Tuba and bass trom are not interchangeable

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:04 am

I've noticed this a few times. People think that the bass trombone is a substitute for a tuba. It isn't though is it? Just because both instruments play in the lower range, people who should know better seem to treat the instruments as interchangeable. The sound textures of these instruments are completely different. It does kind of irritate me a bit when I get this from conductors, who ask me to play the tuba part. Yeah, I can certainly do that for you, but it won't be anywhere near the effect produced by a tuba.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:32 am

Just as in real estate, where the most important factors are: location, location, location... the most important factors for when you can use bass instead of or in addition to tuba are: context, context, context. Sometimes it works. Sometimes you have no other choice. Sometimes it doesn't work. Every scenario basically falls into one of those three buckets.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:03 am

Maybe you're better than what the available tuba would produce.

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:13 am

I tend to agree, sometimes it can work, but more often than not, it isn't ideal.
I'm always really disappointed when I see an absent tuba in an orchestra or wind ensemble. For me that instrument is crucial. It leaves an absolutely gaping hole in the overall sound balance if it's missing.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:18 am

Quote from: Hicks on Today at 08:13 AMI tend to agree, sometimes it can work, but more often than not, it isn't ideal.
I'm always really disappointed when I see an absent tuba in an orchestra or wind ensemble. For me that instrument is crucial. It leaves an absolutely gaping hole in the overall sound balance if it's missing.

So true.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:20 am

I would tend to agree, but sometimes there are other factors involved. I did an orchestra concert where we played mostly "big band" arrangements (5 saxes, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones, strings) and they put a couple of conventional arrangements in. I was the bass trombone and they wanted me to cover the tuba part on ONE piece (no tuba on any of the others). Why ask a tuba player to play for one short number out of a concert? I used to double tuba and if I was 10 years younger I would have brought my tuba in for that piece, but I can't manage to haul as much gear as I used to so I had to play the part on bass trombone. It sure would have sounded better on tuba, but the economics (and ergonomics) just weren't there.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:21 am

Most conductors are perfectly aware that they aren't the same and don't sound the same.

A lot of that Bach keyboard stuff wasn't written for a piano, but it is often played on one.

Are you being asked because there is no tuba (or a weak tuba player)?

It's the bass part. It's kind of important. Upright bass and Electric bass are not the same instrument and sound nothing like each other, but in a pinch they are often substitutes for each other.

Because bass is really important.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:57 am

Let me turn this on it's head for a minute.... often bass trombone/cimbasso/ophiclide parts are to be found inside parts marked tuba. Also when three trombones and a tuba are on contract, the tuba is often made to play 4th trombone parts. The tuba is a very different voice to any of those mentioned and often not at all suitable. I have just finished a run of 'La Boheme' on contrabass trombone on the 4th part... that is how it should be... even a large bass is better than a tuba there. Same goes for 'Tosca'. We also just did a concert of early Puccini where parts were marked bass trombone, tuba and ophiclide.... on looking at the scores I decided, with the conductor that a large bass able to play down to G as a harmonic, not a pedal, would be ideal... so that's what we did. Worked.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:04 pm

Yeah, its not like if you have a part that specifies "tuba" in every context you can assume its going to be fine on bass.... there are contexts it is though. Having a Bass trombone in a brass quintet instead of a tuba certainly doesn't ruin the sound, and repertoire written for brass quintet with tuba shouldn't always be avoided if you have a bass trombone in your quintet.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:52 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Today at 01:04 PMYeah, its not like if you have a part that specifies "tuba" in every context you can assume its going to be fine on bass.... there are contexts it is though. Having a Bass trombone in a brass quintet instead of a tuba certainly doesn't ruin the sound, and repertoire written for brass quintet with tuba shouldn't always be avoided if you have a bass trombone in your quintet.

Well, I don't like the traditional quintet with tuba rep played on bass trombone. I have walked away from our brass quintet because of that.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Quote from: blast on Today at 01:52 PMWell, I don't like the traditional quintet with tuba rep played on bass trombone. I have walked away from our brass quintet because of that.

