Why Jazz Masters Only Play Small Mouthpieces?

[Fgal409]

I had question since i started playing the Trombone 8 years ago, i only listen and play jazz stuff, Solo, Combo, and Big Band Lead.
So the sound that i always wanted is that of a Bright but yet mellow tone that great jazz players had, especially focusing on the high register. (My references are: Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and Tommy Dosrey)

I dont know much about mouthpieces, but i always wandered why they all play such small mouthpieces (such as 11C, 12C 15C etc.) if the general principle is that larger rims are better overall for the most majority.
Since last year i play on a Warburton 10M which i was gifted, (around a 6.5A size) and although i like the comfort, its impossible to get that old school jazz kind sound. I think the sound is too big, and endurance is not that good either.
Before that i played a 7C.

Last week i tried an Urbie Green Jet Tone? Mouthpiece at a shop and it was awful, super small and unfocused sound, except high range.

PS: Yesterday i ve found two videos of Doug Elliot playing a solo over Blues in hoss Flat and a Ballad called "Too Little Time" and i loved them. It's amazing how he can get that jazz sound out of such big mouthpieces!

[harrisonreed]

(My references are: Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and Tommy Dosrey)

I dont know much about mouthpieces, but i always wandered why they all play such small mouthpieces (such as 11C, 12C 15C etc.) if the general principle is that larger rims are better overall for the most majority.

Those guys aren't "the majority". Also the way they were miked live and how they were recorded has at least a little bit to do with how they sound to you. But they were all monster musicians.

The reason they sounded so good on such small equipment is related to why those are three of the biggest names. A ton of hard work, musical ability, synergy with the instruments that were available, and naturally great sounds.

[OneTon]

WW2 changed the world and the US, forever. A huge part if winning that war was an unprecedented explosion in production and the use of resources. The new paradigm became, “If a little bit is good, a whole lot is better.” Ben Hogan was probably the first golfer to go out and hit in excess of 700 balls on a range, every day. Before that, “practice” was hitting one or two buckets of balls to warm up, playing 18 holes, and heading to the clubhouse for a beer.

The same attitude became more the norm in jazz than it may previously have been. Doug Elliott is the best source, but if you were lucky enough to get into North Texas State, the competition was fierce and people practiced a lot. Guys like Steve Turre and Gordon Wycliffe play larger equipment because they paid their dues in practice rooms. And some mere mortals came to a realization that somewhat larger mouthpieces could be used.

All that said, a mouthpiece is one piece in a pie that includes how we use our air and what is in our heads. When I first acquired a YSL-697Z, I canvassed Yamaha artists regarding what lubricant to use on the slide, and what mouthpiece they were using. Alistair McKay and Ian McDougall indicated various mouthpieces around the Schilke 47 and Bach 11C would work. Mr. McDougall said whatever I chose, stick with one, and “blow.” People like Doug Elliott are invaluable resources as well. The current norm may be to use larger mouthpieces.

[Doug Elliott]

Tradition.

[BGuttman]

If all you want to do is play high, the small mouthpieces are OK. But today you need to sound great all over the horn. Hence we advocate a good general purpose mouthpiece like the 7C or 6½AL.

That great tone comes from copious practice including (ugh) LONG TONES. And lots of concentration on technique. The guidance of a good teacher helps you get there. The days of a self-taught player are long over.

[Bach5G]

Partly because they tend to play smaller horns. King 2Bs and 3Bs, Bach 12s and 16s etc.

[BGuttman]

Partly because they tend to play smaller horns. King 2Bs and 3Bs, Bach 12s and 16s etc.

Smaller Bachs: 6, 8, 9. Also Conn 4H and 6H.

All of these are great for high parts in Big Band and not really appropriate for many of the groups most students (or amateurs) find themselves playing in.

[Fgal409]

(My references are: Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and Tommy Dosrey)

I dont know much about mouthpieces, but i always wandered why they all play such small mouthpieces (such as 11C, 12C 15C etc.) if the general principle is that larger rims are better overall for the most majority.

Those guys aren't "the majority". Also the way they were miked live and how they were recorded has at least a little bit to do with how they sound to you. But they were all monster musicians.

The reason they sounded so good on such small equipment is related to why those are three of the biggest names. A ton of hard work, musical ability, synergy with the instruments that were available, and naturally great sounds.

What i don't get is: Why they still play on such small equipment, if most trombonists (supposedly) can benefit from a bigger rim, and cup on the long run.
If small mouthpieces make low range unusable and thin, how can one practice on those and still get a good sound.

I can understand that being miked makes the difference and one can play very smooth with a thin sound and still sound good, but how do they benefit using a 12C if all range sounds better on a 6.75C or a Conn 3? (for example).

