New horn - small bore Bb/G

[Windmill]

Hello

I'd just like to share with you the new horn I assembled this last month. I always wanted a small bore trombone with a G attachment and a Hagmann rotor. As I managed to buy one from them, I went on and got the parts together.

I started with a Courtois 150 as a main Horn. 70s, "big" small bore and still pretty common out here in France. Very good horn. Dismantled it totally to work on the slide and fit the valve in. Had to spend a bit of time on the slide receiver assembly though I replaced the original flare with a King Tempo (the one 2B-shaped and heavy built, originally nickel plated).
It plays like a dream, I just became a huge fan of the Hagmann rotor I left it raw without finish, except the bell.

[imsevimse]

Cool! Share your experience with the G-valve when you get used to it.

/Tom

[Burgerbob]

No issues with slide/valve clearance?

[MichaelMedrick]

Hello!

Nice build!

I attached a photo of my modified Bach 36 I have had for a while. I too have a G valve and find it very useful for many playing situations. I like Have a really low D in 7th much better than the nearly useless low C from F attachments.

Best,
Michael Medrick

[AtomicClock]

I attached a photo

Ugh. How I hate those yellow pencils! Shame it's mounted on such a nice horn.

[Windmill]

I really enjoy the G valve for phrasing down there, and go smoothly around the Db/C/B. The Db in 2nd position is really a big plus compared to a F Attachment. I can use the same positions like an octave above, that's cool. Actually I see this modification in terms of phrasing smoothness, rather than playing low notes. This is a small bore anyway...

No problem with the slide clearance. I was afraid it'd be too narrow but that's ok. I'm a small-built human, that helps !

[Sesquitone]

Hello

I'd just like to share with you the new horn I assembled this last month. I always wanted a small bore trombone with a G attachment and a Hagmann rotor. As I managed to buy one from them, I went on and got the parts together.

Hello, Windmill:

Congratulations on choosing (by far!) the best relative tuning--minor third--for enhanced slide facility in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register as the main design objective! As opposed to a tuning primarily designed to extend the low register down towards pedals. The conventional P4 attachment (Bb/F) offers (only) four handy attachment alternates within the standard tenor range (with the same sound-path length as their slide-alone counterparts)--seven alternates in total up from E2. A major-third attachment (Bb/Gb) offers several more attachment alternates--often used (with the finger-trigger valve) by inline dual-valve bass-trombone players: nine attachment alternates with the same sound-path length as their side-alone counterparts; fifteen in total up from E2. But the minor-third offers up to twenty-two (!) extremely useful attachment alternates in that range (not counting pedals): sixteen G-attachment alternates with the same sound-path length as their slide-alone counterparts. As seen from the ETSP (Equitempered-Tone/Slide-Position) Chart, below, the minor-third attachment is very easy to learn because:

(1) The attachment third harmonic, D3 in attachment first position, mimics (an octave lower) the slide-alone fifth harmonic, D4 in first position--with exactly the same nominal positions, and
(2) The attachment second and fourth harmonics, G2 and G3 in attachment first position, respectively, mimic (in lower octaves) the slide-alone seventh harmonic, G4 being the highest available (equitempered) tone on that harmonic--with essentially the same nominal slide positions.
(3) Also, the upper portion of the attachment fifth harmonic is often very useful, especially in sharp keys.

Because of the uniform interleaving of attachment and slide-alone harmonics, any lick that can be played with facile slide motion in the range above slide-alone fourth harmonic can now be played an octave lower (or more) with virtually the same (nominal) slide positions.

As many folks here know, I have been trying to promote the wider adoption of the (single-valve) minor-third (sesquitone) attachment for well over sixty years--with a strength of advocacy perhaps second only to that of the late Alan Charlesworth. In the late 1950s, Mark McDunn worked with Holton to produce a Bb/G instrument (TR-650 "Collegiate" model) for young beginning students (with short arms)--since the full tenor range can be covered within (only) four (attachment) positions. This had a full-length slide, which is not necessary. A shorter slide (with the missing length made up in the bell) would have been much lighter and the instrument much better balanced for young players. [I once owned a patent for such an instrument--long expired.] Although the TR-650 was (and is) a "reasonably" well-playing instrument, Holton did not produce a corresponding "professional" Bb/G model that would have been attractive to teachers; so that particular idea never quite caught on.