Chris Stearn

Yeah, its not black and white for me. I don't form an opinion until I hear it in a quintet setting. Sometimes it works, other times notbso much. Same vice versa. I wouldn't bother bringing both a bass trombone and tuba player to a quintet performance though, regardless of the rep. I would expect the quintet to make a decision on which one and pick the most appropriate music accordingly.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:04 pm

When I played 5th chair I doubled on tuba and bass trombone. Found that some pieces sound best on tuba and others on bass trombone. Generally I played a smaller tuba (F-Tuba).

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:07 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Today at 01:58 PMYeah, its not black and white for me. I don't form an opinion until I hear it in a quintet setting. Sometimes it works, other times notbso much. Same vice versa. I wouldn't bother bringing both a bass trombone and tuba player to a quintet performance though, regardless of the rep. I would expect the quintet to make a decision on which one and pick the most appropriate music accordingly.

Yes indeed.

Chris Stearn

ttf_jmtheob · Post by **ttf_jmtheob** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:12 pm

Speaking from a composer's point of view, if I write something for a tuba it is because I hear a tuba in that part. There is a lot of difference between tuba and bass bone and when the play together in unison or octaves, it is a fabulous sound. If you don't have a tuba player, that's one thing but I would urge you to try and find one. Bass bone on a tuba part is for emergencies only as far as I am concerned. Just my 2 cents.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:38 pm

I rather listen to a bass trombone playing the tuba part than vice versa. The "Fine Arts" brass quintet lead by trumpeter Anthony Plog used a bass trombone instead of a tuba and it sounded all right. As others have said some repertoire does not apply to a change at all. I don't think the Victor Ewald quintets would be fun listening without a tuba playing the tuba parts, but generally as a SOUND I do prefer the bass trombone sound to the tuba sound. Same with the euphonium or baritone. As a sound I do prefer the trombone, but in the "Planets" by Gustav Holst I can not be without it. There are lots of other examples where the composer had a clear vision. In those situations it is obvious he really wanted the tuba or the euphonium sound. It just is not possible to replace, and then there is no substitute for that sound. What I think!!!

/Tom

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:12 pm

Quote from: Hicks on Today at 06:04 AMYeah, I can certainly do that for you, but it won't be anywhere near the effect produced by a tuba.If it's a choice between a bass trombone on the part and dead air, the bass trombone wins pretty much every time. If, OTOH, you're being asked to play the tuba part when there is a competent tuba sitting right there? Gotta wonder 'bout that. OTOOH, that approach works pretty well on some genres. Concert band arrangements of pop/rock tunes, for example (been there, done that - many times).

Of course, I'm not getting a check or a grade when I play. A very different world from the one in which some the posters to this thread dwell.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:48 pm

I have a slightly different [and cynical] take on using the proper instrument on the proper part. Waaaaayyyyy back in the 70's I played a run of Wagner's "Die Walkyrie" with Antal Dorati conducting. The NSO was in the pit at the Kennedy Center Opera House and the regular Opera House Orchestra shifted over to the Kennedy Center Concert Hall to play a run of "Children's Concerts" that the NSO typically did at that time of year. I was assigned the contrabass trombone part and thought I would use my cimbasso on which to play the part. I always had a really solid pedal register on bass trombone but when I mentioned my idea of playing the part on cimbasso to management, I was told that it wouldn't be necessary because they felt I covered the contrabass part perfectly well on bass trombone. We ALL know the difference it would have made to have a cimbasso on that part, but the decision to disallow was made on one factor ---- they were too CHEAP to pay the Union "doubling fee" that would be mandated had I used the cimbasso. That is the cold truth ! I always called it "The Bean Counter's Revenge" !
As to the Kennedy Center Opera Orchestra being assigned the NSO "dirty work" --- were they happy about it ? NO they were not ! The NSO understood that we were usurping possibly their only chance to play this iconic work, and they were totally capable of doing a great job of performing it, but Maestro Dorati refused to mount the production without "His" orchestra that he knew and trusted. That is why it is called "The Music Business" ---- NOT "The Art of Making Music" ! Cheers to all !! Bob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:03 pm

At least the accountants hadn't gotten to the part of paring "redundant string players"

I remember Steve Norrell telling me that he was playing a bass trombone for the Wagner contra parts in the Met at the request of Levine. Another case.

