most overrated horns

[Mr412]

In comments where someone doesn't like a particular horn or manufacturer, or era, I would be most interested in learning WHY, specifically. Otherwise, I regard it as an "I don't like broccoli" comment. which means, to each their own.

[hyperbolica]

In comments where someone doesn't like a particular horn or manufacturer, or era, I would be most interested in learning WHY, specifically. Otherwise, I regard it as an "I don't like broccoli" comment. which means, to each their own.

Reasons for why I don't like horns I've listed:

BAC = overpriced cake decorations and imported stuff
Thein, Monette, Williams, Minick and other unattainable horns are things I'll never be able to play. They are priced out of the players' market.
Yamaha and Shires = flat response without the personality and character I've come to expect from vintage horns
Big bass bones = just don't have enough wind to make them sound anything other than woofy

[Mr412]

In comments where someone doesn't like a particular horn or manufacturer, or era, I would be most interested in learning WHY, specifically. Otherwise, I regard it as an "I don't like broccoli" comment. which means, to each their own.

Reasons for why I don't like horns I've listed:

BAC = overpriced cake decorations and imported stuff
Thein, Monette, Williams, Minick and other unattainable horns are things I'll never be able to play. They are priced out of the players' market.
Yamaha and Shires = flat response without the personality and character I've come to expect from vintage horns
Big bass bones = just don't have enough wind to make them sound anything other than woofy

LOL. I get it the double-trigger basses. Too much weight for me to heft, for one additional real note and a little bit more dexterity going between low Bb and low C. Perhaps a die-hard double-trigger base-player could enlighten us both.

For my part, I have only ever found one horn that I thought was over-rated and that was a particular vintage King 4B. The partials didn't line up very well at all. I never tried a different one to be able to universally state that they are all bad, though.

In every other instance, with all the horns I have ever owned - it was always me. Wish I had them all back, now that I can play a little bit. I suspect my verdicts would be QUITE different.

[hyperbolica]

LOL. I get it the double-trigger basses. Too much weight for me to heft, for one additional real note and a little bit more dexterity going between low Bb and low C. Perhaps a die-hard double-trigger base-player could enlighten us both.

Well, I own and play a double valve bass, although I don't exactly love it, and when I got it, it wasn't overpriced for what it was. The ones I think are overrated are the thayer valves and the ones with the oversized 578 bore slides.

[Bach5G]

A friend showed up with a Yam single bass she said she bought in 1986. E pull. Nice sound.

All you need for orch.

[ghmerrill]

Perhaps a die-hard double-trigger base-player could enlighten us both.

For me, a big part of it has to do with the variety of alternate positions, and (following from that) the ability to avoid 6th and 7th positions almost entirely. For a class of people, because of their physical characteristics or medical issues, this makes for a playable instrument that otherwise wouldn't be an alternative for them. But in part (as I've mentioned in other threads), there are people who see a double-valve bass as a needlessly complicated mutation of a "pure trombone," and there are people who see a double-valve bass as a different instrument (and to be approached differently in terms of technique). But I don't take a moral stance on any of that.

[bassclef]

Interesting to see the YEP-321 being mentioned again in here. The YEP-321 to me is a really great instrument and served me well in many contexts, varying from bigband to pit shows to wind orchestra. Likely wouldn't play orchestral stuff on it, but for everything else it is perfect. Mine intonates really well, sounds very full despite the small shank it takes and plays easily. Also got many positive comments about my euphonium sound and playing on that particular instrument. But everyone feels different of course.

I agree with all of that. Granted, it is my first and only euphonium so I don't have anything to compare to, but I think it's great and can't see the need for a future upgrade for the doubling purposes you mention.

I did have a gold brass 641 leadpipe installed recently. I only did this in order to have more mouthpiece options vs. what was available in small shank. Even with the original leadpipe setup, I had no complaints about how it played or the sounds I could make with it.

[Digidog]

Perhaps a die-hard double-trigger base-player could enlighten us both.

Besides the, to me, better dexterity options in the lower register, there are also some benefits in the immediate register above. With the second valve, you may by playing delicately do otherwise impossible glissandos from f.ex. Gb to Eb (in staff).

