New Yamaha 640 or Used Bach 36B?

[OrinocoWomble]

Hi brains-trust, my teenage daughter has been playing trombone for 5 years now, on a Yamaha YSL-354 tenor.

She's ready (overdue she says! ) for a trombone with an F attachment, and after much reading, we've narrowed it down to a choice of two horns..

Yamaha YSL-640
Bach 36B

She plays a few jazz / big band groups, and a few performance bands, usually 1st trombone.

We can get a good condition used Bach for about the same money as a new Yamaha.. We were being tempted by some of the "refurbished" Ebay horns from the USA, but after googling the name of the seller, have settled either on a new Yamaha locally, or an excellent condition vintage Bach from a reputable store like Dillons.

Is there a right answer here? We're seeking subjective opinions on which of the two is going to be better suited to jazz or performance play, and this community seems to be the best-frequented trombone one I can find online.

The usual answer is probably "get your ass to a music shop and try them", but here in Australia all the shops I've tried don't carry actual physical stock of higher than student grade trombones, and we don't have the kind of customer service North Americans are used to.

Lastly, on the new vs used - we're not averse to buying instruments which need a good service to be "right" (we have a mix of new and vintage sax's and clarinets in the house too), so this is really about the playing / sound / enjoyment of the instrument.

[Koz]

Hands down, the Bach 36B! Quality instrument, time tested and will hold value if taken care of.

Koz

[Rusty]

Both are great horns, I’d probably lean toward a new 640 for a bit more of a commercial sound and a bit more punch and cut for any bigband work. For me, a 36 can be at times a little to broad and mellow for that style of playing, but of course many have made it work.

Where abouts in Australia are you? If you can make a trip to Presto Music in Adelaide, you’ll find probably the biggest selection of Trombones to try in the country, new and used. They are the Shires and Eastman dealer but also carry stock of the pro Yamahas and Bachs.

Also keep an eye on the Australian Trombone Marketplace on Facebook, there are some good horns popping up on there.

[Elow]

I would say the bach, mainly because it will hold its value much more than a new instrument. When she decides what direction she wants to go then she can sell the bach and recoup most of that money and put it towards another horn. Of course the bach and yamaha are both fine to last a while, but preferences change.

[spencercarran]

36B, easy call. If she ever decides to move in a different direction you can always resell it for about what you paid.

I'd try something like a Wick 7CS mouthpiece to help keep the tone bright enough for jazz, though it bears mention that plenty of gigging professionals play jazz on a Yamaha 354.

[soseggnchips]

Another vote here for the 36B purely because a good used horn will hold its value much better.

Unless you absolutely have to, don't sell the 354. Between those two trombones she'll have something appropriate for nearly any situation where a tenor trombone is needed.

[GabrielRice]

I would also lean towards the 36B for the same resale reason suggested by others above.

If you have to buy without trying, I would definitely consult with the people at a quality store like Dillon's, and tell them what kind of playing she wants to do. Dillon's has excellent trombone players on the staff who can pick one out to match her goals as closely as possible.

With an emphasis on jazz as you say, a lightweight slide might very well be the way to go...but individual instruments vary, and the Dillon's folks - or those at well-staffed and well-stocked store like it - will be able to make a good recommendation.

I also agree with the recommendation to hold on to the 354.

[boneberg]

Both are very fine horns. The Bach brings with it a traditional (resale) value and the Yamaha (this one made in Japan) is a very fine deal for the money. I recently aquired one for a friend of mine and she is very pleased with it.

[boneberg]

And yes, keep the 354!

[MrHCinDE]

You’ve landed on two solid options, I’m sure either would work well.

If I were buying for myself as an adult, I’d probably go with the Bach due to the resale value and preference for the Bach sound.

If I were buying for a young trombonist, I might tend towards the brand new Yamaha for these reasons.

