Trombone pet peeves

[BrassSection]

Twenty buck tuners…Grandson tuned his bass guitar with the one at the bass guitar spot, just to “Try it once”. He usually tunes by ear, smart aleck kid has perfect pitch. First song at practice I was using my trombone. All my other horns have valves, never had an actual official trombone lesson in my life. Man did something sound BAD, thought I was having a senior moment with the slide positions, then I realized the bass guitar was flat, real flat! Drummer was second to notice…he’s a band director. Then grandson realized HE was the problem, retuned by ear and all was well with the world, including the new name of “Pancake” for my grandson! The leader noted the other bass player had trouble with that tuner.

Speaking of slide positions, band director loaned a trombone to somebody that played in high school that wanted to practice up and join our ensemble to play in. After practicing at home a few days, she reported the slide positions don’t seem to be right, could somebody check this horn? Band director checked out the horn, it was fine. Said volunteer backed out.

[ghmerrill]

The leader noted the other bass player had trouble with that tuner.

That might be the tuner, or it might be the tuner user.

All the tuners I've used allow you to set your tuner to tune to a given "standard" pitch. Various ensembles (especially depending on which continent you're on) may tune to different pitches. And of course in the past instruments were made to (by default) play to different pitches than they do today (where most usually A=440Hz). Pitch wasn't standardized to any degree until the early 20th century. When I got my almost 100 year old Buescher tuba, it was pitched (by the factory) at A=435 (and "low pitch" was engraved on the second valve cylinder). Instruments were commonly made and sold as "high pitch," "low pitch", and "dual pitch". And in addition each of "high pitch" and "low pitch" could mean one of several different pitches.

If you're either not aware of this, or you're not careful, or something odd happens while you're messing with the tuner, you can set your tuning pitch to be other than 440 -- and then when you tune with that tuner you'll be out of tune with everyone who tuned to 440. People tend to forget about this when they're using a tuner and may not be aware if it gets set to something odd. Or they may be careless in pushing buttons on the tuner and accidentally change their tuning pitch. Also, some tuners just don't work at all well in a bass or contra-bass range although they seem fine above that.

So MAYBE this is what happened that caused people to have "trouble with that tuner". Otherwise, I've found good tuners (TASCAM, Korg, etc.) to be rock solid. But I've had the guy who tunes my wife's piano (several times a year) express very skeptical views of tuner apps. So some care must be taken in using these devices.

[atopper333]

Just found a new one…AI generated descriptions in posts for trombones for sale. Especially the ones that say things like: ‘exceptionally well crafted’ on stencil horns, or ‘in excellent working condition’ when the entire bell section is in pieces…etc…

…but then again, they can be humorous to read…

[Richard3rd]

Scooping notes. Drives me nuts. It is almost as if players are not sure of where the notes are. I've had to stop tunes and ask the section if they can actually play notes without that. They don't even realize they all do it.

Even worse than that is when it is done and the target note is not quite reached, leaving the final tone flat.

[baileyman]

...I play in professional big bands and a community big band. In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes. It drags the whole band down in tempo. The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets, and then the trumpets lay back on the beat to slow it down further, in a death spiral loop. I swear, if the tunes went on long enough they'd all come to dead stops.
...

Come to Boston. You can have get the same experience in a full pro band. And you'll wonder where the section blend went, too.

[iranzi]

deleted

[Mamaposaune]

My pet peeve is with section mates that move around excessively during rehearsals and performances. It might be rocking back and forth, conducting motions, foot-tapping, etc. It's distracting.

[ghmerrill]

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

[harrisonreed]

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

I do this. I keep getting arrangements where they don't break rests into phrases or anything that makes sense. 19 bars of rest, etc. I don't care if I look stupid.

[tbdana]

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

Yeah, I do this too. I'm just too stupid and easily distracted to count 175 measures rest in my head. So I have a system of finger counting. It's subtle. No one can see it. And if my mind wanders and I lose count, I just see where my fingers are positioned and I know where I am up to 99 measures rest.

[ghmerrill]

I used to do this for long rests in concert band. Now my mind starts to wander at about measure 4. So I'm totally dependent on the 3rd trombone and his finger count if I don't know the phrasing yet. Otherwise, one of the trumpet players does this visibly enough that I can see it. But he's often wrong (they seem to have trouble counting to four, and sometimes to two, and definitely to 3).

[tbdana]

From a friend: "Counting rests? That's what the second trombone player is for."

[AtomicClock]

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

Sometimes I finger-count in binary. Does that help?

[BGuttman]

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

Sometimes I finger-count in binary. Does that help?

Octal is more fun

[AtomicClock]

Octal is more fun

Hmm. BCD is probably the most practical. I'll give it a try.

[AtomicClock]

I don't actually mind applause in between movements. But I'm really bothered when applause starts too soon. The final release needs time to ring through the hall.

[Posaunus]

I don't actually mind applause in between movements. But I'm really bothered when applause starts too soon. The final release needs time to ring through the hall.

I am annoyed by applause between movements.
And I really hate when some jerk in the audience starts yelling "Bravo" while the last notes are still being played.
(Is this a New York phenomenon?)