....and for the record: I'm not a diehard base player, I'm a bass player!

In every other instance, with all the horns I have ever owned - it was always me. Wish I had them all back, now that I can play a little bit. I suspect my verdicts would be QUITE different.

Over the years, I have encountered a lot of totally worthless horns that have been utterly void of worth for whatever price they may command, but in those cases that was from poor construction, damage and/or poor craftsmanship in production. To me that's one category, and the principal and important one, of overrated horns.

To me, the other category is what you describe above: Those horns that may be of good quality and construction, but doesn't suit me and my playing, for one or the other reason. Sometimes I can discern why a horn is not to my liking, sometimes I don't and my instincts just tell me to not keep playing it, but I would not judge those instruments as overrated per objective definition. They are overrated in a subjective way, and may be just exactly worth their cost to someone else. I could never say that, f.ex., Thein or Lätzsch are overrated, since they are built with the intention of quality and usefulness over long time and are meant to give the buyer an instrument for professional and wearing use.

The price of something is always subjective, and if an instrument is to be used for someone's income from professional use, I cannot, and will not, set a limit of reason to whatever a person is capable of and willing to pay to get the best suitable instrument for her or him.

My line of reasoning, is that I will always provide myself with the best suiting instrument for me for my budget at hand. If I then have to pay much for a custom order, or find a perfect horn for less, isn't a consideration I do; what I find that at the moment suits me best is what I buy.

You would never tell an athlete to be content with second best gear, if the sponsor budget allows better equipment that from suitability provides an edge and ease to performance and results.

[Burgerbob]

In order to be overrated, a trombone first has to be rated highly. I'd argue a King 4B can't really be overrated because they are held in such middling regard to begin with. They aren't bad; but there aren't legions of adoring fans either.

My overrated instrument would be TIS Greenhoe basses. Yuck. Weird to play, and lose all center above a certain dynamic.

[MStarke]

My overrated instrument would be TIS Greenhoe basses. Yuck. Weird to play, and lose all center above a certain dynamic.

And that comment shows so well how extremely subjective this is. While I do see what you mean - my Greenhoe TIS does need a little bit extra attention in a specific tonal range - I totally love this trombone because FOR ME it does so many things so damn well.

I personally don't even consider playing any Bach trombone, because I know they don't fit my preferences, but that's just me.

Maybe what I would generally call overrated are any top of the line euphoniums. They are just sooo damn expensive and again for me I can't believe they make so much of a difference.

[ghmerrill]

Maybe what I would generally call overrated are any top of the line euphoniums. They are just sooo damn expensive and again for me I can't believe they make so much of a difference.

I tend to agree (but partly out of ignorance). However, it's not really fair to compare a euphonium in price to a trombone. A trombone is just a tube you can make longer or shorter. Not much to it. The euphs you're talking about have all those valves, conical tubing, and compensating circuits. By it's nature, that makes it a bit more costly. And once you slather on the silver plate and gold bling, it's more like an investment in precious metals.

However, I don't feel particularly disadvantaged with my (at the time of purchase) $750 Mack Brass Yamaha 640 clone, sitting next to people who are playing instruments that cost 10 times as much.

[dukesboneman]

"Maybe what I would generally call overrated are any top of the line euphoniums. They are just sooo damn expensive and again for me I can't believe they make so much of a difference."
MStarke , I agree they are very expensive BUT..... I play a very good Yamaha 321, LOVE It. recently I have played a top of the line Cervany and Miraphone Euphoniums and YES it makes a difference. Am I going to save up and buy one , NO I`m a doubler and my Yamaha does just fine. Would I love to have either of those horns, Hell Yeah!!!
I think the BAC Horns are way over rated. Every one I`ve ever played sounded brittle, no low overtones and didn`t feel good in my hands.