The minor-third tuning works well for alto: Eb/C. Also for an inline dual-valve bass: Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double); the E attachment is tuned 20¢ sharp, giving a perfectly in-tune D double. Or a continuously chromatic tenor--my original inline prototype was a converted Conn 88H tuned Bb/G-E-D, built in Bob Giardinelli's famous shop by Jack Onqué in 1971. And Bb/G-Eb-Db is another good option. And, of course, we can see this thumb-trigger-operated valve in the "European" tuning of the Thein and Haag contras: F/D-Bb-Ab. [I would very much like to see a "real" bass trombone tuned G/E-C#-B or G/E-C-Bb, as well.]

**********

Windmill, if you privately email me a convenient postal address, I would be very happy to send you some printed information on the minor-third tuning. Please use my office email, below (not the family email listed in my profile).

Benny Leonard
[email protected]

PS I missed your most recent post. I see that you find the "octave equivalents" useful--as I have explained.


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[Matt K]

One my my dreams is a Hagmann (or double Hagmanns) on my 607F/3508Y small bore setup for… reasons. This looks awesome. Assuming you used a .530 rotor and tube?

[Windmill]

Yes, it's their smallest model, the one they use for Bach36... Works for small bores with a wide open gooseneck.

[hyperbolica]

That's a thing of beauty, but my neck hurts looking at it. I'll bet it sounds great, though.

[imsevimse]

Here is my Gerdt mod. 216 Bb/G .500 TIS tenor trombone

[EZSlider]

I love it! I use my G valve on my bass way more than the F.. Would love to do this on my 891z but would for sure need to widen the slide..
EZ

[Sesquitone]

I love it! I use my G valve on my bass way more than the F.. Would love to do this on my 891z but would for sure need to widen the slide..
EZ

There's an easy fix for narrow slides that tend to cause the gooseneck (and valve, is there is one) to uncomfortably press against the player's jaw or neck: an angled-shank mouthpiece.

A skilled technician can easily cut a small wedge-shaped notch right at the throat of the mouthpiece; then, with an appropriate amount of heat, bend it slightly at that point (about 15º for a small-bore tenor, about 12º for a bass); then seal with a touch of solder (making sure there are no blobs of solder inside). [Some mouthpieces can be bent at an externally narrow throat without notching, simply in combination with heat alone.]

This allows the instrument to be held with the slide pitched up by the respective angle (without any change in embouchure) so that the gooseneck now sits comfortably on the player's shoulder (which lends stability and balance), well below the jaw--a good idea even with wider slides!

Because the apex of the angle is right at the throat, there is absolutely no acoustic disruption of the sound-path that the sound-waves "see".

[Sesquitone]

There's an easy fix for narrow slides that tend to cause the gooseneck (and valve, is there is one) to uncomfortably press against the player's jaw or neck: an angled-shank mouthpiece.

Shorty Rogers used an angled-shank mouthpiece on his flugelhorn, presumably to get better projection--as you can see in the picture below. A less "dramatic" modification than the angled-bell design promoted by Dizzy Gillespie.


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[Sesquitone]

I love it! I use my G valve on my bass way more than the F. Would love to do this on my 891z but would for sure need to widen the slide..
EZ

The G-natural (i.e. minor-third) tuning is indeed more useful than the conventional P4 tuning. And many bass trombonists who use the inline tuning Bb/F(thumb)-G(finger)-"Eb"(double) find that they use the "second" valve more often that the "first" in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register.

Denson Paul Pollard has a very useful video, "Explanation of G valve tuning with musical examples", where he demonstrates the great advantage of this tuning. And before anyone complains about turning the instrument into a "valve trombone", let me point out that the "valve" techniques are very different. On a valve trombone, you can get a "valve legato" in a chromatic run simply by using the valves along the same harmonic. On a slide trombone with attachments, the attachments simply add more available harmonics interspersed between the slide-alone harmonics. Legato phrasing makes use of lip-slurs between different (slide-alone or attachment) harmonics.

But why have the "first" (thumb-trigger-actuated) valve tuned to P4 (other than "convention")? If you start with a clean slate to design an inline dual-valve (bass or tenor) trombone, with slide-alone pitched in Bb, it makes much more sense to use the G-natural tuning on the "first" (thumb-trigger) valve, then another appropriate tuning for the "second" (finger-trigger) so as to give a desired double-trigger tuning. [The position of the valves themselves need not be "first" and "second" in terms of flow direction. In the picture below, the G valve (operated by the thumb trigger) is downstream of the E valve (operated by the finger trigger).]