On the other hand, I attended a Chicago Symphony Orchestra performance of Mahler 5 in Boston Symphony Hall in ~1972 - - the ending of the symphony was so moving that the audience was literally stunned; it seemed like a minute of total silence (probably only ~30 seconds) before the hall erupted. I'll never forget that concert - the best musical experience of my life!

[brassmedic]

From a friend: "Counting rests? That's what the second trombone player is for."

You only have to give them the wrong count once and that will cure them from ever asking again.

[Mertelstein]

I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted

[tbdana]

I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime.

[Kbiggs]

I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime.

May I join you?

[tbdana]

May I join you?

And now we have a section!

[harrisonreed]

Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted

So wait ... You're ....

A) Mad that some sections in your group think that trombone players drink too much and are idiots in general, and you think that's not really the case.

B) Equally mad at the idiot trombone players in the same group who drink too much and don't want to hang out with you because you don't drink

I see....

[Kbiggs]

Recent community band experience that has revealed some pet peeves (chronic irritations?):

People who don’t own a mute, and who don’t ask to borrow a mute even when the director tells the entire band, “If it’s marked ‘Muted’ and you’re playing it without a mute, you’re playing the wrong instrument.”

Trombonists who don’t take care of their instruments.
1. Someone above mentioned playing without lube. One kid I saw recently doesn’t lube his slide, the slide isn’t parallel, he’s using muscle to force the slide into place… there’s probably a dent or two somewhere… oy.
2. Not oiling the valve, the bearings or the linkage. “My valves is stuck!” “When did you last oil it?” “Oil it?” <<face palm>>
3. People who don’t clean their instruments. When I’m sitting near you and it smells like dead fish, it’s past time to give the horn a bath.

College kids who don’t know the names of the notes or the fingerings/positions.

People who play too loud all the time. I’m primarily a bass trombonist, and if I can hear you over me and the rest of band when we’re playing fortissimo or pianissimo, then it’s too loud.

Musicians who don’t (can’t? won’t?) play staccato. Musicians who can’t hold notes full value.

Musicians who don’t respond to calls, emails, or texts.

Now get off my lawn!!

[Mertelstein]

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime.

Thank you! That's really lovely!

May I join you?

Very much so!

So wait ... You're ....

A) Mad that some sections in your group think that trombone players drink too much and are idiots in general, and you think that's not really the case.

B) Equally mad at the idiot trombone players in the same group who drink too much and don't want to hang out with you because you don't drink

I see....

This was a good challenge, but you'll note I referred to 'the brass section in general' - actually all the lower brass in this group are brilliant, and good people. It's an amateur group where the trombones have an amazing mix of day jobs which without going into details all involve helping others (it's also the only section I've played in recently which is gender-balanced); and the Tuba player has a very similar outlook to the one I put forward. The problem comes with our brethren and sistren who play the OTHER brass instruments who very much a) live up to the stereotype and b) encourage others to put pressure on us to live up to it...

[WilliamLang]

I really don't miss the "drink to network" vibe in my busier freelancing days. It takes on a life of its' own real quick.

[harrisonreed]

This was a good challenge, but you'll note I referred to 'the brass section in general' - actually all the lower brass in this group are brilliant, and good people. It's an amateur group where the trombones have an amazing mix of day jobs which without going into details all involve helping others (it's also the only section I've played in recently which is gender-balanced); and the Tuba player has a very similar outlook to the one I put forward. The problem comes with our brethren and sistren who play the OTHER brass instruments who very much a) live up to the stereotype and b) encourage others to put pressure on us to live up to it...

So, I see and call your semantics argument and raise you a very similar point:

If you do things or have a moral compass that set you apart from stereotypical idiots, and the same idiots playing whatever instrument don't want to hang out with you, why do you feel bad about being excluded from the group of idiots and still want to hang out with them?

I can't quite put my finger on it but some how it seems like you want to have your cake, and eat it, and also not have any calories or be seen eating the calories or seen as a calorie eater by the woodwind section.

That is a pet peeve of mine!

[Mertelstein]

I suspect I am not being articulate with the pet peeve here…the main one is that the stereotyping of brass players is unhelpful I find - particularly when one struggles with not being able to drink anymore.

Regarding the being excluded from the group I think that is where I didn’t explain the point so well. That doesn’t really bother me a huge amount - as an ATCO during the “day” and with kids I don’t really have a social life any more! It is more the basic human decency of having any kind of conversation (eg decisions about repertoire) where if you don’t go to the bar, you don’t get a say. That’s essentially where this whole rant stems from…

And FWIW I agree “cake-ism” is indeed a high crime and misdemeanour and it was certainly not my intention to pursue that

[tbdana]

I can't quite put my finger on it but some how it seems like you want to have your cake, and eat it, and also not have any calories or be seen eating the calories or seen as a calorie eater by the woodwind section.

Well, I gotta admit, that sounds good, to me. Especially the opinion of the woodsuckers.

[AtomicClock]

I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

We had one (just one) lesson in high school where we practiced standing, turning toward the audience, and smiling. I guess no one does that anymore.

[MrHCinDE]

Conductors who judge volume with their eyes (yes, I have been told to play quieter even when miming).