1. The slide on a used Bach 36 should be good to excellent from a reputable dealer but I’d personally always calculate in 200-300€ or whatever the equivalent is to get the slide on a used horn set up to its very best. I remember from another post on the forum that someone had issues getting slide work done in AUS and wasn’t exactly flooded with recommendations for an alternative tech so they might be hard to find locally. Perhaps someone with good connections in AUS could say more. To me a great slide is really a big help for an advancing student and all the Yamaha slides I’ve tried have been excellent. A great slide is probably more important than the name badge or company history, or arguably even the character of the Bach sound (controversial perhaps?). You could be lucky and get a really great slide out-of-the box in a used Bach but that’s quite optimistic IMHO.

2. There’s something about having a brand new shiny thing that the kid in me would see as extra motivation to practice more and enjoy playing. I realise this isn’t rational and may not apply to your daughter.

[OneTon]

I know how it is with kids. I may have one more new horn purchase in my lifetime. I own two Yamaha trombones that were purchased new and still look very good. I like the horns. The issue comes 15 years down the road. Yamaha moved on to the next iteration. A 0.500 slide or component may be available as a special order for an 897. But the 653 isn’t supported any more. The same issue exists for the 697.

Among other Bach trombones, I purchased a LT42G used, and a LT6 and LT42AG new. The LT42AG still looks almost new and has no issues. It hasn’t been played a great deal. The LT6 and LT42G have been rode hard though not necessarily put to bed wet. They show it. Getting parts for the LT6 might get interesting but it does not need any. It is over 20 years old. It is discontinued. Parts for the LT42G are available but it hasn’t required any. Bach lacquer is thin. It does not always wear well.

I have had good luck with Dillon’s. I am picky. I play their used stuff right out of the box with no issues. I prefer to purchase a used Bach horn with no functional issues but one that is is not pretty, from Dillons or someone like them. It is possible I will purchase a used 36B sometime in the future, probably in the $1200 to $1500 price range. Cosmetics does not affect my selection, in general, although if the horn looks like it may have been in a demolition derby I will want to try it.

If I did try a Yamaha 640 and simply preferred it, then I would buy it. I would know in 15 or 20 years that I might have to replace it with another horn. I am in the same situation in Wichita as you are in Australia. 640 trombones are not stocked. Nothing else is either. Since I now dwell on the wrong side of the actuary table, limited life of a horn might not be an issue.

[walldaja]

Unfortunately any new horn you get is usually worth about 50% of what you pay for it if you try to resell it. A good used Bach 36 would not have that fault and would be a sound financial decision.

[Mamaposaune]

Quinn the Eskimo has some amazing deals on new "open box" trombones, and is offering an additional 15% off for trombonechat members. I think members here have had positive things to say about transactions with him. (I bought one horn from him)
In addition, I live about an hour from Dillon (Woodbridge NJ) and give a thumbs-up to them.

[Estraven]

You've received some excellent advice from those above, I'll just add in a few more thoughts:

- I'd choose used over new, but that has nothing to do with Bach 36B vs Yamaha YSL-640. Used is almost always a better long-term value.

- Bach 36B vs Yamaha YSL-640: I'll stay away from that discussion, because I don't know enough about the Yamaha instrument (I'm sure that it's a fine instrument, I simply have no experience with it). i will say that I own a mid-60's Bach 36B that was rebuilt and converted to lightweight outer slide tubes, and it's my go-to horn over my King 2B and my Conn 88H. So, in the "battle of the bores" .525" wins out in my trombone life.

- Stay away from the older Bach 36Bs that have the trigger lever pivot attached to the slide receiver (like mine). You can't get parts for that trigger configuration any more. The newer 36Bs, where the trigger pivot is attached to the bell brace, can still be repaired or even replaced with complete ball-bearing linkage kits. This matters because trigger linkages are high-wear parts.