[modelerdc]

large bore and basses from King and Benge. small bore kings are legendary, but the large bores Kings and Benges just lack the sound. The Duo Gravis has it's admirers but is too locked into a special niche. The Benge basses sound like the ideal horn for playing 5th trombone in a college lab band, but again too locked into big down low but perhaps too dull for a lot of music. Not the best choice for playing the creation on. It's a great horn for a tenor player doubling bass but not the best choice for a bass trombone player. Many of the most common Yamaha with F attachment that most students have lack the sound. Well made, do many things right just sound so vanilla. Even then Yamaha does make some excellent horns, the 613H and some of the other top end Yamahas are excellent. the 354 is a great student horn, plays as well as many top of the line horns. But the most common ones, nah.

[Bach5G]

large bore and basses from King …

Any opinion on Holton 181 basses?

[modelerdc]

My take on Holton 181 is that the double trigger section is less restrictive than the Tr180. That's a plus. I have a Tr185 that's an excellent horn, but only a single trigger. I'll never modify the single trigger valve section, it plays well as is, though if I had an add on valve I'd try that. But these old single trigger horns worked very well as is. The Tr180 isn't open on the valves compared to modern instruments, nonetheless it's easier than pulling the E slide for low C and B. The 181 blows more open for me on the double valves. But by the time Holton started making 181s, their quality was getting worse. Clanky valves, F trigger that's an ergonomic nightmare and bends easily. Inconsistent lead pipes, and some just don't sound as good as others. Holtons have long been popular with the school horn market and all of these problems are made worse by abuse and lack of maintenance. A good 181 can play very well, but I'd consider a lead pipe change, there are several that work well, the most economical is the stock Bach 50, a Shires 2 is good, and there are Holton repro pipes available. Replacing the F trigger would be nice. The heavy combination slide on the second valve can be replaced with just a G slide or extend the G slide to G flat and ditch the combo slide. If you have a 181 with a good sound it's worth a few mods to suite. Holton also made a brass slide which darkens the sound a bit, but the standard nickel slide is fine for jazz band. Some advocate reducing the bracing on the 181, never tried that or played one that had that done. But I've had a couple of 181s and never felt that was a pressing need either.
As these horns really play their best with a single trigger, I think the ultimate Holton would be the best bell you can find, and to have an entire new double valve section fitted to it. I played a Butler recently, and sound considerations aside, I liked the feel and response in the valves. My next project is to have a similar valve section made for one of my vintage Holtons.

[MStarke]

Some of the comments above name double valve bass trombones as overrated.

My perspective:
As soon as you are (very) proficient with it, you will see how much easier many things are with two valves.
It's not only the low B. Low C is very much on the edge on most single valve basses. Moving from low C with one valve and low 7th position to contra B is much more troublesome and less smooth than with two valves. Low Db and D often make a lot of sense with two valves. So many movements are much easier with having the option of a second valve.

What many have said before: When you "only" have one bass trombone and have to play challenging parts, two valves are the way to go. If the most challenging part is Brahms 1st symphony, single valve will be enough.

[Mertelstein]

Some of the comments above name double valve bass trombones as overrated.

My perspective:
As soon as you are (very) proficient with it, you will see how much easier many things are with two valves.
It's not only the low B. Low C is very much on the edge on most single valve basses. Moving from low C with one valve and low 7th position to contra B is much more troublesome and less smooth than with two valves. Low Db and D often make a lot of sense with two valves. So many movements are much easier with having the option of a second valve.

What many have said before: When you "only" have one bass trombone and have to play challenging parts, two valves are the way to go. If the most challenging part is Brahms 1st symphony, single valve will be enough.

I agree with this on the need for two valves if you “only” have one bass trombone.

That said it needs to be the right one. I have two - a Duo Gravis and a 73H. Neither of which is perhaps the most versatile but, in contrast to what I see as the prevailing opinion on these boards, I’d choose the DG over the 73H as the only one to keep. For me, the freer-flowing valves of the DG more than compensate for the effort required to take some of the “edge” off when playing in amateur symphony orchestras.

Sometimes I wonder about selling both and getting a new one - but frankly the “bigger is better” approach turns me off; and I think I’m probably being more influenced by perceived opinion on what “is” and “isn’t” an orchestral bass trombone, rather than what I feel is enjoyable to play. After all it’s not like I’m holding down a seat in a major US orchestra, or indeed ever aspiring to do so (wrong continent and missed the boat)!