Tuning up using someone’s phone, ideally without proper warmup.

Foot tapping.

Conductors who insist on players transcribing bar numbers onto parts which only have letters. How hard can it be for the conductor to say “one bar before letter C“.

[brassmedic]

I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

We had one (just one) lesson in high school where we practiced standing, turning toward the audience, and smiling. I guess no one does that anymore.

Yeah, everyone does that, but trumpet players are even worse. After the last piece, I always see them putting their instrument in the case while the applause is still going.

[tbdana]

Yeah, everyone does that, but trumpet players are even worse. After the last piece, I always see them putting their instrument in the case while the applause is still going.

I'm a huge offender, in some situations. If I don't have a lot of stuff to pack up, I'm in my car before the applause dies down.

[Posaunus]

I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

I plead guilty. I'm trying to reform, since acknowledging applause is important.

[brassmedic]

I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

I plead guilty. I'm trying to reform, since acknowledging applause is important.

I'm not.

[Thom]

#1-"No! Practice at home." Is my pet peeve as well. Even if you have a day job, I bet most people make time for other hobbies, e.g. TV, Video Games, E-Books/Books on Tape, et cetera.
#2-Players of all instruments who chronically play 1-2 steps flat, sometimes sharp and tell you you are playing the wrong note or look at you with disgust on their faces

[JohnL]

Conductors who insist on players transcribing bar numbers onto parts which only have letters. How hard can it be for the conductor to say “one bar before letter C“.

I can understand that in a piece where rehearsal waypoints are few and far between. What frosts me is when a publisher numbers every measure in the score but not every measure on the parts, particularly when the rehearsal waypoints are letters or "rehearsal numbers" (rather than measure numbers).

[Dennis]

What frosts me is when a publisher numbers every measure in the score but not every measure on the parts, particularly when the rehearsal waypoints are letters or "rehearsal numbers" (rather than measure numbers).

THIS.

They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"

Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.

A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.

[JohnL]

They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"

Ah, but what about when the conductor continues to do that over and over again, even after repeatedly being told that the individual parts don't have numbers. I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.

I've never seen that, but I have had times when the conductor's score isn't the same edition as the individual parts. This happens with some frequency with PD works downloaded from IMSLP. The conductor will have a "personal" score that they've studied and annotated, but the parts on IMSLP are from a different edition. Beyond the rehearsal waypoints being different, sometimes there are significant differences in the music itself.

A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.

Ah, I tend to see this one from people who do a lot of choral conducting.

[tbdana]

I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it!

[JohnL]

I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it!

Yup. Until someone's comments find their way back to the conductor in question...

[tbdana]

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it!

Yup. Until someone's comments find their way back to the conductor in question...

I think as long as no names were mentioned...

[Dennis]

They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"

Ah, but what about when the conductor continues to do that over and over again, even after repeatedly being told that the individual parts don't have numbers. I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.

I've never seen that, but I have had times when the conductor's score isn't the same edition as the individual parts. This happens with some frequency with PD works downloaded from IMSLP. The conductor will have a "personal" score that they've studied and annotated, but the parts on IMSLP are from a different edition. Beyond the rehearsal waypoints being different, sometimes there are significant differences in the music itself.

A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.

Ah, I tend to see this one from people who do a lot of choral conducting.

1. Repeating the offense will move a conductor onto my "Folks I'd Rather Not Work With" list, or even the "Folks I Won't Work With" list. (With the "Rather Not" list, I'll play if it's something I really want to do. The other list is self-explanatory. It's pretty short, really.)

2. I hadn't thought about the different editions aspect of it. I saw it twice when I was music librarian for a group, and it probably was an edition thing. As librarian, I was asked to mark up the score so it would correspond to the parts, and as a back-up I numbered the score measures and we asked the players to number their parts. We ended up not playing the pieces because there was still conflict between the score and the parts. (One of them was Holst's wind band transcription of Jupiter from The Planets. The other piece was also Boosey & Hawkes, but I don't remember any more which it was.)

3. Yeah, choral conductors trying to conduct instrumentalists can be frustrating for all parties. Conductors who are string players can also be pretty bad about giving us a moment to get mutes in (and go back to check the key and time signatures for poorly copied/engraved pieces).

[BGuttman]

I've mentioned this one before. I got a part with a large blank area marked "tacet jusq'au" then a few bars marked with rests, maybe a rehearsal mark, and notes to play. How in **** are you supposed to count this to come in on time? I wound up going to the score, and marking a bunch of rests with rehearsal marks on my page so at least I could count properly and so if the conductor says something like "start at Letter J", at least I know where he is.

[officermayo]

Aged community band members who can no longer cut it, but insist on "playing" anyway. One or two things are caused by this: they play wrong notes and or play out of tune. Extra players have to be added to cover those parts. Nothing like a 6 man trombone section in a swing band.

I had a health issue that caused me to bow out for a couple of years so as not to bring down the band's performance. Now back for several years and my eyesight is diminishing. I currently scan and enlarge my parts and use special glasses and a light. It won't be much longer until I once again have to leave the group, but I will to not be "that guy" I so dispise.