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:20 am

Quote from: jmtheob on Jun 21, 2017, 02:12PMSpeaking from a composer's point of view, if I write something for a tuba it is because I hear a tuba in that part. There is a lot of difference between tuba and bass bone and when the play together in unison or octaves, it is a fabulous sound. If you don't have a tuba player, that's one thing but I would urge you to try and find one. Bass bone on a tuba part is for emergencies only as far as I am concerned. Just my 2 cents.

Yes I agree, the combination of tuba and bass bone can be wonderful, complimenting each other nicely. Maybe I notice the absence of tuba more, being part of the low brass.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:59 am

ha ha --tried doing tuba on a 72h this week at rehearsal --

concert music ---a humbling experience for sure -i sucked totally got dizzy --
switched to 547 for concert --but did get in a few licks on some tuba charts !!!!!!!!!

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:18 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 21, 2017, 06:03PMAt least the accountants hadn't gotten to the part of paring "redundant string players"

I remember Steve Norrell telling me that he was playing a bass trombone for the Wagner contra parts in the Met at the request of Levine. Another case.

Yes he did. And it did sound wonderful!

He did a good job of making the pedals not sounding like pedals. (But the contra can do it even better.)
I don´t think the cimbasso sound like the contra, I think I would prefer Steve Norell on bass.
The Wagner ring is written for bass trombone/Contra bass trombone in the same part, so the player bring both a basstrombone and a contra. If only one instrument the basstrombone would be better.

There are four low brasses, Tuba, cimbasso, contra bass trombone and bass trombone. The do not sound the same. Often the tuba is playing cimbasso or contrabass trombone parts, even in some cirkumstances bass trombone part in some small orchestras.

In Stan Kensons big band with 5 trombones the 5th part was a bass trombone/tuba part. Sometimes it was writen tuba sometimes bass trombone, sometimes the tuba part was played on bass trombone and vice versa, because it just sounded better.

ttf_EdGrissom · Post by **ttf_EdGrissom** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:37 am

I've seen people use a butter knife for a screwdriver. But I've never seen someone use a screwdriver for a butter knife.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:00 am

This is just the reason that I play both Tuba and Bass Trombone (and tenor on rare occasion). A Bass trombone is not a good substitute for a Tuba (or vice versa) in most circumstances. That being said a Bass trombone playing a Tuba part is often better than dead air. One of the bands I was in was often missing the Tuba so I picked up Tuba again after many years of not having played one, and now I'm playing as much Tuba (or more depending on the season) as I am Trombone and Euphonium. If you're a Bass trombonist I would say consider picking up a used Tuba and learning it, it's a great double and you'll have the option of giving them a real Tuba sound if required.

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:14 am

Quote from: Radar on Jun 22, 2017, 07:00AMThis is just the reason that I play both Tuba and Bass Trombone (and tenor on rare occasion). A Bass trombone is not a good substitute for a Tuba (or vice versa) in most circumstances. That being said a Bass trombone playing a Tuba part is often better than dead air. One of the bands I was in was often missing the Tuba so I picked up Tuba again after many years of not having played one, and now I'm playing as much Tuba (or more depending on the season) as I am Trombone and Euphonium. If you're a Bass trombonist I would say consider picking up a used Tuba and learning it, it's a great double and you'll have the option of giving them a real Tuba sound if required.

Great idea. I've considered this, and I reckon I'd get more playing opportunities. Tuba players around here seem rarer than hen's teeth. Or maybe they're just happy doing brass bands. Oddly enough we have more than enough trombonists.
But very often there's no tuba. In fact I'm doing a gig this weekend and have been informed there's no tuba player.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:48 am

If there is no tuba around, a good basstrombone will do.
In bigband, is there is no basstrombone around a good tuba will do.

ttf_Larry Preston Roberson · Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:35 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 21, 2017, 06:32AMSometimes it works. Sometimes you have no other choice. Sometimes it doesn't work. Every scenario basically falls into one of those three buckets.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jun 21, 2017, 01:04PMHaving a Bass trombone in a brass quintet instead of a tuba certainly doesn't ruin the sound...
It certainly hasn't hurt The American Brass Quintet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6anBABvDS7I

But, I do tend agree with Mr. Stearn.
Quote from: blast on Jun 21, 2017, 01:52PMWell, I don't like the traditional quintet with tuba rep played on bass trombone...

