Cannonball Trombones

[amoss1s]

Hey all!

I’m a band teacher in SEMO, and I teach 7-12 band. Our Ernie Williamson rep is trying to convince me of these trombones. He says the large bore F attachment Cannonball step up model (TB15-L) is the same price as the small bore Yamaha student horns (YSL 354/ 200 AD) that I like to have my kids on.

1. Does anybody have any opinions on the Cannonball Trombones? He’s bringing some for me to play test on Wednesday, but I would like as many opinions as possible before I recommend to students. Would this be a good horn 7-12?

2. Would anybody recommend that you start kids on large bore, f attachment tenor?

3. I am open to any suggestions for teaching 7-12 trombones, I know there is a lot of wisdom on this forum!

[bus2]

Cannonball is another brand out of the basic Chinese factories. Might be Jinbao--one of my friends did quality control and development for their woodwinds. (I'm still laughing at their stone series models--they added stone keypads in the US to basic Jinbao (?) saxes, and charge a premium for fancy stones on the keys.) I can't remember which factory he visited, but in general the instruments are OK but not great. I would avoid at all costs.
Step up models in general are a waste of money. Start with a beginner instrument, and then move to a "professional" model instrument. To save money, could be a used large bore trombone that isn't as popular today, like a Conn 88H, or Bach 42BO.
The easiest large bore instruments to play will probably be Yamaha trombones. Shires Q series are decent, and easily good enough for HS through College to Pro.
That's my biased $.02 stream of opinions for today.

[Chazzer69]

There are a handful of mentions about Cannonball horns in prior posts if you just do a search. No real consensus though there seem to be some positive opinions about their saxes and trumpets.

When I was teaching, I never started kids on horns with F attachments. Not saying that you shouldn't but I think it defeats good pedagogy to an extent if you provide them with a 'shortcut' (the attachment) when starting out, unless you keep teaching the usage of the valve out of the picture until maybe after their first year. Kids should learn how to reach and use 6th and 7th positions, and giving them the tools to avoid using those up front, I think, is detrimental. But, that may be a bit of a snobbish view. Dependent on the stature of the student, they may struggle more with an already awkward horn if there is all that extra tubing and a valve. I'm assuming that your beginners are 7th graders and it may not be quite as big of a deal with that age. My beginners were always 6th graders and my experiences based on physically smaller kids.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about starting on a large bore horn having never started a kid on one of those either. (I purposefully separated "F-attachment" from "large bore" as they aren't always mutually inclusive and could be separate issues) I don't know what challenges a smaller kid might face, if any, trying to learn tone production and managing air on a large bore horn. I would just take into account ways to minimize any limiting factors to student success when you make a decision.

Do the kids buy their own horns or does the school provide them? If you have any opportunity to 'fit' a kid and provide a recommendation for the 'right size' horn before they buy one or the school puts one in their hands, that might be one way to go. There are, of course, inherent problems with the psychology of that as well. "Why does he/she get the big one and I gotta have this dinky one?!?!?"

It might also be interesting to inquire further as to why the store rep is trying to push those horns. Also, is he using the voice of experience (a former teacher) or are they just a salesperson? Maybe separately talk to their shop and ask about build quality. Do they see that brand of horn come in a lot for repairs?

Then there's the old adage "Bigger is not always better."

[Posaunus]

Absolutely no need to start beginners (11-14 years old) on large bore trombones. (But you already know this.)
Save the big guns for a few players as they mature and grow into a bigger sound. But not needed for all.

[Blabberbucket]

Back when I was working on school horns more frequently, the shop I was working for purchased a small batch of Cannonball straight trombones to test for the rental pool.

The quality on these horns was very poor - leaking/empty solder joints from the factory, poor build quality, poor slide tubes and setup. That may have changed since then, but I suspect they are still the typical low cost/high margin import instrument.

I would absolutely see if your sales rep has a demo instrument they can loan you for testing and inspection. If you have a local repair shop that you trust, I would suggest getting their input on the instrument as well.

[amoss1s]

Thank you for the input! I got to play test one today….hated it! Felt cheap and sounded like it too. On the other hand, the JP Rath that I tried was great!

[amoss1s]

There are a handful of mentions about Cannonball horns in prior posts if you just do a search. No real consensus though there seem to be some positive opinions about their saxes and trumpets.

When I was teaching, I never started kids on horns with F attachments. Not saying that you shouldn't but I think it defeats good pedagogy to an extent if you provide them with a 'shortcut' (the attachment) when starting out, unless you keep teaching the usage of the valve out of the picture until maybe after their first year. Kids should learn how to reach and use 6th and 7th positions, and giving them the tools to avoid using those up front, I think, is detrimental. But, that may be a bit of a snobbish view. Dependent on the stature of the student, they may struggle more with an already awkward horn if there is all that extra tubing and a valve. I'm assuming that your beginners are 7th graders and it may not be quite as big of a deal with that age. My beginners were always 6th graders and my experiences based on physically smaller kids.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about starting on a large bore horn having never started a kid on one of those either. (I purposefully separated "F-attachment" from "large bore" as they aren't always mutually inclusive and could be separate issues) I don't know what challenges a smaller kid might face, if any, trying to learn tone production and managing air on a large bore horn. I would just take into account ways to minimize any limiting factors to student success when you make a decision.

Do the kids buy their own horns or does the school provide them? If you have any opportunity to 'fit' a kid and provide a recommendation for the 'right size' horn before they buy one or the school puts one in their hands, that might be one way to go. There are, of course, inherent problems with the psychology of that as well. "Why does he/she get the big one and I gotta have this dinky one?!?!?"

It might also be interesting to inquire further as to why the store rep is trying to push those horns. Also, is he using the voice of experience (a former teacher) or are they just a salesperson? Maybe separately talk to their shop and ask about build quality. Do they see that brand of horn come in a lot for repairs?

Then there's the old adage "Bigger is not always better."

Thank you for your thoughts! The kids purchase their own horns, usually through a rent to own program. They have a system for stepping kids up and transferring the balance on a beginning horn to the step up model. We don’t really get to test kids on the instruments themselves, just mouthpiece testing! The salesmen a former teacher, but not a trombone player. He was (when he was a teacher) and is a big proponent on starting kids on step up instruments. I think I agree with keeping starters on small bores. I was very impressed with the small bore f attachment JP rates that he had and I think it going to start presenting those as a good option to parents and students.

[dcslideman]

In my humble, non-professional opinion, those 354's are the best start you can get for elementary/middle school. They are as good as step-ups. Around here band starts in 4th grade. I think a .525 (or .500-.525 dual bore) F attachment is all the step-up you need in high school(and still march with those 354's). Maybe the juniors and seniors headed for trombone performance major can dabble with the large bore for concert/orchestra. The only JP Rath I have played was very good too, though I didn't have it long enough to test longevity.