Trombone pet peeves

[tbdana]

Whether it's about instruments, playing, players, or pedagogy, let those peeves fly! What bugs you that you don't talk about? I'll start:

No, long tones aren't the answer to every problem!

No, you can't learn to play fast by playing slow. It's a whole different physical thingamajig (<-- technical music term way too advanced for the likes of you ).

It's not the [mouthpiece/lead pipe/crook/tuning slide/bore size], it's you.

If you can't make the rehearsal, get a sub! Leaving an empty chair is so disrespectful to your sectionmates.







Your turn.

[tbdana]

Why do symphony players play on large bore sizes that didn't even exist in the 17th through 19th centuries, and lecture us pedantically about being true to the composer's original intent?

[tbdana]

Let's all take a moment to be thankful that Mr. and Mrs. G didn't let their son, Kenny, play the trombone.

[LeTromboniste]

Why do symphony players play on large bore sizes that didn't even exist in the 17th through 19th centuries, and lecture us pedantically about being true to the composer's original intent?

Omg this, so much!! The mainstream classical world's obsession with "the intention of the composer" is most of the time superficially informed at best, and, given how vastly different today's instruments and canonically-accepted performance choices are from historical practice, usually completely irrelevant.

(not saying there's anything at all wrong with playing modern instruments on old music, or using modern interpretation idiom. Let's just leave the morally superior attitudes and pseudo-artistic-purity arguments out of it)

[harrisonreed]

I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.

[MStarke]

- Classical players who think they can play jazz, but sound like sh...
- The other way around.
- Overall people who always stay in their own limited musical bubble. Although I must admit there is certain music that I hate and don't ever want to play.
- Conductors. Or at least some of them. Those who have no clue of brass instruments.
- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them./Generally people who just "consume", but don't contribute.
- People who have very set ideas of music, instruments/equipment or technique, but obviously are missing a lot of perspectives.

[AtomicClock]

I hate that jerk in the section who uses a tablet. In a few years, I'm sure I will hate those jerks that still use paper.

[tbdana]

- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them.

Yeah, that drives me nuts.

I'm in a weird position. Before my 30-year layoff I played with musicians who didn't need rehearsals. They sat down and played everything virtually perfectly the first time through, and every time through. I can't count the number of gigs I did with zero rehearsal that were absolutely amazing, many of those TV broadcasts and various recording sessions.

Now that I'm back playing, I play with both pros and community players. And it drives me nuts when the community players (who are given the music ahead of time) come in and use the rehearsal as their own personal practice time. No! Practice at home. When you come to the rehearsal you should already be able to play your part perfectly because you put in the time at home. The rehearsal is for the conductor and the group as a whole to put things together, not your time to learn your part at our expense because you didn't bother to practice all week.

Drives me nucking futs.

(That said, I'm guilty. I never practice my part at home. But in my defense, I can still come in and play the sh*t out of it without practicing. If I ever reach the point where I can't, you bet your bippy I'll be woodshedding that stuff at home, and when I get there it'll sound great.)

[harrisonreed]

Dana didn't you say you were the one who would just noodle over the tuning pitch in the orchestra rather than help establish pitch? Don't practice at rehearsals! Just sit quietly and only play when your note comes up on the page

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[ghmerrill]

And it drives me nuts when the community players (who are given the music ahead of time) come in and use the rehearsal as their own personal practice time. No! Practice at home. When you come to the rehearsal you should already be able to play your part perfectly because you put in the time at home. The rehearsal is for the conductor and the group as a whole to put things together, not your time to learn your part at our expense because you didn't bother to practice all week.

Yeah, but a "community" group (community band, community orchestra, community chorus, ...) isn't a professional or even a serious amateur group. The members of it (at least the ones who aren't elderly and retired) have full time jobs during the day that don't involve music. They involve things like administration, factory work, IT at various levels, genuine science (I've played with very good community musicians who were protein scientists, biologists, chemists, etc.), medicine (I've played with a number of M.D.s, including cardiologist and oncologists), engineering (mechanical, electrical, chemical), airline pilots (I've played with a wonderful euphonium player who was an international pilot for American Airlines), etc. etc.

Sometimes these people work very long days. The last couple of years before I retired, my group was frequently working 10-12 hour days (8 in the office, 2-4 at home) on things I won't even try to describe here. And some of them are on call at various times during the week. Yeah, with a job like that (working at SAS, for example) and with three children, I still did find time to practice for the weekly community band rehearsal. True, not as much I "should" have, but I did my best. Some people couldn't manage quite as much practice. And later, I stopped playing for 15 years because I just couldn't do it with the jobs I had.

