6.5AL vs. 12C

[oldsambassador]

Comebacker here.

My first thought was to go with a 6.5AL, however, I really didn't sound that great on it. I decided to try the 12C that came with my horn and it was a revelation. Intonation, sound quality, just everything was better.

Maybe after a while I will be able to use the 6.5 or maybe not. I wonder if my chops have changed or they just need strength built up?

[Posaunus]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

If you don't want to put up with that discrepancy, your options are limited. If your Ambassador is an Olds A-20 (with F-attachment), it originally came with an Olds 1 mouthpiece - roughly the same Cup I.D. as a Bach 12 or 12C, but quite different otherwise (Cup shape and volume, Rim shape) as well as Shank size. If you have an Olds A-15 (no F-attachment), the original mouthpiece was an Olds 3 (smaller than an Olds 1). Olds mouthpieces are sometimes available on the used market and are inexpensive.

I decided that I wanted a bigger, better mouthpiece for my Olds (Recording) trombone, and use a Doug Elliott setup (separate Rim, Cup, and Shank) with a Shank that matches the Olds taper. This costs more, but works very well for me. If you are interested, Doug can advise you.

My personal opinion: The 6½AL mouthpiece is too big for your Ambassador; I'm not surprised you don't sound great. And I think the 12C is a bit too small (as well as the wrong taper). But if it works for you, stick with the 12C until you find it limiting.

[tbdana]

My first impression on reading your post was that as a recent comebacker your chops just aren't strong, flexible, or focused enough at this stage of the comeback, so naturally you sound better on the 12C because it kind of helps you along. As you get better and stronger, you may find the 12C limiting instead of helpful.

I know nothing about the taper, so I won't address that. But I do agree with Posaunus that the 6.5AL is too big and the 12C is too small for the Ambassador. I personally would use a size somewhere between 7C and 11C, leaning more toward the 11C. I think both the 12C and the 6.5AL are outside the optimal size range for that particular horn, and despite your "revelation," you may eventually find both to be limiting.

[Bach5G]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

[oldsambassador]

Excellent info. Thanks folks!

[Posaunus]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

In other words, an appropriate medium-large mouthpiece for a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone.
Not so much for a small-bore tenor like an Olds Ambassador.

[Bach5G]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

In other words, an appropriate medium-large mouthpiece for a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone.
Not so much for a small-bore tenor like an Olds Ambassador.

I could have made that clearer.

[ghmerrill]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

This is true, except ...

If you're willing to put in a bit of effort, you can make a Kelly plastic mouthpiece fit the Olds taper. This is what I've done with my '47 Olds Standard. I won't go into the details of how I did this (it involved a drill press, though a lathe would have been better), but I sanded down the Kelly 12c shank to fit in the Olds leadpipe. It was a quick and economical solution for a horn I rarely use. There's really nothing wrong with a Kelly 12C -- in your personal choice of color.

Otherwise, you can just get an appropriate shank/mouthpiece from Doug Elliott.

[Doug Elliott]

The 6-1/2 "size" is not inappropriate for an Ambassador, but the backbore and the shank size won't do you any favors. Both just make it harder to play, especially for a beginner or somebody coming back to playing.

[oldsambassador]

The 6-1/2 "size" is not inappropriate for an Ambassador, but the backbore and the shank size won't do you any favors. Both just make it harder to play, especially for a beginner or somebody coming back to playing.

I think I will rock the 12C for now. Wait for my chops to strengthen and then look for a piece that is more appropriate for my horn. Maybe hit you up for something.

[SteveM]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

My personal opinion: The 6½AL mouthpiece is too big for your Ambassador; I'm not surprised you don't sound great. And I think the 12C is a bit too small (as well as the wrong taper). But if it works for you, stick with the 12C until you find it limiting.

I believe the taper Olds used is the standard Morse taper. It is simply a little smaller than standard. The Bach mouthpiece probably won't wobble, it just won't go in as far as it should. This does slightly impair response and intonation. You are best off with an Olds mouthpiece or, better yet, Doug Elliott can provide the correct shank size. I don't think 12C is too small for an Ambassador (bore is dual bore .485/.500). In the days when the Ambassador was introduced as a student horn, many trombone players used 12C and 15C mouthpieces and sounded great.

[oldsambassador]

Now to find an Olds mouthpiece!