This way, the inline combination is compatible with a single-valve tenor tuned Bb/G (and a single-valve tenor tuned C/A, and a single-valve alto tuned Eb/C)--each using the minor-third valve actuated by the thumb trigger.

My preference for the bass (or continuously chromatic tenor) is Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double); the E valve is tuned 20¢ sharp, giving a perfectly in-tune D double. Another good tuning is Bb/G-Eb-Db--the same relative tuning as contras tuned F/D-Bb-Ab.



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[Posaunus]

My preference for the bass (or continuously chromatic tenor) is Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double); the E valve is tuned 20¢ sharp, giving a perfectly in-tune D double. Another good tuning is Bb/G-Eb-Db--the same relative tuning as contras tuned F/D-Bb-Ab.

I think that my feeble, aging brain would explode trying to break lifelong habits in order to remember which valves to activate for which notes. I think I'll stay with what I learned 50 years ago (deficient as it may be)!

[EZSlider]

Yes Mr Pollard is responsible for my decision to pursue the G valve. Made a whole lot of sense to me. Having two valves one slide position away from each other did not. I like the idea of the G/E combo too. .
EZ

[Sesquitone]

Yes Mr Pollard is responsible for my decision to pursue the G valve. Made a whole lot of sense to me. Having two valves one slide position away from each other did not. I like the idea of the G/E combo too. .
EZ

The Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double) tuning is probably the most popular inline dual-valve combination. Probable because the double-trigger D positions are closer than with Bb/F-G(natural)-"Eb". As you point out, the F and Gb attachments are 'one slide position away from each other'; and therefore don't make use of "filling in" the missing harmonics between the first and second harmonics of the Bb instrument in an optimal way--as seen quite dramatically in the ETSP Chart, below. In fact a dependent tuning, Bb/F#/D--providing an evenly distributed augmented triad--is "better" in this sense.

The Bb/G-E-D (G minor-sixth tetrad) and Bb/G-Eb-Db (Eb dominant-seventh tetrad) tunings provide much more evenly distributed attachment harmonics, filling in the octave gap between the Bb first and second harmonics.

Compare the interleaving of attachment and slide-alone harmonics of this ETSP Chart with those of my earlier post.



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[Sesquitone]

Deciding on the "best" tuning for a single-valve attachment on a tenor trombone for enhanced slide facility in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register is an interesting exercise in Globally Optimal Design (GOD). [As opposed to extending the lower register down towards pedals in order to fill the tenor gap.]

As is well known, in the octave between the 4th and 8th harmonics of the Bb trombone, slide manipulation is very facile because the harmonics are separated by thirds and seconds. Specifically (in terms of shortest-position equitempered tones): a major-third between the 4th and 5th harmonics (Bb3 - D4); a minor-third between the 5th and 6th harmonics (D4 - F4); a major-second between the 6th and 7th harmonics (F4 - G4); and another minor-third between the 7th and 8th harmonics (G4 - Bb4).

The design objective then becomes: find a (single-valve) attachment tuning that closely approximates the same distribution of harmonics, one octave lower between the 2nd and 4th harmonics. In this case, we are lucky in that there is a unique solution: the minor-third attachment, giving: a major-third between the slide-alone 2nd harmonic and attachment 3rd harmonic (Bb2 - D3); a minor-third between the attachment 3rd harmonic and the slide-alone 3rd harmonic (D3 - F3); a major-second between the slide-alone 3rd harmonic and the attachment 4th harmonic (F3 - G3); and another minor-third between the attachment 4th harmonic and the slide-alone 4th harmonic (G3 - Bb3). And the latter minor-third is also available an octave lower below Bb2 (G2 - Bb2). Now, slide manipulation throughout the bass clef is equally as facile as it is an octave higher!

If we now want to fill the gap between the slide-alone 1st harmonic (pedal) and the attachment 2nd harmonic, with help from GOD, we could consider adding another valve, either dependently within the loop of the first valve or independently in series along the gooseneck. For the "first" (thumb-trigger operated) valve, we would (of course!) keep the optimal minor-third tuning, Bb/G--and this is then compatible with the Bb/G tenor. [And with the C/A tenor (a great "lead" instrument, paralleling the C trumpet often used in orchestras); and Eb/C alto (much more useful than Eb/Bb using the "traditional" P4 tuning).] The tuning of the second (finger-trigger operated) valve would then need to provide attachment harmonics that "split" the gap most evenly, while presenting slide positions that are not "too long"--especially for the low B1. I'll leave that as an exercise, but I think you'll find that Bb/G/D (G minor triad) is pretty good for the dependent tuning, and either Bb/G-E-D or Bb/G-Eb-Db are both very good for the independent tuning.