[Fgal409]

WW2 changed the world and the US, forever. A huge part if winning that war was an unprecedented explosion in production and the use of resources. The new paradigm became, “If a little bit is good, a whole lot is better.” Ben Hogan was probably the first golfer to go out and hit in excess of 700 balls on a range, every day. Before that, “practice” was hitting one or two buckets of balls to warm up, playing 18 holes, and heading to the clubhouse for a beer.

The same attitude became more the norm in jazz than it may previously have been. Doug Elliott is the best source, but if you were lucky enough to get into North Texas State, the competition was fierce and people practiced a lot. Guys like Steve Turre and Gordon Wycliffe play larger equipment because they paid their dues in practice rooms. And some mere mortals came to a realization that somewhat larger mouthpieces could be used.

All that said, a mouthpiece is one piece in a pie that includes how we use our air and what is in our heads. When I first acquired a YSL-697Z, I canvassed Yamaha artists regarding what lubricant to use on the slide, and what mouthpiece they were using. Alistair McKay and Ian McDougall indicated various mouthpieces around the Schilke 47 and Bach 11C would work. Mr. McDougall said whatever I chose, stick with one, and “blow.” People like Doug Elliott are invaluable resources as well. The current norm may be to use larger mouthpieces.

Of course! Playing sticking with one and practice to not mess your embouchure sounds like the right way, but how can most jazz figures recommend using mouthpieces in the 7C and 11C range, when sound is more rounded playing on a 6.75C for example. Or maybe someone needs a 3 Rim and can't even play at all on anything smaller.
The only reason i can imagine is the high range endurance.

I didn't know Wycliffe Gordon played on large pieces, i always thought he played a 11C, which mouthpiece does he use?

[Fgal409]

If all you want to do is play high, the small mouthpieces are OK. But today you need to sound great all over the horn. Hence we advocate a good general purpose mouthpiece like the 7C or 6½AL.

That great tone comes from copious practice including (ugh) LONG TONES. And lots of concentration on technique. The guidance of a good teacher helps you get there. The days of a self-taught player are long over.

So, if someone plays mostly above the staff the rule is that he should be using something like a 12C or a 17C? Even though the small rim destroys low range and tone?
I ve never seen someone play lead on something like a 6 1/2AL.
The only reason i imagine is the endurance on the high range, its nearly impossible too mantain a good sound for a long time playing high on a 5 Rim.

But i agree that today the middle range is more used nowadays and its important to keep a good sound there.
My problem with range is mostly endurance and precision, mostly attacking or playing a high note right after i put the mouthpiece on my lips. (Its almost certain i will hit a partial lower)

Partly because they tend to play smaller horns. King 2Bs and 3Bs, Bach 12s and 16s etc.

Smaller Bachs: 6, 8, 9. Also Conn 4H and 6H.

All of these are great for high parts in Big Band and not really appropriate for many of the groups most students (or amateurs) find themselves playing in.

Do you think a Conn 4H or a Bach 6 can work for 1st parts on big bands? I ve heard those were played mostly on sweet jazz bands or ballroom dance bands from britain, and with mouthpieces such as 17C or 22C.
I Know Glenn Miller played a Bach 6 but i have no clue what size of mouthpiece he used.

[AndrewMeronek]

If small mouthpieces make low range unusable and thin, how can one practice on those and still get a good sound.

I can understand that being miked makes the difference and one can play very smooth with a thin sound and still sound good, but how do they benefit using a 12C if all range sounds better on a 6.75C or a Conn 3? (for example).

Small does not mean thin, until you get to extremes.

But even if this were the case, whatever someone might mean by "thin" is not necessarily bad. There is a whole spectrum of possible tambral concepts that are all OK.

Unless someone is pursuing a job where they have to sound exactly like the previous trombone player who specialized in cranking out Wagner or something. I would consider that to be highly specialized and not a good basis for generalizations about preferred trombone sounds.

[Bach5G]

Wycliffe (Pickett Blackburn):

‘Master: When you’re playing The Master, you are playing the EXACT mouthpiece Wycliffe is playing: on stage, on screen, on the recordings. Full sound, open feel, and flexible like, well, Wycliffe himself. Balanced mass coupled with a comfortable rim results in a responsive and incredibly natural playing mouthpiece. Small tenor shank, rim diameter of 26.1 mm, and Comparable in size to a Bach 5G, Schilke 51, or Wick 6AL.’

[Klimchak]

Regarding Pickett sizing….they measure in a different spot than others. So, even though it says 26.1 mm, they feel much smaller than that. I have a Pickett 5 for small and large horn that are supposed to measure 1.024” (4ish sized) and they feel smaller than 6.5 sized rims.