[musicofnote]

content deleted by author

[harrisonreed]

I think the "no valve on tenor" or "one valve on bass" thing, especially in classical music, is popular for people who can afford those horns, and might be subconsciously or even overtly a kind of macho thing.

Sure, in HIP groups, that's a different story. But valveless .547 horns for Bolero, single valve .562 basses for Brahms -- any perceived benefit you're getting from a "minimalist" horn in those bore sizes is not going to translate to an audience's ear. There's too much wiggle room on big horns for it to make a difference.

I would argue, being a pretty bad bass player mind you, that the move to indie double valves is overrated. Bass players will most likely be using both valves for C, B, maybe even Db, and they'll be doing that all the time. But for the kind of stuff I've been doing covering tuba parts and playing wind orchestra stuff, I've never had anything that would only have been possible on indies, and they have never made it easier to bridge down from C or B into the pedal range in quick runs, which is what the main challenge for me is.

[musicofnote]

content deleted by author

[Mr412]

If you're playing in a high-level group and the music is what it is and a double-trigger horn would make it easier (or even possible) to play well and the musical director is a stickler for "correctness"...

But if you're not playing in a high-level group (or any at all for that matter) OR you are the owner/leader of the group, then you can adjust the music to suit your skill on a single-trigger bass if you want. In the music I play, there are many alternatives to a low B that sound reasonable. That includes a re-write, key or octave change to avoid the situation altogether.

I haven't mastered the extreme highest-level technique on a single-trigger yet. No George Roberts here. I still get thumb-dumb in places. So I believe that a double-trigger horn is over-rated for my use b/c it would just add another level of "I can't do" on top of the first level and I have eliminated the need in the first place as stated above. Then there's the weight of the thing. Oh, yeah - that. Lol

OBTW, I have read comments in this chat group on other threads where some believe a single-trigger horn sounds better (whatever "better" is) than a double-trigger horn. I have to think that opinion is iffy at best. So I don't know how much credit to give to it in determining if a given double-trigger horn is over-rated for a lot of us or not. Way too many variables in that one for my little brain to process.

[ssking2b]

I played a Holton double rotor horn with dependent rotors for 35 years and never ran into anything I couldn’t make work on that horn (TR180). When I was endorsed by King, they gave me a Benge 290. It was a great horn and my first experience with independent rotors, but there were some things about it I wasn’t happy with and would’ve had to have modified. Instead, I sold it and went back to my dependent rotor horn. Instead, I sold to a friend who liked it as it was, and I went back to my dependent model.

XO gave me the endorsement in 2016 and I decided to go the independent rotor route again (every time I’ve tried Thayer type valves I have hated them because of the exceptionally long throw of the valve). I love the XO horn I play now on bass (1240RL with sterling silver 1 piece lead pipe). I have gone out of my way to developer the alternate positions using only the 2nd valve, and have become facile with it. It does make something easier, and I work daily with only the F valve to keep low D, Db, and C usable on the F trigger alone. If you totally quit using them you will find yourself playing them out of tune if you do do use them, and losing some more possible alternate positions.

As far as over rated horns, I find the Shires MD horns and the MG horns very over rated. To me, The price does not justify the horn. They are good horns, but not superior to my 1952 King 2B, my 1967 customized for Kai Winding silver sonic 2B, or my XO 1632 RG-LT.

[Macbone1]

3Bs have never done the trick for me, some people will call me crazy, ive liked every other king except the 3B

I agree, I've had 2 from different eras, like new. They both fought back slightly, above ledger lines F and were tiring to play in general. Great tone, but
more work for it than many other horns.
Also overrated are Bach 42Bs from the seventies and eighties. Very inconsistent. I've had solder joint failures, stuck valves etc. And just a lot of work to play in general.

[harrisonreed]

3Bs have never done the trick for me, some people will call me crazy, ive liked every other king except the 3B

I agree, I've had 2 from different eras, like new.

This was probably the issue

You need to get the old beat up but functioning ones that the owners had to begrudgingly put up for sale for whatever reason. They didn't want to sell them but had to.