PS Of course with so-called independent valves, it is the activation that is "independent"; the relative tuning of the double combination is totally dependent on the tuning of each of the individual valves. So, once you've chosen the "first"-valve tuning (say, G), the "second"-valve tuning will also determine the "double"-valve tuning. That's why I tune the E attachment 20¢ sharp--to give a perfectly in-tune D double. The Eb attachment needs to be tuned only 6¢ sharp to give a perfectly in-tune Db double. You can see this clearly on the ETSP Charts.


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[Jimkinkella]

One my my dreams is a Hagmann (or double Hagmanns) on my 607F/3508Y small bore setup for… reasons. This looks awesome. Assuming you used a .530 rotor and tube?

You can check out some Glenn Ferris videos to see a double valve small bore in action!

[Sesquitone]

One my my dreams is a Hagmann (or double Hagmanns) on my 607F/3508Y small bore setup for… reasons. This looks awesome. Assuming you used a .530 rotor and tube?

René Hagmann has, in fact, built at least one inline dual-valve tenor that I know of (with his valves, of course)--a converted Bach 42B. I'm pretty sure it was tuned Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double). There's a video of that somewhere on his website by a wonderful player whose name escapes me at the moment. [Sorry for drifting away from the G (natural) theme--but, of course, any dual-valve tuning could be used on a continuously chromatic tenor.]

Alan Charlseworth and I used to refer to this as the Ultimate Recital Instrument--no problems belting out the low B-natural, blending into pedals.

My very first Bb/G-E-D inline prototype was also a tenor--a converted Conn 88H. [As a matter of necessity (I didn't have a bass to work with at that time).] The conversion was done by Jack Onqué, the lead technician at Bob Giardinelli's famous shop in New York in 1971. Jack also helped me with the detailed design of the geometry of the (at that time unique) independent-trigger (thumb and finger) linkages.


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[Matt K]

I’ve been meaning to check out Glenn’s stuff for years and keep forgetting until someone reminds me about him. Maybe I’ll actually do that now!

I also have owned a tenor with a dependent rotor, it occasionally comes up for sale. It really is a nice combo though I didn’t use it as much on a large bore frame as I would on bass. Reason I want a small bore is I find myself soloing and often want to break into that register but it’s hard to fluidly do so beyond a D give or take because of the positions being so far out for me. I’ll often want to play a C or B in particular, especially in common keys. I have zero problems hitting the C on my small bore, but reaching it with my arms is a different story!!!

[Windmill]

Glenn Ferris is actually the guy who gave me the idea of a G attachment. You clearly hear, in his recordings, the low notes being played smoothly with the valve détaché. He uses the G-att to phrase down there, and the F-att to complete the range where the G att gets faulty. I mean very low Db, C and E

[EZSlider]

Anywhere that I can read about Glenn farris's thoughts on the G valve? Also wondering if I could just pull my f valve slide to eat my base? What's the length difference from f to e?
EZ

[Sesquitone]

What's the length difference from f to e?
EZ

Assuming you are working with the standard inline tuning Bb/F(thumb)-G(finger)-"Eb"(double), where the "Eb" is too flat to be viable, it depends on whether you want (i) an in-tune E (natural) with the thumb-operated trigger available with the slide closed or (ii) in combination with the G (natural), an in-tune D with both valves activated available with the slide closed.

In the first instance, you would need enough length on the F tuning slide to be able to pull 117.5 mm (each side). If so, this would give a slightly flat (by about 20¢) "D" double-valve with the slide closed--which is not really viable.

For the perfectly in-tune D double in 1st position (i.e. slide closed), you need a slightly sharp "E", so you'd only need to pull the tuning slide 94 mm (each side).

In any case, experiment by pulling the F tuning slide to see what happens.

PS If you can make the Bb/E(thumb)-G(finger)-D(double) work and really like it--using the G-natural valve a lot--you might want to consider having your tech switch the trigger linkages to make the tuning feature the G-natural valve with the thumb trigger: Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double). In which case, I would advise having your tech insert sleeves to fill in the gaps caused by pulling the "F" tuning slides. This would then be compatible with a single-valve tenor tuned Bb/G(thumb).


