Serial number question (again)

[Indigowarpz]

Hey folks!

I’m having trouble making sense of the available serial number chart from CG Conn.

My 88HCL serial number is 184630, and by the chart, doesn’t correspond with any years that make sense. (Of course it wouldn’t have been made in 1919). Adding 50 to the prefix “18” also doesn’t make sense as that system applies to horns produced after 1987.

I may just be in error, but it seems there’s simply holes in the information supplied by Conn on their serial number charts. Attached is a picture of the bell engraving.

Thank you!

[hornbuilder]

Yes. The Conn serial number information is seriously lacking. You may be able to get it down to a decade based on the bell engraving, but that may be it.

[AtomicClock]

88HCL

That's the one with the Lindberg valve? I don't think that came out until 2000 or so.

[GACMoose]

I have know idea how accurate this is, but I read somewhere that Conn serial numbers matched the King serials during the UMI years. So, I searched King and did find a list that might indicate 2007. I'm trying to find the source of my list - if I do, I'll add it to this post (or create a new one in this thread.)

]t might be interesting to put out a survey in which members would list their serials and the year they know (or can approximate) for years after 1987. I'm not sure if I can do this and don't know how. Maybe a moderator or someone who has a lot more knowledge could do it?[/b]

Mine is older and on the pre-1987 list so I wouldn't be able to contribute to that list (48H, 1967)...

[hornbuilder]

I will add...

When I worked for the company I came to the US to work for, we received boxes of cross braces, with their lever bridge already attached, and serial number engraved. These were for the Conn 88HG and 62HG. It took a good number of years to get through them, and I don't think all were used. Who knows how diligent they were in the Conn shop with actually using a particular number in the year it was supposed to be attributed to?? Take any serial number info from Conn in the period with several grains of salt.

[Indigowarpz]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, it’s quite helpful.

From what I’ve read, Conn does not seem to be a customer-facing company these days in the least. There’s no effective way to reach anyone who may be of assistance, and no CS email or phone number.

An old thread on a sax forum lists a number, but it’s specifically for dealers, rather than customers.

It’s so odd (is it…?) that they would have such a big gap in their info.

@GACmoose I think I may have gotten this horn in 2006, new from a shop in Milwaukee, WI.

@hornbuilder cool info on the braces; I wonder if mine may be one of those!

[Burgerbob]

It’s so odd (is it…?) that they would have such a big gap in their info.

I think it's not that weird. It just doesn't matter that much in the end.

[OneTon]

What matters is how hard did it get ridden and many times was it put to bed wet.

[hornbuilder]

@hornbuilder cool info on the braces; I wonder if mine may be one of those!

Only if it is an 88HTG

[AtomicClock]

It's funny that we can trace Conn serial numbers through a depression and two world wars, but not during the information age.

Are the modern companies doing any better? I bet Steve Shires could put up a page with a perfectly complete Stephens serial number list. But maybe not if he puts it off for a decade.

[Indigowarpz]

@burgerbob in the end, truly.

@atomicclock this is exactly the existential humor I’m feeling with my original question! None of it matters, but nobody can know either way.

[harrisonreed]

I don't know if it's possible to know the exact second the horn was built, but I think you answered your own question. It looks like it is an early 2000's Eastlake. If it's a CL model, with that bell engraving, look at the rotor and you can confirm it. "Patent Pending" rotors are the earliest ones. If it's got a patent number on it, it's from around 2004 or later (similar to them using random serial numbers, they didn't stop building horns with existing patent pending rotors until those were used up, even after it was patented).

After the Eastlake period you will see a new bell engraving and the nod to Elkhart on the bell, around 2017 or 2018 I believe.

[elmsandr]

In modern manufacturing I’m confused about why we don’t have the various modular components with lot dates or individual serial numbers. Maintaining a birth history on all of them would be easier than whatever it is they are doing now and provide a better ability to track and trace items.

For example, when you part out a modular horn, who cares what the serial number of the valve section was when all you have 2 owners later is the flare. I’d probably do something more like Yamaha and just do a running count by model type.

Cheers,
Andy

[AtomicClock]

For example, when you part out a modular horn, who cares what the serial number of the valve section was when all you have 2 owners later is the flare. I’d probably do something more like Yamaha and just do a running count by model type.

A serial number has many uses, but what's it really for? I don't think it exists to allow hobbyists to obsess over their old gear. I always thought it was for theft recovery. You can't expect want a beat cop or pawn shop owner to understand that "modern manufacturing" trombones need to be treated differently from trumpets or chain saws.

[hornbuilder]

I have a complete serial number, and spec. list, of every instrument that has come out of my shop. Of course I made it easier to date them by using the year of manufacture the first 2 digits, with the following 3 being the sequential build number. For me, it is a way of keeping track of what has been made. For the client, the serial number is useful for insurance documents. IMO

[JohnL]

From what I’ve read, Conn does not seem to be a customer-facing company these days in the least. There’s no effective way to reach anyone who may be of assistance, and no CS email or phone number.

An old thread on a sax forum lists a number, but it’s specifically for dealers, rather than customers.

There's a management philosophy in the world of corporate manufacturing that considers the "customer" to be whoever buys the product from the company. In the case of Conn-Selmer, that would be their dealers, not the consumer.

A serial number has many uses, but what's it really for? I don't think it exists to allow hobbyists to obsess over their old gear. I always thought it was for theft recovery.

It's also useful for warranty purposes. If there is a claim, the company wants to have proof of when and where that particular unit was purchased.

[elmsandr]

Traceability and birth history.

For warranty, they need to know when something was made. You have an Edwards or Shires and want to warranty the slide, how do they know? They don’t really. They should have a record of when they sold you A slide, but not necessarily THIS slide. The company should want to know why they have warranty issues as well; if they know the birth history, do they produce more bad slides in the summer or winter? Again, how do they know without that information on the part in front of them? They are recoding these things loosely on cards or system while processing…. They could even link interesting process inputs as well; operator on spinning, which exact 42 mandrel was used, time stamps… and it would cost almost nothing to add.

I’d bet two-four warranty returned horns could pay for it for all of the shop. Heck, decades ago now Getzen had a system where you had to scan barcodes to move lots through the process, but you lose that data as soon as you separate the parts on a horn that was designed to be separated!

For the end consumer, it’s really easy to end up with a horn that has no serial number these days, or to have one that isn’t accurate, as you updated the valve section but not the paperwork.

Cheers,
Andy

[Northernigel]

Yes. The Conn serial number information is seriously lacking. You may be able to get it down to a decade based on the bell engraving, but that may be it.

The position of the Conn Serial number is most unfortunate on the 3 X 48h and 1 6H I own. Over the decades the serial numbers wear away.
My King 3BF Silversonic has serial numbers stamped everywhere.