[tbonesullivan]

Regarding Pickett sizing….they measure in a different spot than others. So, even though it says 26.1 mm, they feel much smaller than that. I have a Pickett 5 for small and large horn that are supposed to measure 1.024” (4ish sized) and they feel smaller than 6.5 sized rims.

I always did wonder why they have mouthpieces that are listed as 25.9 rim diameter that compare to a 6.5AL. I also always wonder why they have removable rims, but each rim can only work with a specific cup/shank. I guess if you want the rounder rim, that's how you get it. Their regular line "on paper" seems to be one size larger than all of the Bach sizes.

[harrisonreed]

Wycliffe (Pickett Blackburn):

‘Master: When you’re playing The Master, you are playing the EXACT mouthpiece Wycliffe is playing

Well, that's obviously a lie, lol. I can picture Wycliffe opening his case:

"That's the 17th time this WEEK! Who keeps taking my mouthpiece?? Dammit Blackburn!"

Later that same day

"Ah it's back! Thank g- ... Dammit! It smells like dip spit and cheep booze!"

[OneTon]

One size does not fit all. I was playing lead on a 0.500 inch bore Yamaha 653. I was getting a nice fat sound with it. My mentor told me lead would be easier on a smaller bore horn. And he was right. I have since played lead on a Bach LT6, 697Z, and now mostly 2B. A 4H will work well, too. Bach 11C and 12C mouthpieces, and close derivatives, may enjoy a sweet spot with those horns as well as jazz in general. I have a strong low E with a Bach MV 11C. Some people may not. I tried Alan Kaplan’s Kanstul 12C and gave it to my 2nd player. He loves it.

I am an old guy. That equipment got used because it works. Some people are still using it. Some have or will move on. What works for you most probably depends on your teachers and peers, your physique, and what sounds good to you. I can’t predict that. Good luck.

[Matt K]

There’s a bit of selection bias. There are n number of people who are prodigies at the trombone in the world. Then there are n - m people who naturally work on say, an 11C. If all that is realistically available is the Bach lineup, you’ll (probably) still end up with Rosolinos and Greens and Johnsons etc. but you’d probably end with with more of more options are available and that’s largely what we find, through the demand for that type of music is much less than it once was.

I think George Roberts might exemplify this. He’s stated that he switched to bass because he couldn’t dream of doing the things Urbie did on the instrument. But he’s one of the most revered bass trombonists of all time, if not the most of all time. I wonder the degree to which he was able to do the things he did was because he wasn’t as physiologically compatible with the smaller rim sizes popular when he switched and worked well on the larger pieces available, albeit “small” by contemporary standards for bass

[Posaunus]

The world has changed since the heyday of "Urbie Green, Bill Watrous and Tommy Dosrey." These "jazz masters" played on equipment that is no longer used by many current "masters" or (in Watrous's case), played in a style rather different from most jazz players. VERY few jazz players that I know of still play on a Bach 12C (or 15C). [Are you aware of any?]

Many of today's "jazz masters" still play relatively small-bore (0.500" or thereabouts) trombones, and often use mouthpieces (not always Bach, for sure) that have rather shallow cups - because this facilitates playing in the very high range that they seem to specialize in. And quite a few of them play on more modern-design trombones, with "specialty" leadpipes, that were simply not available in the past.

I like to think that, thanks to some well-known mouthpiece innovators, we are much more sophisticated about mouthpiece design and manufacture, and therefore sound production, than was the case as little as 20 years ago.

[hyperbolica]

Attitudes about mouthpieces are changing. Part of the problem with old Bach pieces was that the rim scaled with the cup. If you wanted a smaller cup, you automatically got a smaller rim, there wasn't a choice, and we all assumed it should work that way.

I think a lot of manufacturers and players have discovered it shouldn't work that way. The rim fits your face, the cup fits the sound you want to make and the shank fits the horn. That's how I look at it anyway. It's an oversimplification, but it gives you a great place to start.

You can practice any combination, good or bad, into submission, and if you practice long and hard enough, it might actually work. But to make it easier and more consistent, get a good match. Don't worry about what Dorsey did. If I were looking for a classic sound with modern mouthpiece, I'd play a Conn 24h with a DE XT104C2. That's roughly a Bach 3g rim with a 12c cup. And if you're a sub-500 bore Conn lover, the 24h is really where it's at.

[Rusty]

A note on the Wycliffe Master mouthpiece, I recently had one and spoke with Pickett about it, and it’s based on a vintage small shank Bach 5G. Compared to their 2 piece standard range mouthpieces that do feel small, this definitely felt like a 5G sized piece, perhaps even bigger due to quite a narrow rim. It blew very open and had a great sound, but I found it a bit too open and the rim was a little uncomfortable, so I returned it.