- You're getting a lot of input here from people that live in Sydney / Canberra-class metropolitan areas where support / repair is easy to come by. If you have access to good brass wind repair capabilities, then "used Bach 36B" is still the choice because you can accept the risk of receiving a horn that needs a little work. If you are in a location something more like Warnambool or (God forbid) Coober Pedy, avoid the risk and go for new Yamaha. (NOTE: I have learned that trombone "slide doctors" are in VERY short supply, the nearest one to me is a six hour one-way drive)

- Keep the 354. She'll need a horn to use in the "trombone battle zones" (e.g. pit bands and marching bands).

Now, at the risk of going off-topic, why not a King 608 or 3B+? Both of them are .525" bore with F attachment, and the 3B+ will have a lightweight slide too (I think....).

[BGuttman]

With respect to King 3B Plus: new ones are not available with F. The older 2125 model had a version with an F-attachment. But now you are back into the used market. Don't know the availability of used 2125F horns in OZ. Same goes for the "cousin" the Benge 175F.

Estraven's comment about where you are somewhat dictating the choice between new and used, I second that. Generally Yamaha trombones come with excellent slides "out of the box". A used trombone may need slide work. If there's a good tech in the area, no problem. If there isn't, you may have a BIG problem.

I have a Bach 36C (convertible version) and a Yamaha 682G (large bore version of the predecessor of the 640). Both work great for me. The 682, being large bore, takes more air; but I've known some rather small ladies with big lungs so that might not be a problem.

Good luck.

[Cotboneman]

Quinn the Eskimo has some amazing deals on new "open box" trombones, and is offering an additional 15% off for trombonechat members. I think members here have had positive things to say about transactions with him. (I bought one horn from him)
In addition, I live about an hour from Dillon (Woodbridge NJ) and give a thumbs-up to them.

I'd certainly vouch for Quinn The Eskimo. I'm a very satisfied customer.

[walldaja]

Quinn is amazing and a great source for horns!

[GabrielRice]

There's a very early Elkhart 36B for sale at BrassArk. http://brassark.com/sale/

This is one of the best periods of Bach production, with serial numbers in the 9000s and low 5 digits. I have a 50B with a 9xxx serial number that is one of the best Bachs I've ever played.

Noah Gladstone at BrassArk is also an honest and reputable seller.

[greenbean]

There's a very early Elkhart 36B for sale at BrassArk. http://brassark.com/sale/
...

I agree that Noah is a totally reliable seller. I would probably buy this ^ one and be done.

[OrinocoWomble]

Wow, such a big response. Thank you all!

I'll try and respond in one go.. apologies for the ones I'm not responding directly to, but it does seem there'a lot of Bach fans here.

I completely get the depreciation argument too, its one of the reasons we're open to buying a used but normally more-expensive instrument.

Where abouts in Australia are you? If you can make a trip to Presto Music in Adelaide, you’ll find probably the biggest selection of Trombones to try in the country, new and used. They are the Shires and Eastman dealer but also carry stock of the pro Yamahas and Bachs.

Also keep an eye on the Australian Trombone Marketplace on Facebook, there are some good horns popping up on there.

We're north of Sydney by about an hour - but even searching all of sydney, noone keeps stock of the nice horns (tried the bigger shops like Sax & Woodwind, DUral Music, etc. as well as the online via-google ones). I suspect its a cost-of-floor space thing.

Great tip on the facebook marketplace, thanks, have sent a join request!

Unless you absolutely have to, don't sell the 354. Between those two trombones she'll have something appropriate for nearly any situation where a tenor trombone is needed.

Yep - she likes the 354 so it stays. One day we'll reduce the instruments in the house, but most of them still get used, except for an old C100 yammaha plastic clarinet which will likely go to my neice in a few years.

You could be lucky and get a really great slide out-of-the box in a used Bach but that’s quite optimistic IMHO.

Agree on the slide - there's something to be said for "brand new never dropped/banged" and also yamaha Japan's engineering tolerances quality. The flip side is the number of posts here saying "get the Bach"..

