor trombone is if it made high D or Eb easier, but none of the standard Vienna keys on a trumpet are made for anywhere near that high. The most common one is made for written high C, which would just be Bolero Bb on trombone. The two less common Klappen are for high A and B. Trumpeters do also use the spit valve as an additional Klappe for certain notes on a rotary.

By "anywhere near that high", you're talking about the relative partial on trumpet, not the pitch in hz right? If that's the case, and the only practical application is for notes around a Bb4 on trombone, it's not really needed. But the OP is saying he gets a better F5... It'd help to hear or see what he's talking about. I want an easy cheat for those notes too.

This was my issue with it -- on trumpet they are located on the first crook and also past it. On trombone this might mean they would be *on* the outer slide tubes. That position would not work.

[Kdanielsen]

Unfortunately I can't provide a video because I put a new cork on, and only then did i realize the minor leak had been helping the high F! By the time i realized what was going on it was too late!

[Finetales]

By "anywhere near that high", you're talking about the relative partial on trumpet, not the pitch in hz right? If that's the case, and the only practical application is for notes around a Bb4 on trombone, it's not really needed. But the OP is saying he gets a better F5... It'd help to hear or see what he's talking about. I want an easy cheat for those notes too.

Correct. Put another way, the 3 standard Vienna keys are for, in order of commonality, 8th partial open, 8th partial 12, 8th partial 2. Which on a trombone would be Bb4, G4, and A4.

[Kdanielsen]

I thought they used them for a fifth above those (equivalent) notes as well. I may be wrong.

[timothy42b]

Hmm. Might be worth taping the water key open and playing a chromatic scale across the range. It's really hard to press it while playing even in 1st.

[BigBadandBass]

Maybe partially related, a fun party trick is that D4 is unaffected by the spit valve being open

[Kdanielsen]

Maybe partially related, a fun party trick is that D4 is unaffected by the spit valve being open

You can play a good low B with the spit valve too, but it’s crackly sounding!

[harrisonreed]

Maybe partially related, a fun party trick is that D4 is unaffected by the spit valve being open

I see what you did there...