You just need to stay away from community organizations if you think that people with real full-time jobs can be expected to practice their parts to perfection before coming to rehearsal. I'll go for "should practice their parts before coming to rehearsal," but "to perfection" is definitely unreasonable. Sure, the level of unpreparedness is irritating (even to other members of that organization in the same boat as them). But that's the kind of organization it is, and every conductor of one is aware of that -- even if he/she yells them regularly to PRACTICE AT HOME.

[AndrewMeronek]

Adding aggressive vibrato when you're playing 2nd or 3rd bone and the lead bone (and/or the lead trumpet) is not doing that.

Well, in a performance, at least. At rehearsal, that's the time to try things out and get told how awful you sound.

[AndrewMeronek]

Excessive warming up in the performance area when other people are trying to set up.

[Doug Elliott]

People who stay on stage after a performance and continue to play.

[MStarke]

- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them.

Yeah, that drives me nuts.

As this point from my end created some discussion.

I am not thinking about amateur/community (?) orchestras and comparable settings. I am thinking about pro or semi-pro situations and/or situations where the majority of people comes well prepared (instrument ready, touched it regularly in the last weeks, music printed out if available beforehand etc.) and some individuals think they don't need to.

[mgladdish]

Exploding elephant licks when soloing. That lip trill against the slide has *never* sounded good, I don't know why pretty much every trombonist resorts to it. And no other instrumentalist does this for a good reason.

Classical singers' vibrato. I can't even tell what note they're singing most of the time!

I'll add another vote to classical players murdering jazz (and vice-versa). I've lost count of the number of times a classical recital ends with a butchered bit of gershwin as "a bit of fun" at the end. It's insulting. I don't end my gigs with a half-assed bach prelude with none of the phrasing or styling expected.

[sf105]

Players who can't get below an mf.

[claf]

Yeah, that drives me nuts.

As this point from my end created some discussion.

I am not thinking about amateur/community (?) orchestras and comparable settings. I am thinking about pro or semi-pro situations and/or situations where the majority of people comes well prepared (instrument ready, touched it regularly in the last weeks, music printed out if available beforehand etc.) and some individuals think they don't need to.

Reminds me of a jazz band I played a few years ago.
The band was created as part of a jazz diploma for the local conservatory to help the students prepare for their future work as jazz musicians.
The band was composed of amateurs, students and a few professionals, and the level was very good. We rehearsed once a month.
The only ones that never prepared the rehearsal at home were the students, and they often forgot their sheet music.
I was in pain for them, because they saw it as a "mandatory part" of their cursus, but they missed why it was there for: teach them how to behave in group context (be on-time, be prepared, have your sheet music, be nice with everyone).

[Pezza]

I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.

Why? If it takes more to be in tune then they should be out more! Not everyone is the same,

[harrisonreed]

I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.

Why? If it takes more to be in tune then they should be out more! Not everyone is the same,

That's what a pet peeve is -- people are posting actual grievances like section mates showing up unprepared in pro settings, but as far as I'm tracking, a pet peeve is something that has a slight nonsensical element to it or is petty, and the reaction is in excess of what the situation calls for. Like being very angry about someone chewing loudly. Or being mad about terms being used incorrectly. Or being upset when people don't use they're vocabulary correctly.

[bitbckt]

That's what a pet peeve is -- people are posting actual grievances like section mates showing up unprepared in pro settings, but as far as I'm tracking, a pet peeve is something that has a slight nonsensical element to it or is petty, and the reaction is in excess of what the situation calls for. Like being very angry about someone chewing loudly. Or being mad about terms being used incorrectly. Or being upset when people don't use they're vocabulary correctly.

Gah!

[harrisonreed]

[ghmerrill]

Meta pet peeves. Pet peeves about pet peeves. And then meta ... meta pet peeves. No moral high ground here anywhere.

[SteveM]

The worst part is when you realize you've done many of them yourself at one time or another.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, I guess one of my pet peeves is the imperfection of humanity. But now I just try to roll with it.

[harrisonreed]

This Pandora's Box has been opened!

[ghmerrill]

It was always open. This thread has nothing to do with trombones and is just an example of social media interaction. The whole idea of a "Tangents" forum is to create a Pandora's box. Every forum site has one, and everyone knows that. And it works. A good time is had by all.

[Mikebmiller]

Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.

[ghmerrill]

Concert band music in general.

I'm mostly with you on that, but I think it's more a feature of the particular band than it is of the overall repertoire of band music.

So much stuff now in "community" bands is Grade 3 or lower and often doesn't even have a 3rd trombone part. But I've played some interesting/challenging and fun parts (on bass at least) in bands that have a somewhat higher bar (and better conductor) in terms of the difficulty of the music. Again, there are "features" of a "community band" (or orchestra, or whatever) that vary depending on requirements (if any!) that the band chooses to impose on its members. But depending on where you live (and how far you want to drive), your options may be limited.