Quote from: blast on Jun 21, 2017, 09:57AM...early Puccini where parts were marked...ophiclide....
Depending on which ophiclide the piece is scored for, I usually cover the parts on euphonium with the water key taped open. Just kidding about the water key.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 21, 2017, 02:04PM...Generally I played a smaller tuba (F-Tuba).
If a piece is scored for bass tuba (F or E-flat), I usually substitute euphonium as well. At least, in general, more often than bass trombone.

Quote from: Exzaclee on Jun 21, 2017, 09:21AMBecause bass is really important.
Meghan Trainor agrees. (I can feel a collective rolling of the eyes)

But yes, in general...
Quote from: JohnL on Jun 21, 2017, 03:12PMIf it's a choice between a bass trombone on the part and dead air, the bass trombone wins pretty much every time.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:17 pm

It reminds me when I was younger and did my exams in bass trombone playing. I had to play many strange things and one was the Ralph Waughan Williams tuba concert. It went ok and I got in fact a high score on my exam. Fun to play and I enjoyed practicing that piece. But I always liked this piece better on tuba. I remember i listen it a lot to all tuba players and asked my self how to make it close a "tuba style" on my bass trombone. I never figured it out. The short staccato notes in first and third movement is hard to make sing like the tuba can do. The second movement is probably great on any instrument, but it really make more sense when a great tuba player sing that melody in that high register. Its like its too comfortable on a bass trombone.

I played lot in brass quintet and i think lot of baroque music and older music is fine whatever bass instrument we use. Music from that time was often played on whatever instrument available. But more modern music like the Ewald brass quintets is better on tuba in my ears.

In big bands i never liked to play with, or listen the tuba. Especial when it is a bass guitar in the picture. In small jazz bands a tuba is so great. But also a bass trombone can be...tuba and bass trombone are definitely two different instruments. Same as a baritone sax a bass clarinet is different. We all can play any bass part, but.....it depends.

Leif

ttf_JP · Post by **ttf_JP** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:07 pm

Quote from: savio on Jun 24, 2017, 05:17PMI played lot in brass quintet and i think lot of baroque music and older music is fine whatever bass instrument we use. Music from that time was often played on whatever instrument available. But more modern music like the Ewald brass quintets is better on tuba in my ears.
Leif
Exactly what I would've said, Baroque and music earlier than that used just about any bass instrument that was available but Romantic era and later music that specified tuba really should be played on tuba.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:16 pm

My reply is to "Savio" , who mentioned his being required to play the Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto as an exam piece. To consider that as suitable repertoire for bass trombone is quite amazing to me !
I was a classmate of Roger Bobo, an absolutely remarkable tuba player who performed the Vaughan Williams Concerto for his "Performers Degree" with The Eastman-Rochester Orchestra at The Eastman School of Music in 1959. I still own a reel-to-reel recording of that performance. I used to play it for friends and would ask them what instrument was playing the solo part. They would always struggle to identify the soloist because they were certain that a tuba couldn't move as fluently as Roger did, and a euphonium couldn't play so aggressively in the lower register ---- so what the Hell instrument was the soloist playing ? Everyone was amazed to hear that it was a tuba.
He performed it on his beloved Heisner tuba which was rapidly approaching the end of its useful life. He became the first US representative of The Mirafone Company during his quest for a replacement for that iconic "axe".
Roger played in the Concertgebow Orchestra in Amsterdam for several years before moving back home to The Los Angeles Philharmonic. He came to The Eastman School as a freshman and was engaged as the tuba player in The Rochester Philharmonic in the same year. What an amazing talent !
The second movement of the concerto is, indeed, a gorgeous melody that could be interpreted handsomely by many instruments, bass or otherwise. We are SO fortunate to be musicians ! Embrace that reality ---- . Cheers !! Bob