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[EZSlider]

Roger that.. An in tune D would be what I am after. I have plenty of Es available to me, but a true first position d would be much more helpful. I will definitely some experiments and see if I can get the d. I mainly play and double in line valve bass and straight 508 Tenor right now. Wouldn't mind throwing a g valve on my tenor at some point. Would be great to read more though of Mr ferris's thoughts.
EZ

[MichaelMedrick]

I attached a photo

Ugh. How I hate those yellow pencils! Shame it's mounted on such a nice horn.

Well, bles your heart if that's all you could find to "Karen" about.

[AtomicClock]

Well, bles your heart if that's all you could find to "Karen" about.

Yes. I should start a thread on the glorious Pentel P205. Though for music, I think I prefer the 209.

[ScottZigler]

Sesquitone, I've always wondered what your thoughts are about Bollinger's Bb/F/flat G/flat Eb tuning. I have a Shires Bollinger and use my flat G a lot more than F; probably about 3:1.

I love it! I use my G valve on my bass way more than the F. Would love to do this on my 891z but would for sure need to widen the slide..
EZ

The G-natural (i.e. minor-third) tuning is indeed more useful than the conventional P4 tuning. And many bass trombonists who use the inline tuning Bb/F(thumb)-G(finger)-"Eb"(double) find that they use the "second" valve more often that the "first" in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register.

Denson Paul Pollard has a very useful video, "Explanation of G valve tuning with musical examples", where he demonstrates the great advantage of this tuning. And before anyone complains about turning the instrument into a "valve trombone", let me point out that the "valve" techniques are very different. On a valve trombone, you can get a "valve legato" in a chromatic run simply by using the valves along the same harmonic. On a slide trombone with attachments, the attachments simply add more available harmonics interspersed between the slide-alone harmonics. Legato phrasing makes use of lip-slurs between different (slide-alone or attachment) harmonics.

But why have the "first" (thumb-trigger-actuated) valve tuned to P4 (other than "convention")? If you start with a clean slate to design an inline dual-valve (bass or tenor) trombone, with slide-alone pitched in Bb, it makes much more sense to use the G-natural tuning on the "first" (thumb-trigger) valve, then another appropriate tuning for the "second" (finger-trigger) so as to give a desired double-trigger tuning. [The position of the valves themselves need not be "first" and "second" in terms of flow direction. In the picture below, the G valve (operated by the thumb trigger) is downstream of the E valve (operated by the finger trigger).]

This way, the inline combination is compatible with a single-valve tenor tuned Bb/G (and a single-valve tenor tuned C/A, and a single-valve alto tuned Eb/C)--each using the minor-third valve actuated by the thumb trigger.

My preference for the bass (or continuously chromatic tenor) is Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double); the E valve is tuned 20¢ sharp, giving a perfectly in-tune D double. Another good tuning is Bb/G-Eb-Db--the same relative tuning as contras tuned F/D-Bb-Ab.



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[Finetales]

Yes. I should start a thread on the glorious Pentel P205. Though for music, I think I prefer the 209.

If you start a pencil thread I can finally evangelize our lord and savior, the Palomino Blackwing, on Trombone Chat.

[EZSlider]

Not much tuning adjustment on that valve huh?
EZ

[Windmill]

I carefully cut the length, so no need to adjust. Reason for that was also not to leave any grease marks on my trousers or shirt... The way I hold the trombone puts this area in contact with my clothes..

[EZSlider]

I carefully cut the length, so no need to adjust. Reason for that was also not to leave any grease marks on my trousers or shirt... The way I hold the trombone puts this area in contact with my clothes..

Roger that.. I guess my g valve always lands in pretty much the same place anyway.
fun looking horn
EZ

[Sesquitone]

Sesquitone, I've always wondered what your thoughts are about Bollinger's Bb/F/flat G/flat Eb tuning. I have a Shires Bollinger and use my flat G a lot more than F; probably about 3:1.

Since this thread is about a single-valve tenor trombone tuned Bb/G(natural), drifting off onto inline dual-valves is a bit off topic. But, to the extent that there are a number of different tunings used with the "second" (i.e. finger-trigger operated) valve, it is, perhaps, relevant to look at other single-valve tunings such a G flat and G "half-flat" (like the Bollinger tuning). The inquiry is about the (dual-valve) Bollinger tuning, so I'll try to answer that. Some of that may carry over to single-valve tunings.