However, this is a major reason I decided recently to give up on community bands (which often have slid downhill around here, partly as the average age is creeping upwards into the New Horizons category), commit fully to bass trombone (finally ditching the tuba and euphonium), and hook up with a jazz band that would have me. (To repeat some other peeves here ... ) I got tired of sitting on a too-crowded stage among people who couldn't find the time to practice, and then often ending up with music so anemic that my mind constantly wandered while playing it. I've got enough problems with my aging mind, and devoting my time to such an organization is more annoying than beneficial.

[Finetales]

Jazz players who have a habit of playing notes higher than they can play with a real sound in their solos. If you have a real F, G, etc. like Carl/Frank/Bill/Urbie/etc. did, by all means have at it. But there are some modern players who play up there but don't really have it, and it sounds terrible every time.

Bass trombonists who have an independent horn but never use the 2nd valve alone.

The fact that trombonists tend to wait to do glisses until the last second. Like if the gliss is coming off a whole note, the default seems to be not starting the gliss until like the last 8th note. A full-value gliss should be the default!

People who claim the McCracken 5B is a bass trombone.

Non-trombone pet peeves:

People who pointlessly and incorrectly correct other people about instrument nomenclature. Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.

Trumpet players who use a C for everything, even when the part goes below the range of a C trumpet.

Tuba players who use a 6/4 CC BAT for everything.

Bydlo being played on an F tuba rather than a euphonium.

[ghmerrill]

Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.

Okay, okay ... But where do you stand on helicons?

[Finetales]

Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.

Okay, okay ... But where do you stand on helicons?

They're still tubas! Helicon/sousaphone/contras (Bb or G) are all just tubas in different wraps and regional bore/taper variations.

It's not that I don't think the distinction is necessary - they all have different names for a reason. But fundamentally, they're all tubas so it's incorrect to correct someone when they call them a tuba.

[ghmerrill]

I don't know ...

I think your description is oversimplified and ignores significant nuances in design. There's also a sub-population that regards ignoring the Sousaphone/helicon distinction as unAmerican and dismissive of one of J. P. Sousa's major contributions to the history and practice of music. Plus, if you've ever sat to the left side of a helicon player, you should be more inclined to support that distinction, as in "Will he be playing a Sousaphone or a Helicon? Because I have to decide where I want to sit." There are both serious political and practical issues in making these distinctions. Depending on what context you're in when maintaining your position about no distinctions, you might want to watch your back.

[tbdana]

Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.

They don't all suck. There are some good trombone parts in band music. Last year I was brought in to play 2nd trombone on Malagueña Extreme in a community band concert, because the band had only 3 trombones and this piece had 4 trombone parts. It's a trombone section feature that I think was written for the Navy Band, and it's pretty meaty. I enjoyed the other pieces they chose for that concert, too, so I agreed to be their bass trombone player this year. The conductor is a bass trombonist who makes it a point to find decent pieces for trombones to play. And he finds some gems.

[tbdana]

Okay, not to pick on community bands/orchestras, because, after all, I choose to play in them; no one is forcing me to. But there are some general problems I see that run across every community group I play with, and some are kind of peevy.

The one I want to mention here is TIME. You don't have to have great chops or be a technical virtuoso to play with good time. It's a much simpler skill than learning an instrument. Anyone can learn to play with good time. But somehow, ALL the community groups I've played with have had atrocious time.

A community big band I played with last night played Groovin' Hard, but it had slowed down so much that by the end I had renamed it Hardly Groovin'. Time is super fuzzy in every community group in the region, and I'm wondering if it's just here or if that's a trend elsewhere, too.

[ghmerrill]

The one I want to mention here is TIME. You don't have to have great chops or be a technical virtuoso to play with good time. It's a much simpler skill than learning an instrument. Anyone can learn to play with good time.

You would think -- unless you'd played in a few community organizations. I confess that I honestly can't recall the last time I played in any community organizations where the majority of the trumpet section could count to 4 with even intervals. This is not helped by the conductors who simply give up on it, but on the other hand you have to have some sympathy with them in light of the responses they get.

[BGuttman]

Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.

I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax.

[ghmerrill]

I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax.

Neither do the euphoniums.

[Finetales]

I don't know ...

I think your description is oversimplified and ignores significant nuances in design. There's also a sub-population that regards ignoring the Sousaphone/helicon distinction as unAmerican and dismissive of one of J. P. Sousa's major contributions to the history and practice of music. Plus, if you've ever sat to the left side of a helicon player, you should be more inclined to support that distinction, as in "Will he be playing a Sousaphone or a Helicon? Because I have to decide where I want to sit." There are both serious political and practical issues in making these distinctions. Depending on what context you're in when maintaining your position about no distinctions, you might want to watch your back.