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:08 am

:

pant:Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on Jun 24, 2017, 09:16PMMy reply is to "Savio" , who mentioned his being required to play the Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto as an exam piece. To consider that as suitable repertoire for bass trombone is quite amazing to me !
I was a classmate of Roger Bobo, an absolutely remarkable tuba player who performed the Vaughan Williams Concerto for his "Performers Degree" with The Eastman-Rochester Orchestra at The Eastman School of Music in 1959. I still own a reel-to-reel recording of that performance. I used to play it for friends and would ask them what instrument was playing the solo part. They would always struggle to identify the soloist because they were certain that a tuba couldn't move as fluently as Roger did, and a euphonium couldn't play so aggressively in the lower register ---- so what the Hell instrument was the soloist playing ? Everyone was amazed to hear that it was a tuba.
He performed it on his beloved Heisner tuba which was rapidly approaching the end of its useful life. He became the first US representative of The Mirafone Company during his quest for a replacement for that iconic "axe".
Roger played in the Concertgebow Orchestra in Amsterdam for several years before moving back home to The Los Angeles Philharmonic. He came to The Eastman School as a freshman and was engaged as the tuba player in The Rochester Philharmonic in the same year. What an amazing talent !
The second movement of the concerto is, indeed, a gorgeous melody that could be interpreted handsomely by many instruments, bass or otherwise. We are SO fortunate to be musicians ! Embrace that reality ---- . Cheers !! Bob

ttf_Woolworth · Post by **ttf_Woolworth** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:58 am

When I write a tuba part (for big band) I mean for it to be played on a tuba! Tuba writing and bass trombone writing are different. The instruments are played differently and sound different. They are not interchangeable.

In my band, with 5 trombone books, the 5th book contains parts for both bass trombone and tuba. The composers knew what they were doing and what sounds they wanted. It's not up to the player.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:53 am

Quote from: Woolworth on Yesterday at 07:58 AM...

In my band, with 5 trombone books, the 5th book contains parts for both bass trombone and tuba. The composers knew what they were doing and what sounds they wanted. It's not up to the player.

Then please explain why I have a chart supposedly written for the Tonight Show orchestra where the 4th part switches from bass trombone to tuba in about 1 beat? That's a change I can't do. Did Doc have two players there side by side to cover the tuba and trombone parts? FWIW, the "tuba" parts are basically the bits in the bass trombone range.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:06 am

Rich, that depends on the context! Certainly you don't find Ravel's orchestration of Tableaux d'une exposition to be in poor taste. That is certainly a far cry from solo piano, afterall

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:12 am

Been following this topic since last week, lots of interesting thoughts here....
I'm tossing it around in my mind, because to me this is like telling the lead player to perform his part on flugel. Or maybe using electric bass in place of acoustic in orchestral music. It's a somewhat similar idea in terms of range, but style and tone are completely different in such a way that, to me, would completely change (destroy?) the intentions of the composer. Especially when I think of bass trombone in big band - to me, tuba in rhythmic big band music has a DRASTICALLY different effect than bass trombone. Still a very cool sound, but not so similar to bass trombone, given how much mellower and more enveloping the sound is in comparison to the bass trombone's bite.

Then again, I've had success recording flugel in place of F-horn, using careful mic placement and pos-processing. But even then, the sound isn't *quite* what I would have used if I HAD an F-horn - but it worked in a pinch.
Cool topic!

ttf_rdalton · Post by **ttf_rdalton** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:17 am

When we had no tuba for a rehearsal in my brass ensemble, we tried using bass trombone. Another time we used Eb tuba (not quite as heavy in sound as a Bb or C tuba). The Eb tuba was far more acceptable than the bass trombone.

The bass trombone can play the correct range, however the concept and weight of the sound is much different. Everyone in the group agreed. Definitely not interchangeable.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:41 am

How about a euphonium instead of a bass trombone?

