Bass trombone sound concept: Classical vs Jazz

[ghmerrill]

I have to wonder if it may have something to do with the average age of audience members.

[Doug Elliott]

In live situations you can almost never trust the mics/sound system/sound engineer to balance ANYTHING properly.
In a studio it's totally different... you can't be second-guessing the person running it.

[Burgerbob]

Venues in LA are also not very large. Similar to NYC, you aren't there in a tiny club trying to push the audience out with sound pressure.

[ithinknot]

When the Artie Shaw band was going (I played lead for about 17 years at the end of the era), there were certain sections of tunes where the entire band would play softer than I had ever experienced in any group, any genre.

Something that Basie really got right too... if the quiet stuff is properly quiet, the impact of loud is so much greater when it happens. Maximizing perceived dynamic range is interesting, maximizing the ceiling not so much.

[tbdana]

Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.

My experience was back when the earth's crust was still cooling, but the best big bands I played with in L.A. played really freakin' loud. They just didn't overblow their horns, and it didn't sound like they were playing as loud as they were, but it was very loud.

I think the loudest one was probably Les Hooper's band one night when the trumpet section was Rick Baptist, Walt Johnson, George Graham, and Dan Fornero in a small club on Ventura Blvd called Catalina's. It was nuts that night. My ears still rang the next day.

[2bobone]

Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound. Simple !

[Fridge]

Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..

Fridge

[harrisonreed]

Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound. Simple !

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.

[tbdana]

Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..

Fridge

applause.gif

Overthinking is what we do on social media. That's about all there is to do on social media. But in real life, and especially in playing trombone, it is the death of excellence.

[tbdana]

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

thank you harry.gif

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[elmsandr]

Why would I need to expand it?

I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.

fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg

The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.

Just a note, I’d wager the last couple of inches of most leadpipes is in fact cylindrical. You’d have to trim quite a bit off to get into the taper.

Last one I measured (a longer pipe, but still) had over 3” of cylindrical at the end. And yes, this length still does matter. Why else do they sell regular and long leadpipes of the same size and taper? You can see (roughly) how long the cylindrical part is by seeing what actually contacts the inside of the inner slide. Not exact, but you get the idea.

Cheers,
Andy

[harrisonreed]

Interesting!!

I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.

[elmsandr]

Interesting!!

I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.

You can get a longer taper in a longer pipe, but noting some manufacturers out there… then it wouldn’t be a T2 and a T2L, they’d be different

And yes, that ‘stability’ is a great descriptor when it works…can also tighten and feel constraining if it doesn’t.

Somewhat back on topic, I trimmed off bass leadpipe to where the taper ended to made a completely smooth transition…. Well, I made a great buzz aid for my car. Do not recommend for use in a horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[imsevimse]

About stopping the tone with the tongue, in some bands it is an agreed style. In some other bands it is not. It is a quite audioble difference. The Baise clip above says it all. Most players can not cut of like that whout using the tonguestop. But if you can, well go for it.

not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.

That was a reallly good video about toungestops and where it is appropriate. It's not a tangent because it is one tool more for the concept of jazz and maybe not so much for classical , but I'm sure someone can think of use also in classical music, maybe in some modern music with effects. Use a tool if it sounds good. Anything that sounds good is good if you can make it work for you.

/Tom

[Kbiggs]

Why would I need to expand it?

I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.

fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg

The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.

If you cut a leadpipe in half along the length of it, you’ll see it does have an hourglass-like shape to it, whether it’s drawn or seamed and formed. Many people assume that a leadpipe is simply a tube to fit the mouthpiece: the mouthpiece fits into the tube, and that the mouthpiece is the only venturi in the first part of the instrument.

The leadpipe is not simply an extension of the mouthpiece. It has its own venturi. The venturis (venturas? venturæ?) in the first yard of the trombone are the lips, the throat of the mouthpiece, and then the throat (venturi) of the leadpipe.

I cut some off the end of an old leadpipe. I had an old Bach 50 leadpipe that was slightly corroded, so I trimmed about 1/4” from the end. I used that for many years when I was playing heavier equipment. With lighter equipment, I’m now on a standard 50 leadpipe. The trimmed 50 takes just a wee bit more air, and it tends to produce a lot core and a very dark sound—but it has an immediacy of attack. It can take some sloppiness. The stock 50 has ever-so-slightly less core, more stability, a few more upper frequencies to the sound. Less room for error.

When I bought an Edwards tenor, Christan fitted me with a leadpipe that had about 5/8” trimmed from the bottom. It was developed for an artist—trombone professor in Texas, lots of students, name escapes me… Anyhow, on tenor and with that set-up, it took the “bubble” off the initial attack. Doing an A-B comparison in the Edwards shop and at home, it was really an eye-opener.

It’s amazing how such a small bit of metal can make such a huge difference in the feel and sound.

[TomInME]

I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section.

Maybe the conductor wanted a percussive sound? There's some orchestral music (mid 20th-century?) where that would be entirely consistent with what the composer intended.
Please be clear if you're judging the conductor's musical choices as wrong for that particular context vs declaring a particular performance technique invalid everywhere.