[CharlieB]

"Why Jazz Masters Only Play Small Mouthpieces?"

Not always true.
Urbie Green, Curtis Fuller, and Andy Martin played on Equa-Tru mouthpieces.
Rim= 0.980". Deep cup and 0.238" bore.
A mouthpiece is a highly individual thing that needs to match the anatomy of the player's embouchure, and the sound in his head.
The advice of a pro is helpful to get you in the ballpark. With that as a baseline, you then need to try everythnig and use what works.

[harrisonreed]

I'm doubtful that a small bore mouthpiece can physically have a .380" throat. Where are you getting that spec from?

Also a .98" rim is tiny, even if the cup is deepish.

Ah, nvm. .238" makes a lot more sense.

[BGuttman]

I'm doubtful that a small bore mouthpiece can physically have a .380" throat. Where are you getting that spec from?

...

Absolutely. I had a Rudy Muck 23 that appeared to have been bored out and it had a 0.250" (6.4 mm) aperture (took an E drill).

[CharlieB]

I'm doubtful that a small bore mouthpiece can physically have a .380" throat. Where are you getting that spec from?
Ah, nvm. .238" makes a lot more sense.

Rats !
I fixed that typo ASAP, but harrisonreed was too fast for me.

The OP is looking for a mouthpiece that has a " Bright but yet mellow tone."
An H.N. White Equa-Tru will do that. I have one, and I love it.
With a bore of 0.238, a rim of 0.980, and a deep cup, it is only slightly larger than a Bach 7, but plays much bigger.
These have been out of production for many years, but they're still common on Ebay.

[Doug Elliott]

"With a bore of 0.038"
Another typo, I'm sure you mean .238

[SteveM]

I'll offer some opinions that are sure to be very unpopular...

The volume of the mouthpiece cup, which is dependent on the rim diameter, as well as the depth and contour of the cup, is a primary influence on the trombone sound. Traditionally, players have chosen a mouthpiece that gives them the sound they want, as well as meeting other requirements such as range and articulation.

I don't believe, as some have suggested, that the rim diameter of the trombone mouthpiece doesn't matter, as long as the cup, throat and backbore are right. The cup volume has to be a good match for the length and bore of the of tubing, in order to produce an optimal sound. That's why tuba mouthpieces are huge and trumpet mouthpieces are tiny by comparison.

An oboe player wouldn't think of using an English horn reed but doing so would be comparable to a trombone player using a 6 1/2 AL on a King 2B.

I'm always surprised when people say they choose a larger mouthpiece because it "fits my face". Does this mean that the same person could not play a trumpet or French horn, since those mouthpieces are much smaller and couldn't possibly fit their face?

It would be good to keep in mind that, during the era when the sound of the trombone was most appealing to the largest audience of music listeners (let's say the 1930s and 1940s) mouthpieces were far smaller. Shouldn't that tell us something?

[BGuttman]

...

I'm always surprised when people say they choose a larger mouthpiece because it "fits my face". Does this mean that the same person could not play a trumpet or French horn, since those mouthpieces are much smaller and couldn't possibly fit their face?

...

In my case, yes. Always had trouble trying to play French horn, alto horn, trumpet, and cornet.

Also have trouble playing large tuba mouthpieces. I play Helleberg style mouthpieces when playing tuba. They have small rims and are very deep.

[Matt K]

FWIW, I find that large rims work well for me on those instruments as well. On trumpet I use a "1" sized rim and on horn I actually have the same rim grafted on a horn underpart. I haven't played a BBb or CC tuba in like 10 years but I did briefly and used a 1.32" rim on it. I'm a very, very high placement player and I think that has quite a bit to do with it.

[Doug Elliott]

The issue is not literally "fitting your face." It's a matter of embouchure mechanics, and what works better for different embouchures. Some embouchures function very well on the traditional "smaller mouthpieces on a small bore horn." Others really don't function well at all that way and actually need a larger diameter which helps everything including high range to function better.

[harrisonreed]

The wider rim increasing cup volume might actually not be as big a deal as you think, Steve. The wider rim will naturally allow more of your chops to go into the cup. It might negate itself.

[Doug Elliott]

Yeah I was going to mention that too.
And since Steve also brought up articulation, a "too small" rim diameter also commonly causes splatty articulation that clears up on a bigger rim.

[CharlieB]

"With a bore of 0.038"
Another typo, I'm sure you mean .238

Thanks.
Fixed it.

[Matt K]

Doug, I really want a .038" small shank to try now

[CharlieB]

Doug doesn't stock these.
Available by special order only.
The result of a design specification done by a dyslexic typist.