In the ETSP Charts below, black dots represent slide-alone (SA) equitempered tones, open circles refer to thumb-trigger-operated valves, "stars" are for finger-trigger-operated valves, and "cartwheels" (stars within circles) are for the double combination. Heavy curves sloping down to the right show all tones sitting on an individual (SA or attachment) harmonic. Vertical lines are for SA fundamental positions.

A good “diagnostic” on the ETSP Charts is to trace whole-tone shifts between adjacent (SA or attachment) harmonics (dashed lines in the charts below).  The general rule (for facile slide manipulation) is: the steeper (but less zig-zaggy) the better.  In other words, more closely approximating the (steep but smooth) slide-alone dashed-line patterns in the facile upper register.

You can judge for yourself which tuning combinations do better in this respect.  Some do better than others in different registers; but throughout the (potentially awkward) bass clef, you can see (at a glance) the advantages of the G-natural attachment!  In particular, the patterns within the bass clef for the Bb/G-Eb-Db tuning—where the Eb valve (stars) plays no part—closely mimic the slide-alone patterns an octave higher. This is also the tremendous advantage of the single-trigger Bb/G tenor!  [And Eb/C alto and C/A tenor. The latter is a great “lead” instrument, paralleling the bright C trumpet, often used in symphony orchestras.]

As pointed out by EZ, you can also see how, on the popular dual-valve tuning, Bb/F-Gb-D, the F (circles) and Gb (stars) harmonics are "too close together". [A dependent-valve combination, tuned Bb/F#/D, that fills the octave gap between first and second SA harmonics with a Bb-augmented triad, is "better" in this respect—and has the advantages of the Gb valve in the awkward region within the bass clef.]

The single "disadvantage" of the Bb/F-G-"Eb" tuning is that the low B1 is a "long way out" (although, "Still there", as emphasised by Denson Paul Pollard). The Bollinger tuning is a compromise between Bb/F-G-"Eb" and Bb/F-Gb-D, by "widening" the space between the two attachment's harmonics in the latter case, while reducing the stretch (a little) to the B1 (and its pedal) relative to its position with Bb/F-G-"Eb" tuning. In my "opinion", sacrificing the closed-slide G3, D3, and G2 is too big a price to pay compared with any other "advantages" over either Bb/F-G-"Eb" or Bb/F-Gb-D.

Rather than widening the gap between the F and Gb harmonics by raising the latter by half a semitone, my preferred tuning widens the gap between G (natural) and F of the Bb/F-G-"Eb" by lowering the F to (a slightly sharp) E (natural), giving a perfectly in-tune D1 with the slide closed (as with the Bb/F-Gb-D tuning)—and this brings the B1 back to where it is with that tuning (half-way between SA 5th and 6th positions). And, by switching the thumb and finger trigger linkages, the Bb/G-E-D tuning is now compatible with a single-trigger Bb/G combination—which brings us back to the topic at hand! Finally, Bb/G-Eb-Db is seen to be a viable tuning—the B1 is even closer (slightly beyond SA 4th position). This is a transposition (up a P4) of the popular contrabass tuning F/D-Bb-Ab.







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[Sesquitone]

Yes Mr Pollard is responsible for my decision to pursue the G valve. Made a whole lot of sense to me. Having two valves one slide position away from each other did not. I like the idea of the G/E combo too. .
EZ

Regarding the excerpt from The Creation demonstrated by Mr Pollard (making wide use of his "second"-valve tuned to G-natural), I attach here some attachment-position possibilities that lie very "comfortably" in this register. The (un-circled) black markings are for shortest slide-alone (SA) positions; those circled in green are outer-position SA alternates. The circled red markings are for the G-attachment alternates on a single-valve tenor trombone. This can keep things light but energetic (as recommended by Mr Pollard)—to blend with (but not overpower) the unison contrabassoon. Of course, there is no need for a lower-tuned "second" attachment for this piece—the Eb2 is well within the compass of the Bb/G instrument. And I have suggested approaching it here from SA 6th position for facile slide motion. In general, I have tried to use "contrary" (sometimes known as "against-the-grain") slide motion as far as possible. You will notice that except for one "leap" between SA 1st and 4th position (in measure 14), there is never anywhere that requires a shift of more than two nominal (SA or attachment) positions.



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