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:29 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Yesterday at 08:53 AMThen please explain why I have a chart supposedly written for the Tonight Show orchestra where the 4th part switches from bass trombone to tuba in about 1 beat? That's a change I can't do. Did Doc have two players there side by side to cover the tuba and trombone parts? FWIW, the "tuba" parts are basically the bits in the bass trombone range.

Might be a studio chart, although, it wouldn't be the first time a composer wrote something that was difficult to accomloshed.

ttf_Woolworth · Post by **ttf_Woolworth** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Yesterday at 08:53 AMThen please explain why I have a chart supposedly written for the Tonight Show orchestra where the 4th part switches from bass trombone to tuba in about 1 beat? That's a change I can't do. Did Doc have two players there side by side to cover the tuba and trombone parts? FWIW, the "tuba" parts are basically the bits in the bass trombone range.

Unless it's a very old chart from the Skitch Henderson days, the "Tonight Show" band only used three trombones and never a tuba (that I'm aware of). You might have a "published" chart written for standard instrumentation. Changing to tuba in one beat? That's an editorial problem. Any good arranger knows it's not practical.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:15 pm

This is in response to Bruce Guttman's post about the "Tonight Show" chart that had an impossible change from bass bone to tuba. I remember playing a piece in the NSO with one of the Exxon Arts assistant conductors that had a change from open to muted in one beat--- AND --- had a page turn as well. We all know that the page turn can be eliminated with the use of a scanner and printer [at the time it was a Xerox machine !] but the mute change ? Especially when you're totally entangled with the double trigger system of a bass bone, a one beat mute change is not NEARLY impossible, it IS impossible ! When I mentioned it to the conductor and asked if it might be possible to either eliminate the mute for that passage, or put the mute in earlier where there were rests, he replied, "It can be done" ! I imagined having my own "Mute Person" who would sit next to me and be in charge of "Sordine Management" ! When I asked HOW it could be done, his reply was. "It must be possible --- the composer wrote it !" So much for the wisdom of young conductors. This is one of the reasons that there are so many jokes about conductors --- in most cases, they have no real experience as an orchestral musician --- just a solitary pianist studying scores who never considered the fact that wind players have to BREATHE ! Another conductor VS reality instance comes to mind during a recording session of "Boris Godunov", but is totally off subject -- so -- Cheers to all ! Bob

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:51 am

Quote from: hyperbolica on Yesterday at 11:41 AMHow about a euphonium instead of a bass trombone?
A euphonium and Bass Trombone have similar ranges, but they don't sound identical. There are things a trombone does well (ie: glisses) that you can only approximate on a Euphonium. The Euphonium has a more mellow broader tone than the Bass trombone, with less bite to it. A good euphonium player who is familiar with bass trombone tone and what it's expected to sound like can come close but it won't be identical. Again it would be better than not having the part covered, but not quite an exact replacement (although it probably would be closer than the other substitutions, we've discussed).

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:47 am

Quote from: Radar on Jun 29, 2017, 04:51AMA euphonium and Bass Trombone have similar ranges, but they don't sound identical. There are things a trombone does well (ie: glisses) that you can only approximate on a Euphonium. The Euphonium has a more mellow broader tone than the Bass trombone, with less bite to it. A good euphonium player who is familiar with bass trombone tone and what it's expected to sound like can come close but it won't be identical. Again it would be better than not having the part covered, but not quite an exact replacement (although it probably would be closer than the other substitutions, we've discussed).

I believe he meant using a euph in place of a tuba, but I could be mistaken.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:01 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 29, 2017, 05:47AMI believe he meant using a euph in place of a tuba, but I could be mistaken.
Yeah, that's what I meant, although I didn't say it directly. The Euph sounds more tuba - ish, and a 4-valve has most of the range needed, but I'm better with a slide than valves. The setting is quintet, music not yet selected, sounds more classical than jazz.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:06 am

Quote from: hyperbolica on Jun 29, 2017, 07:01AMYeah, that's what I meant, although I didn't say it directly. The Euph sounds more tuba - ish, and a 4-valve has most of the range needed, but I'm better with a slide than valves. The setting is quintet, music not yet selected, sounds more classical than jazz.