[spencercarran]

Maybe what I would generally call overrated are any top of the line euphoniums. They are just sooo damn expensive and again for me I can't believe they make so much of a difference.

I tend to agree (but partly out of ignorance). However, it's not really fair to compare a euphonium in price to a trombone. A trombone is just a tube you can make longer or shorter. Not much to it. The euphs you're talking about have all those valves, conical tubing, and compensating circuits. By it's nature, that makes it a bit more costly. And once you slather on the silver plate and gold bling, it's more like an investment in precious metals.

However, I don't feel particularly disadvantaged with my (at the time of purchase) $750 Mack Brass Yamaha 640 clone, sitting next to people who are playing instruments that cost 10 times as much.

There is absolutely a difference between fancy euphs and cheap euphs, and it's noticeable even to a casual doubler like me.

Whether that difference is worth the money, given how few opportunities you're likely to find for paid work on euphonium, is a very different question.

[JohnL]

If you're playing an indy and only use the second valve for B2-Db2, then it's most certainly overrated - for you. It's in the range around B3-Db3 (depending on the tuning used) that the technical benefits can be seen.

[ghmerrill]

It's in the range around B3-Db3 (depending on the tuning used) that the technical benefits can be seen.

[Macbone1]

This was probably the issue
You need to get the old beat up but functioning ones that the owners had to begrudgingly put up for sale for whatever reason. They didn't want to sell them but had to.

Good advice but l'm too old and too fussy to put up with grunge horns anymore, especially onstage.
And 2Bs are always a delight compared to 3Bs IMHO

[harrisonreed]

If you're playing an indy and only use the second valve for B2-Db2, then it's most certainly overrated - for you. It's in the range around B3-Db3 (depending on the tuning used) that the technical benefits can be seen.

For 3 notes?? That's just a whole step right?

[ghmerrill]

For 3 notes?? That's just a whole step right?

Yeah, but it turns out -- this is surprising -- that you can end up playing them a lot, and in different combinations with lots of other notes. So they're a lot handier than just hanging an extra valve on a horn for the one B-natural below the staff -- which hardly seems cost-effective. Also, the extra valve helps to balance the horn against that big bell. Several wins there.

[harrisonreed]

I'm not arguing against two valves by any means.

[ghmerrill]

Can I hear three? Going once, ...

[MStarke]

There is absolutely a difference between fancy euphs and cheap euphs, and it's noticeable even to a casual doubler like me.

Whether that difference is worth the money, given how few opportunities you're likely to find for paid work on euphonium, is a very different question.

Yes, I totally see that point. However for euphoniums I just find the price difference between very very playable instruments that in reality cover all needs if you are not Steven Mead and the top instruments even more extreme than typically for trombones.
I know many very good euphonium players or professional trombonists doubling on euph who do not spend the money for a Besson Prestige. Actually I don't think I know anyone personally who privately owns a Besson Prestige

But no doubt, there is probably a reason for the price. And I am not a top euphonium player, so in the end my opinion doesn't count too much.

[Goldsmyth547]

Probably the 3-B is not that great but I still like playing mine and being jazzy when momma’s gotta shine, baby.

[ghmerrill]

Actually I don't think I know anyone personally who privately owns a Besson Prestige

Well, Besson is in some ways beginning to be regarded as "old world" and is fighting stiff competition with some newer (and less expensive) brands/models. And a lot has happened in and to that company over time. So it's not exactly the paradigm it used to be. And remember that they had a lock on things for a long time because they had the PATENT on the compensating system. But ...

I currently sit (in section) next to an amateur player (like I am) who has a Yamaha 842 (silver+gold). Current list price on those (new) is ~ $10K. I have my Mack Brass Jin Bao Yamaha 642 (brass) clone (cost to me new 10 years ago =$750 + $50 shipping). I'm highly confident that if we swapped horns, neither one of us would be able to detect much, if any, difference.