In a performance context, I do whatever is necessary to get the correct result on the other side of the bell. (I occasionally succeed) In jazz, that generally means strongly rhythmic articulations, often in the form of very very short notes. For me, that requires fairly sharp tongue attacks and tongue stops. I will also note that this is a bass trombone thread, and it's more difficult to be as crisp as the smaller-bore instruments - tongue is often necessary for some people (definitely me).

I fully believe Doug when he says he can get very very short notes without a tongue stop (the Artie Shaw book had plenty), and I doubt any of us could hear a difference. (and if you can't hear a difference, there is no difference) However, a lot of players can't, and might benefit from tongue stopping if they can get past that pedantic "tongue stops are BAD" mentality.

That was the point I was trying to make originally: if you're not playing short enough without tongue stops, maybe you need them, and in jazz they're generally accepted. Hanging over is NOT.

[Redthunder]

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.

Nobody said it's not a legit part of commercial playing. Doug is just saying it's entirely possible to do it without tongue stops... and he's right. It takes practice like anything else, and it has made my trombone playing better all around.

[harrisonreed]

I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd. And it's just a tiny part of the overall discussion.

[Redthunder]

I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd

I still don't see where anybody said it so... Sorry?

[Bfullerbtb23]

In my experience, the overall consistency and standard of how you treat each note is the same. However the main difference is in the shapes of notes as many other people have shared in this forum. Even though the “standard” is the same I fond myself much more relaxed in a jazz setting

[imsevimse]

I do play bass trombone but primarily I consider me to be more experienced as a tenor player. I can use the same gear for classical as well as jazz but to fit in I choose equipment that blends with others. Generally I use larger equipment for classical music compared to jazz and it's the same whether its tenor or bass, but it's not always like that. Today I played in a big cathedral. It was music for brass quartet and church organ with two trumpets, tenor and bass trombone. The bass trombone was a Gerdt Bb/F/D indi double valve. I used my Gerd model 216 Bb/G .500 tenor trombone. We match real well. To get a broader sound I used my Shires MG-signature mouthpiece that has great both low and high register. I could scale up to and play a .525 or a .547 horn with no problem too in that context and then I would have played a Hammond 12M or 12MXL. All this larger bore trombones is mostly because it helps to get me in the right mood for classical and of course it depends on what the other members use and what parts we play. If it was in an orchestra I had probably not choosen a .500 horn if not for some specific reason. There I usually play .525 or .547 for deeper sound. If I play jazz I still use a .500 or smaller and change to a Bach 11C to give more brilliance and crisp as well as more endurance. When considering gears for bass trombone I do the same. I use a "lighter" horn for big band that projects well like my Kanstul 1662, King 6B or Conn 73H or I use one of my "lighter" sounding single triggers: Conn 71H, Conn 72H, Olds P21, Holton 169, Yamaha 321, 322 or Holton TR183. I use mouthpieces from Bach 2G to Laskey 93D. This is for jazz and pop. If I would get a more classical job I could still use those but also Conn 62H, Bach 50, Holton TR180, Holton TR185 and Benge 290. I would use the same mouthpieces and maybe add a Laskey 95D if needed.
I'd probably go for a darker more mellow sound in classical compared to jazz/pop. The same with tenor. You listen and adopt.

/Tom

[deanmccarty]

Don’t get too caught up in changing equipment. In the old days, guys played what they were given… stock horns. Sure, there were a few people out there customizing things. But for the most part people played stock horns. It’s really more about 1. Correct style, and 2. A good sound concept. I will delve into both:

1. Correct style… we are taught correct classical style from day one. Full value notes, deep breathing, opening up, tongue placement… all to get a great classical orchestral sound. For jazz style and sound most teachers back in the day didn’t really know much about jazz… some even despised it. Today, teachers are more well rounded, but still lack the complexities of the art form. First… LISTEN! You need to listen to all of the different big bands and hear their particular style. Each band leader or writer had their own concept of how much to lay back, or how much in front of the beat to place a note. In general, as a bass trombonist, you must always lay on the front side of the beat in order not to drag. Most young players tend to drag, and play incorrect styles… and… they just blat a lot. Which brings me to the next point…

2. Sound concept: Listen to the great big band players… they all sound different, just like the tenor players. But you will develop the sound in your head that you want… which will most likely be a combination of everyone you’ve listened to… but that sound will become uniquely yours. George Roberts, Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Ernie Tack, Kenny Shroyer, Jim Amlotte, Bob Knight, Paul Faulise, Dudley Hinote, and Phil Teele is a great list to start with. You mentioned how easy it is to change sounds on tenor because of equipment. Keep in mind that the gargantuan tenors of today are NOT what was written for by early 20th century and prior composers. Bore sizes were all mostly under .500. With that said… I understand that the large tenor is what is expected today. But you can really round out the sound of a .500 bore trombone if you just open up, and make your sound concept do the work for you. Will you sound like a .547 bore instrument? No, but you CAN completely change the sound of a small horn. The same is true of bass… if you listen to Dave Taylor playing with Grover Washington Jr. in the 70s, and then turn around and listen to him play Gabrielli with the New York Trumpet Ensemble you would swear that it’s different players. Same guy, same equipment… just different sounds in his head allowing his brain to make the needed changes in vowel shape, tongue placement, even airflow. It all makes a difference.

To make it simple… make sure you are accurate on your time… and do a LOT of listening.