I've always weighed the idea of finding/renting a 4-valve euph and seeing how it'd perform on recordings with a huge mouthpiece (1.5G) playing primarily in the pedal range. I should do it and see.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:15 am

It sounds like a bright tuba! I had a Euph for a while, I even did some masters degree work on it. I did end up selling it though since there's about a 0% chance I'll ever do a gig on it anyway and if I really wanted that timbre, I'd get a tuba from Mack Brass or Wessex for around the same price I'd get a similar quality Euph. BBb tuba is really fun. Been eyeing the Mack Brass miraphone clone for awhile now...

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:38 am

Quote from: davdud101 on Jun 29, 2017, 08:06AMI've always weighed the idea of finding/renting a 4-valve euph and seeing how it'd perform on recordings with a huge mouthpiece (1.5G) playing primarily in the pedal range. I should do it and see.

Note that there is a big difference between a 4 valve non-compensating and a 4 valve compensating euph. The fingerings for the lower notes on a non-compensating are not the same as you would think for the lower register. A compensating euph gives better intonation with standard fingerings but some are kind of odd and need some serious lipping or valve slide adjustment. Also, you can't hit low B natural on a non-compensating euph. Also, a compensating euph has a big cost delta over a non compensating. Full disclosure: I play a Conn 19I (same as King 2280) non-compensating.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:14 am

I've got the Wessex Dolce, so its compensating. I just need more flexibility on the valves.

ttf_fsung · Post by **ttf_fsung** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:27 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 29, 2017, 09:38AMAlso, a compensating euph has a big cost delta over a non compensating.
Only if you're restricting the comparison to non-stencil mfgs. New Dillon/Mack/JZ/Wessex/JP Sterling compensators are price-competitive with used Yammy 321s.

ttf_fsung · Post by **ttf_fsung** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:46 am

Quote from: davdud101 on Jun 29, 2017, 08:06AMI've always weighed the idea of finding/renting a 4-valve euph and seeing how it'd perform on recordings with a huge mouthpiece (1.5G) playing primarily in the pedal range. I should do it and see.

Don't bother. Yeah, you get big, fat, easy pedals but they ain't gonna sound good and are going to be crazy flat. (Don't ask me how I know.

)

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:05 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 29, 2017, 05:47AMI believe he meant using a euph in place of a tuba, but I could be mistaken.

A euphonium is a very poor replacement for a Tuba, Although the ranges overlap the Tuba is one octave lower than the Euphonium and a Euphonium in the lowest register utilizing the 4th valve doesn't speak like a tuba. If you know how to play Euphonium it isn't that much of an adjustment to learn tuba, invest in a Student size tuba 3/4 Tuba (there are quite a few decent 3 valve tubas out there relatively cheap) and learn to cover the parts on Tuba.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:55 am

Tenor trombone and bass trombone are different, if there is a bass trombone available for the bass trombone part it is better played on bass trombone.
And vica versa.

Some very good arrengers wrote tuba parts, and changed it to basstrombone when they heard the result.
And vica versa.

Sometimes a written tuba part could be played on euphonium. Maybe even better.

Sometimes the part is marked tuba, but should actually be played on trombone. (some Verdi music is marked tuba, but was originally written "cimbasso")

Sometimes the bass trombone part is marked "muta in tuba" for some bars and the back to trombone.

Sometimes there is some mute problems that is impossible to solve, don´t ask the conductor, just do what works. (Cellibidace famous conductor of the Swedish Radio Symphony orch. in the 70th when told about a mute problem said: Well, can you look like you play muted?

)

Much renaissance musik is written for 2 cornetts and 3 sackbuts sound better with basstrombone on the 5th part. Often played on tuba, sound out of place to me.

If you have no choise tuba and basstrombone are interchangeble, no they don´t sound the same.

Sometimes I have gotten parts marked tuba, and together with the composer decided it was better on basstrombone, and vice versa.

Sometimes I have been playing contrabass trombone when it actually could have been played just as good on bass trombone. But since the the money was much better I played it on contrabass.