- Stay away from the older Bach 36Bs that have the trigger lever pivot attached to the slide receiver (like mine). You can't get parts for that trigger configuration any more. The newer 36Bs, where the trigger pivot is attached to the bell brace, can still be repaired or even replaced with complete ball-bearing linkage kits. This matters because trigger linkages are high-wear parts.
<snip>
Now, at the risk of going off-topic, why not a King 608 or 3B+? Both of them are .525" bore with F attachment, and the 3B+ will have a lightweight slide too (I think....).

Great advice on the trigger - now I know what to look at in the pics. Thank you!

The King seems to have a number of people saying their sound isn't as enjoyable as the Bach?

Quinn the Eskimo has some amazing deals on new "open box" trombones, and is offering an additional 15% off for trombonechat members. I think members here have had positive things to say about transactions with him. (I bought one horn from him)
In addition, I live about an hour from Dillon (Woodbridge NJ) and give a thumbs-up to them.

Another good site to look at thanks!

[OrinocoWomble]

Oh, and just to muddy the waters.. some reading has turned up another Yamaha..

YSL-456A - "made for australian market". This is a James Morrison design apparently, made in Japan.

https://au.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs

It has a string valve linkage tho, unlike the Bach and more expensive Yamaha? Found mention of it here too: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12458

Thanks all - very helpful food for thought. She's going to quiz the trombone-playing conductor at the inter-school band she's playing at while I type this, to see if they have first-hand experience of both too.

[BGuttman]

Yamaha 456 is sold as a "step-up" instrument, although it punches well above its weight.

String linkage has been around for at least 150 years (I played US Civil War era instruments with them). Strings are quiet and easy to maintain. Only time I've seen a big problem with one was when a kid put her string linkage Yamaha 643 in front of a space heater and the string melted. I used to keep a roll of dental floss in my case for emergency repairs and needed it once. I restrung my Conn 79H with the dental floss and finally replaced it 3 years later (mostly from shame).

The 456 should be less expensive than the 640, but not by much.

[OrinocoWomble]

I restrung my Conn 79H with the dental floss and finally replaced it 3 years later (mostly from shame).

It's great when those quick repairs last.. and last.

Thanks.. the conductor's input is in, she did indeed have first-hand experience. She plays a Bach 36B for its versatility, and has played both the yamaha's above (640 and 456A) and says whilst the Bach is more mellow, it can be opened up a lot with a 42 bore mouthpiece. Her recommendation was the Bach given the range of music my daughter plays, coupled with the fact that we can always get the value back out of it - so mirrored a lot of the excellent advice above.

She also recommended a specific shop in Sydney which may have both in stock, and its only an hour's drive away in weekend traffic, so I'll give them a call, as at the least its worth going there just to buy a good mouthpiece to match the horn.

[Pezza]

The YSL456A is a good trombone, 1 of the best intermediate on the market.
Easier to blow than the Bach 36, with a lighter tone. They regularly pop up used for about Au$1500 in great condition. (Less for worse condition) They will do most community ensembles, I played 1st on 1 in an A grade band.

A Bach 36 is more versatile, with a 5G or bigger they'll hold their own against most large bores. A 6.5AL for general playing. And use a 7C or smaller and they'll do as a jazz horn. A use 1 will cost from about Au$2200 -$4000 depending on condition. I currently use a 36 with a 5Gish, playing 2nd to a professional player on a large bore!

I don't know where you are based, but Ozwinds have stores in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane & the Gold Coast. The Melbourne stores always tend to have a large selection of new & used trombones.

[Pezza]

I used to keep a roll of dental floss in my case for emergency repairs and needed it once. I restrung my Conn 79H with the dental floss and finally replaced it 3 years later (mostly from shame).

I once restrung a Conn 73H with the string from a teabag! Got thru the concert, but only just!

[Estraven]

The King seems to have a number of people saying their sound isn't as enjoyable as the Bach?

Oh man, what have you done? General quarters! Set condition Z!

But seriously…. In your searches, if you run across a King 608 or 3BF+ have your daughter try them also.