But...they are both literally tubas. Tubas have a massive range in bore, taper, bell diameter, valve configuration, much more than trombones or trumpets. A 3/4 rotary F tuba (MW 182) is just as much a tuba as a 6/4 piston Bb, and those are farther apart than the average sousaphone and helicon. Obviously the wrap is different, which is why we have different names for them. But if you straighten them all out, they're all tubas.

I'm not advocating for discarding the different names and just calling them all tubas. But when people get all holier than thou on YouTube comments exclaiming "it's NOT a tuba ", they're just...wrong.

[Finetales]

I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax.

Couldn't agree more!

See also: alto sax doubling the horns.

[officermayo]

Hearing it called a "french" horn.

[AndrewMeronek]

The worst part is when you realize you've done many of them yourself at one time or another.

DAMMIT!!!

[Mikebmiller]

Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.

They don't all suck. There are some good trombone parts in band music. Last year I was brought in to play 2nd trombone on Malagueña Extreme in a community band concert, because the band had only 3 trombones and this piece had 4 trombone parts. It's a trombone section feature that I think was written for the Navy Band, and it's pretty meaty. I enjoyed the other pieces they chose for that concert, too, so I agreed to be their bass trombone player this year. The conductor is a bass trombonist who makes it a point to find decent pieces for trombones to play. And he finds some gems.

When you play in a community band that struggles to play anything above grade 4, most of the music is boring. I stay in the group because I am good friends with the director and there are a lot of nice people, but, musically, it is not very fulfilling.

[ghmerrill]

So how do y'all feel about those Jewish/Russian Hanukkah/Christmas songs (with a lot of stuff in 7, or in alternating 3 and 4) that are taken on by average community bands in their holiday performances? I can't say that's a pet peeve of mine, but I think I can count on the fingers of half a hand how many of those I've been in that -- should we say -- work out approximately well.

[tbdana]

So how do y'all feel about those Jewish/Russian Hanukkah/Christmas songs (with a lot of stuff in 7, or in alternating 3 and 4) that are taken on by average community bands in their holiday performances? I can't say that's a pet peeve of mine, but I think I can count on the fingers of half a hand how many of those I've been in that -- should we say -- work out approximately well.

I've never been exposed to that. But you reminded me of the community big band I played in last night. We played some Thad Jones tune that goes on for about 120 bars and then suddenly throws in alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4, and as soon as we hit that section it was like Thelma & Louise going off the cliff. It immediately came to a sudden and tragic end. LOL!

[ghmerrill]

It immediately came to a sudden and tragic end. LOL!

Often, unfortunately, it doesn't. It just goes over the cliff and keeps on going to the end, and everybody feels pretty good about getting there. Well, mostly everybody. "Train wreck" is a good description of it.

I think I was super lucky to have the music instructors I did in Jr. High and High school. We did stuff like that, we did it seriously, and it stuck. I've played in some community bands that, for a period, could do that. But they couldn't -- or chose not to -- maintain the membership that could continue to do it over time. So at best, it's episodic.

[mbarbier]

I think mine is people not reading the room on gigs, especially when subbing. Everyone using a practice mute before down beat, maybe do the same. No one on their phones during their rests? Maybe at least be discrete (which, to be fair, is an extreme rarity in LA- seems like the mark of a professional is how quickly you can have your horn on the stand and phone out during rests ). Totally harmless stuff, but feels like it gives off vibes of being unobservant which is a bit disconcerting.

Also the #todaysoffice posts. Don't know why, but I just expect to see a picture of a trombone in a cubicle.

I'm also with Harrison on the tuning slide thing. Zero logic why it bothers me, but yeah...

[AtomicClock]

It's bad enough when you're handed a part with the note names written in. But sometimes, those get uploaded to IMSLP. Ugh!

[brassmedic]

I think mine is people not reading the room on gigs, especially when subbing. Everyone using a practice mute before down beat, maybe do the same. No one on their phones during their tests? Maybe at least be discrete (which, to be fair, is an extreme rarity in LA- seems like the mark of a professional is how quickly you can have your horn on the stand and phone out during rests ). Totally harmless stuff, but feels like it gives off vibes of being unobservant which is a bit disconcerting.

Also the #todaysoffice posts. Don't know why, but I just expect to see a picture of a trombone in a cubicle.

I'm also with Harrison on the tuning slide thing. Zero logic why it bothers me, but yeah...

That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.

[MStarke]

Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.

I have one of these coming up (subbing with an amateur orchestra). Will be interesting to see how it works out.

I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.

[ghmerrill]

I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.

Or if you maybe just think of it as a work of art divorced from worldly constraints (or maybe are unaware of the worldly constraints), or maybe believe that the performer should somehow overcome those constraints in order to execute the art. Who knows what lurks in the hearts of some composers and arrangers?