Is my Chinese prior model knock-off the same quality as the high-end genuine Yamaha? Not on your life (though the new ones have gotten a LOT better). It has some materials issues (rather soft brass) and fabrication issues (pretty lousy valve cap threads). But functionally and in terms of the sound it puts out? No real issues at all. And the parts actually interchange with genuine Yamaha parts or replacements! Same thing for my primary tuba (a Chinese knock-off of a Besson 981 that apparently plays better in tune than many 981s) for which I paid $2,400 instead of $10-$12K. It's a delight to play.

So yeah, there are genuine differences between "fancy euphs" and "cheap euphs" (even when you take the bling out of the equation), but in terms of playability and capability, often less than one might expect -- and generally not close to being commensurate with the price differentials. Relative to trombones, some of that price is "baked in" because of the relative complexity of designing/making a piston 4-valved (not to mention, compensating) conical bore instrument compared to a (possibly 1 or 2-rotary valved) cylindrical bore instrument.

Personally, I don't want to walk around with (or haul in my car or truck) a $10K instrument if a $1,000-$5,000 instrument will meet the needs. But I'm sure some would disagree with that approach, and possibly for some genuinely good reasons.

[Trav1s]

Someone on my "most underrated horns" thread said that the same brand would be mentioned over and over again if I made this thread. This is the ying to my yang.

What horns cost more than a used sedan, but aren't even worth as much as the cases they come in?

And the hypothesis was correct.

yup!

[jhousdan]

Myself and a classmate in high school both started on Holton 181s when we switched to bass and had very different experiences. Mine was a new-build horn in the mid 1990s and it played fantastic. His was a used horn from the late 1980s and the horn felt damn near impossible to center. When I went off to college, he tried to sell me his horn (he didn't stick with music in college), and I told him he'd have to pay me to take it.

Conversely, I sold my own 181 a while after I switched to my Yamaha, and while I definitely don't regret the switch, I DO regret selling that 181. It was still a great horn.

[MrHCinDE]

MStarke , I agree they are very expensive BUT..... I play a very good Yamaha 321, LOVE It. recently I have played a top of the line Cervany and Miraphone Euphoniums and YES it makes a difference. Am I going to save up and buy one , NO I`m a doubler and my Yamaha does just fine. Would I love to have either of those horns, Hell Yeah!!!

I don‘t really need one as I‘m not playing much euphonium these days and have a perfectly adequate B&H Imperial but having shopped around a bit and tried quite a few premium euphoniums (Besson, Courtois, Adam) I decided if I would buy new it would be Cerveny Emperor. The one I tried was every bit as good as a Prestige but about half the price. I think circa. €5k is not unreasonable for something as complex as a 4V compensating euph with slide trigger. The gold brass bell was very nice.

In terms of trombones and knowing this is totally subjective, I think 3B Silversonics are often overrated. More expensive and harder to play than a good regular 3B for me with very little additional reward. On the other hand I really like a 2B Silversonic/Silvertone.

[harrisonreed]

I will fight anyone about the playability of the Silversonic 3B!

I agree that the brass ones seem to have more "immediate" sound and less effort for the output. But! The Silversonic , at least for my money, can be pushed both louder and also played more quietly than the brass ones, and respond better to mouthpieces that let you really throw air into the horn.

Coming off a symphonic tenor, it's a friendlier instrument. But the brass ones got that zing, tho.

[Posaunus]

I will fight anyone about the playability of the Silversonic 3B!

I agree that the brass ones seem to have more "immediate" sound and less effort for the output. But! The Silversonic, at least for my money, can be pushed both louder and also played more quietly than the brass ones, and respond better to mouthpieces that let you really throw air into the horn.

Coming off a symphonic tenor, it's a friendlier instrument. But the brass ones got that zing, tho.

I'm with Harrison. I no longer play it (had it "on loan"), but for several years I enjoyed the sound and flexibility of a 3B Silversonic. It was a joy to make music with (and looks stunning!).

[MrHCinDE]

In the right hands for those that really need the extra few % of volume I get why the 3B SS is attractive. Funnily enough the positive aspects mentioned by harrisonreed and Posaunus are exactly what I like about the 2B Silvertone. Whilst I agree about a potential benefit for some applications playing louder, my own experience of playing at low volumes was the opposite, I found that much trickier on the silver than brass.