[elmsandr]

...
- Stay away from the older Bach 36Bs that have the trigger lever pivot attached to the slide receiver (like mine). You can't get parts for that trigger configuration any more. The newer 36Bs, where the trigger pivot is attached to the bell brace, can still be repaired or even replaced with complete ball-bearing linkage kits. This matters because trigger linkages are high-wear parts.
...

NO. This is REAL BAD advice in whether or not to get a particular 36B. You can replace the lever on an older one with then newer one if you want. You would seriously eliminate the generally accepted highest resale and best periods for Bach instruments over a part that can be replaced with something most techs will have sitting in a drawer. Seriously, I have probably a half dozen of the newer ones in my house somewhere and could swap out the the under thumb lever on my NY50B if I had to in probably less than 30 minutes. Would probably negatively affect the resale.... so I won't touch that with a 39.5' pole. Oddly, it seems just fine after about 70 years, so I'll give it a little longer to see if it becomes a problem.

For the student/parent in question, if you are buying from a reputable seller, this is maybe something to ask about, but do not discount a horn because of the "old" lever style. It probably makes the horn worth more money.

Cheers,
Andy

[greenbean]

I agree. The version of valve lever is a complete non-issue.

[GabrielRice]

For the student/parent in question, if you are buying from a reputable seller, this is maybe something to ask about, but do not discount a horn because of the "old" lever style. It probably makes the horn worth more money.

Exactly. To be clear, the old lever style was used in Mt. Vernon before the sale of Bach to Selmer. Those instruments are highly valued, and the resale for them keeps going up.

[tbonesullivan]

I would say used Bach 36B, as others have said. It will hold the value better for later upgrades, if desired. That said, IMHO the YSL-640 is a GREAT horn, but unless you are planning on keeping it forever, doesn't hold the value as well. I'm also not a fan of the case it comes in, as it allows the handslide to move around WAY too much unless you put in extra padding.

Not sure what happened with Yamaha cases, as the 1990s - 2000s 600 series cases were incredible. However they were kinda heavy and bulky, so they ditched them for lighter, smaller, and probably cheaper alternatives.

[PaulT]

I would get the new Yamaha. It's great horn. And you are buying it to keep and play, not to flip (unless you want to be a horn jockey, which is a game unto itself).

A new Yamaha will give your daughter years and years of trouble free performance. There is no way to know what issues are lurking waiting to be revealed in a used horn. If you have a good tech close by and you don't mind leaving a horn in the shop (as you have three or four other horns in the stable), then Ok, that will work, if you don't mind the putzing.

The Yamaha is at your local dealer. Support them. Why buy a used horn from overseas? Even if it's from a good dealer, it's a horn that could have issues issues present or soon to be revealed (red rot, worn valve/bearings, pitted slide, chrome loss), or there could be shipping issues... and the dealer is across the ocean. Fixing a simple issue could be a month or more and you absolutely do not want to endure a no-win shipping issue.

Why risk the possibility of a time consuming pain in the butt hassle of dealing across an ocean when there is a new, wonderful, trouble-free horn sitting pretty at your local dealer. Really, you want a local dealer? Then support them.

Lot's of great folks here, but a fair number of them are used to wheeling and dealing in used horns. Some people love being horn jockeys ("hey, no problem, don't like it, flip it. I made three dollars flipping horns last month. Never lost money, ever."). Is that something you care about? Resale value? Ebay? Shipping, Flipping? Wheeling, Dealing?

Get your daughter a beautiful, trouble-free horn from your local dealer.

[PaulT]

I have purchased three horns from Quinn. All three were exactly as he described, MINT! They were new horns by any reckoning I could make (including packaging and papers).

[Blenky]

I had a 36 and a 640 on loan for a week. I’m only a decent amateur, I found both to be great instruments but the 640 for me was (and is) something I can pick up any time and play with ease. It’s beautifully engineered, the valve and slide section are fantastic.

After much deliberation I decided that I couldn't justify the additional considerable cost if the Bach.

I use the 640 in orchestras and small brass groups and it punches well above its weight.

[OrinocoWomble]

Update time

Thanks all for the feedback - it took a few weeks, but we've managed to go try out a few different horns, and the trombone of choice is the Bach 36B with a lightweight slide.

The Bach 42 sounded great, but it just wasn't as jazz friendly - and the 36B paired with a larger mouthpiece (5G) sounded great too, and with her existing yamaha mouthpiece, or a 7C was very comfortable hitting upper Bb and over.

Having weighed up cost options - we ended up negotiating a deal locally. The risks/complexity of shipping internationally pretty much outweighed the benefits of getting one of the open-box Bach's from Quinn, and the only examples DIllons have currently are a bit ratty; the good one they had which was worth the price/headache of shipping sold before she had a chance to try a Bach 36 in person.

Ended up at $US3700 equivalent all up - so about $1k more than my budget - but that buys a lot of peace of mind and some goodwill from a local shop.

Thanks everyone for your input!

And yes, we're fully prepared to now see a lot of great condition used horns with lightweight slides at half the price.. that's how big purchases usually work, right?

[OneTon]

I am glad you were able to get it resolved.

If you search on “.525” and “88h” there is a long thread where they get into it about using small bore trombones in orchestras. In one of them, some one says that a well known professor said that the 36b was the closest Bach offering to an 88h. It is a bit counterintuitive but it could just be true.

Good luck.

PS: It was ttf_bonesmarsh on “Why not small bore for “legit” or classical style playing.” It was said by his Eastman trained professor.

[emsta]

I would like to ask where you ended up buying the Bach 36? I live in Sydney, Australia and also prefer to buy locally but it is hard to find shops with a wide range of instruments to try and buy, especially used instruments. Ta!

[Pezza]

Ozwinds tend to have some used 36s. I got mine from the Moorabbin store.
I picked up a Bach 12 online from Blow Winds in Brisbane.
Unfortunately I have no idea what's in Sydney.

[OrinocoWomble]

Sorry, I don't seem to get notifications of replies, so late back to the thread, but for future searchers, I'll add it anyway.

Sax and Woodwind in Glebe were the place which had the Bach's in stock to try, along with a bunch of other brands (Yamaha, Rath, and more) - they were helpful and knowledgeable.

One slight "might have done this better" feeling I have is open wrap versus closed, purely as it limits the case selection, and the Bach C1867A case weighs a ton. If my daughter was normal sized I'd regret this, but she's >6' tall and strong so its a non-issue.

Overall daughter is thrilled with the trombone and playing a lot, so overall a win!

[greenbean]

You know... I do have a Yamaha 684G for sale here: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 4G#p186313

This model preceded the 640. Identical specs. This one is in MINT condition. I have been playing it for the past week and it's great! Slide is perfect. Everything is prefect, really. I can get it to you in Australia for $1700.

Just sayin'...

[OrinocoWomble]

The King seems to have a number of people saying their sound isn't as enjoyable as the Bach?

Oh man, what have you done? General quarters! Set condition Z!

But seriously…. In your searches, if you run across a King 608 or 3BF+ have your daughter try them also.

the above is um.. very pertinent! Update time...

Teenage daughter is still playing a lot of jazz, big band, and some orchestra when its the only alternative . She's in a lot of bands, and the 36B is still going well. She's playing at least 5 days a week, often more and zero regrets for blowing the budget 2 years ago, its been worth every penny. The old yamaha barely gets used such is the versatility of the 36B (with a lightweight slide and good selection of mouthpieces).

She did say she tried a friends 1940's King 2B during the soundchecks and rehearsals for a large arena show last week and it was super easy up top and sounded great.. so I suspect a third bone is on the cards in the near future!

She's still in high school, and doing top music as part of her final HS subjects, so I'm researching the various iterations of King Liberty 2B etc. and will be talking to her as she narrows down what she's after, and driving to various places to try horns out.