Another possible reason I didn’t love the 3B SS (mine was late 70s) was that the leadpipe felt quite tight and I felt I just couldn’t push the air into I that got the best out of the silver bell. Was fine for the brass but I think the silver sounds best with generous amount of air.

[ithinknot]

I'd say they were "easier", while happening to require "more effort"... control vs calories...

And I'm with Harrison on the quiet. You can play cleanly down to absolutely nothing in a way that would have turned into sloppy fuzz on most other horns.

On the other hand... your hand hurts, and they're tight and a bit uneven. But if you rate that sound, there's the horn.

[BoomtownRath]

Bach Corporation era- all hype

I used to agree until I purchased a corp 42B with red rot in the outer slide and a valve that leaked but it has the sweetest top G I've ever played. I was intending to have it overhauled to use but sticking to bass and too much needs to be done to make it 100% but jeez the bell is amazing. I'll be getting the bell removed to sell with the tuning slide, it will make someone very happy.

The best Bach basses I've played were elkharts.

Played Thein and found it over rated, missed out on buying one blind with a MV bell, not sorry now!!

[Lhbone]

Interesting to see the YEP-321 being mentioned again in here. The YEP-321 to me is a really great instrument and served me well in many contexts, varying from bigband to pit shows to wind orchestra. Likely wouldn't play orchestral stuff on it, but for everything else it is perfect. Mine intonates really well, sounds very full despite the small shank it takes and plays easily. Also got many positive comments about my euphonium sound and playing on that particular instrument. But everyone feels different of course.

I could certainly be remembering incorrectly since this conversation was over a decade ago, but I believe Norman Bolter used a Yamaha YEP-321 for Mahler 7, which IMO is the most iconic recording of that solo:

[TomInME]

What horns cost more than a used sedan, but aren't even worth as much as the cases they come in?

The 10.5 Bach has a really sh*tty case, so it can't be on this list. The case is what's overrated.

[ssking2b]

Wee, I guess to each their own. I'm happy with everything I own...so I must be maladjusted. I like horns on anm individual basis, not by brand.

[Posaunus]

Well, I guess to each their own. I'm happy with everything I own...so I must be maladjusted. I like horns on an individual basis, not by brand.

Me too. I am quite pleased with my small stable of "vintage" trombones. They play beautifully, and make me happy.

[Soulbrass]

RE: Holton TR-181…I’m a fan! There was a time when I was “seriously” studying bass trombone with a teacher who, true to the times and his orchestral roots, felt strongly that I play a Bach. He was a Bach ambassador and arranged for the school to acquire a 50B3 to which I had sole access for the years I was under his tutelage. It was an excellent horn.

The school also had a well-regarded jazz program within which were several big bands. Over my tenure there, I was able to work my way up to bass bone in the #1 band. I played there for 2 years.

I share all this because, when I made the #1 band and I had some money to buy a good horn, I bought a Holton. I bought it because it was a completely different animal than the Bach and I knew that [my] Bach wasn’t going anywhere. In the context of what was asked of the bass bone in those big bands, the Holton proved to be a beast! I continued to play the Bach and was lucky to have it when called upon to play Brahms, Dvorak, Copeland, and Stravinsky…but the Holton was absolutely a great tool to light up a thick bone section!

I can’t speak to production variances or Holton vs whatever, but, different horses for different courses…the Holton absolutely has its place!

[Fridge]

For me, it’s Bach. All models. The usual suspects like Getzen would be included. I use a Schilke Greenhoe TIS that’s great. Sorry Aidan, the lead pipe is the issue for a lot of players. I also have a really good Benge 290. It’s a very good horn. I’ve used this for big band gigs and I’m using this for a video soundtrack show next week. No, I wouldn’t use it to play with an orchestra. WhenI sub in the symphony, I use my Greenhoe.

Fridge

[Kbiggs]

The most over-rated horn is the one a vendor at the NAMM show (or ITF, or ETW, or…) hands you and says, “This one is our BEST SELLER!!!”