Yamaha 822g bass leadpipe question

[Rusty]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has had the leadpipe of an 822g Yeo bass bone pulled, and what would be a good aftermarket replacement?

I know the mouthpiece inserts further than usual but I’m not convinced that affects things negatively, as I usually find it responds and plays well, but would be interested to see how it would work with different pipes. I was thinking one of the Bach pipes made by Brassark/Brad Close would work well, or perhaps just a Shires #2 or something similar.

Any thoughts appreciated!

[pfrancis]

… the mouthpiece inserts further than usual but I’m not convinced that affects things negatively, as I usually find it responds and plays well, but would be interested to see how it would work with different pipes…

I have felt the same in conversations regarding other Yamaha trombones. As far as I can conceive, unless there is a direct correlation between how far the mouthpiece goes in and the relationship to the leadpipe Venturi this line of thinking falls apart. The insertion depth alone should be an indicator basically of nothing - all relationships may be the same while only changing those points along the length of the leadpipe.

If the leadpipe Venturi to end of mouthpiece distance is changing then the conversation is real and could be impacting a bunch of playing characteristics.

[Rusty]

… the mouthpiece inserts further than usual but I’m not convinced that affects things negatively, as I usually find it responds and plays well, but would be interested to see how it would work with different pipes…

I have felt the same in conversations regarding other Yamaha trombones. As far as I can conceive, unless there is a direct correlation between how far the mouthpiece goes in and the relationship to the leadpipe Venturi this line of thinking falls apart. The insertion depth alone should be an indicator basically of nothing - all relationships may be the same while only changing those points along the length of the leadpipe.

If the leadpipe Venturi to end of mouthpiece distance is changing then the conversation is real and could be impacting a bunch of playing characteristics.

Totally agree! Just keen to see if anyone has actually pulled the pipe and experimented with others.

[pfrancis]

For what it’s worth, I own/play a Yamaha 613H that receives the mouthpiece deeper than most “normal“ Bass trombones. I don’t find response to be abnormal or poor. To the contrary, in fact given that the 613H has a heavier build I think the response is quite good. I have played the 822g A number of times, with several different instruments, and never found the response to be a problem there either.

Perhaps blabberbucket can chime in about these relationships as they at O’Malley brass recently designed lead pipes for Yamaha smaller horns.

[Blabberbucket]

A traditionally flared trombone leadpipe is essentially two tapers meeting at the venturi: the mouthpiece receiver taper and the leadpipe taper opening into the inner slide tube. The receiver side has to be tapered at 0.05"/inch to fit a.modern mouthpiece appropriately. Because of this, the "gap" - the distance between the end of the mouthpiece and the venturi - is fixed based on the desired venturi size.

A "standard" large shank mouthpiece ends at an outer diameter just under 0.5". Because the receiver-side taper is required to be 0.05"/inch, a .450" venturi would wind up approx. 1" from the end of the mouthpiece, a .475" venturi would wind up approx 0.5" from the end of the mouthpiece, and so on.

The small bore Yamaha pipes with machined receivers, and our new large bore machined receiver leadpipes, are also set up in this way - two tapers meeting at the narrowest point. The receiver setup removes the inconsistencies that arise from flaring a tube, and allows for easier and more consistent setup of the leadpipe.

Assuming all of the above, changing the mouthpiece insertion depth will change the position of the venturi relative to the rest of the instrument, but not the "gap". This clearly has an impact on the performance of the instrument, but probably less than changing the gap or venturi. I believe there is a Griego video where he speaks about adjusting mouthpiece engagement for different pipes to adjust the characteristics of the leadpipe.

Some King leadpipes use a machined mouthpiece receiver set up similarly to a trumpet, which allows the gap to be set independently from the venturi.

I have also seen some flared leadpipes that have the standard flare for the mouthpiece receiver but then step down quickly at the end of mouthpiece, which would allow for a different "gap" distance.

A mouthpiece with a longer or shorter shank will also change your "gap" relationship.

With all of that said, I have not had a chance to closely inspect any large bore or bass Yamaha leadpipes. I would assume they are using a traditionally flared leadpipe.

I would be curious to hear from others that make leadpipes regarding all of this - I believe Brad Close posts on the forums from time to time. He may have some insight as well.

[hornbuilder]

The only way for you to know if a different pipe is an improvement is to try it. I would venture that a Bach 50 pipe (or one of the numerous "reproductions") would work well. Shires or Edwards #2 pipes would also be potential contenders.

Re insertion depth. It doesn't matter how much of the shank is covered by the receiver. What happens "after" the end of the mouthpiece is what matters. That is all part of the design of that particular pipe, to include the distance between the end of the shank and the venturi minor diameter. (Dave explained that relationship well, above) If your mouthpiece has the same shank dimensions as the mouthpiece the pipe was designed for, then it "should" play well.

Obviously any variance from intended design in either the leadpipe or mouthpiece will change this relationship. (A smaller than spec shank will obviously insert further, and make the distance between the end of the shank and venturi smaller, changing the blow considerably! Larger shank will increase the distance, and also change the blow)

I've done the experiment where I made 2 pipes of the same spec, but trimmed one longer on the receiver end. The relationship between the end of the shank and the venturi were the same, as was the length. Only difference was the amount of the shank that was covered by the receiver. So even though they "looked" like they inserted different depths into the leadpipe, they played exactly the same!

[pfrancis]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses David and Matthew!

…Assuming all of the above, changing the mouthpiece insertion depth will change the position of the venturi relative to the rest of the instrument, but not the "gap". …

David, this is what has bothered me with some other people’s statements/understanding of whats happening with insertion depth. Insertion depth (alone) is simply not a way to understand anything about how the leadpipe is actually designed to correlate to standard mouthpieces and the “gap” between components.

… Re insertion depth. It doesn't matter how much of the shank is covered by the receiver. …

… Only difference was the amount of the shank that was covered by the receiver. So even though they "looked" like they inserted different depths into the leadpipe, they played exactly the same!

Matthew, I think this perfectly sums it up.

Thread-jacking over! Rusty best of luck on your leadpipe hunt!

[Doug Elliott]

But... without actually measuring, you don't really know where the venturi is. And many factory leadpipes are extremely variable and inconsistent in receiver taper... and venturi... from what I've seen over the years.
If a given situation plays well, that's what's important. But some trial and error can be useful, instead of just assuming. "Insertion depth" is still about how it plays, but that's all there is to judge it visually..

Now talk about tuba receivers...

[hornbuilder]

Absolutely Doug!! All of my comments were being made on the assumption that all dimensions of the relevant parts were "to spec", whatever that may be.

[harrisonreed]

The Yamaha leadpipes that eat up the shank play like dogs, regardless of whether or not you measure the location of the venturi and see what the distance is to the end of the shank. There may be some good examples, and maybe the two I played were just outliers, but that's my experience.

I have found that taping the shank so it goes in the normal amount improved the xeno bases I've played. But only a small amount ... There is a lot going on with the xeno bases besides the leadpipes.

[Blabberbucket]

But... without actually measuring, you don't really know where the venturi is. And many factory leadpipes are extremely variable and inconsistent in receiver taper... and venturi... from what I've seen over the years.
If a given situation plays well, that's what's important. But some trial and error can be useful, instead of just assuming. "Insertion depth" is still about how it plays, but that's all there is to judge it visually..

Now talk about tuba receivers...

If anyone wants to send me their stock Yamaha bass leadpipe, I would be happy to measure it and share my measurements publicly, and to make a duplicate with a "standard" mouthpiece insertion for comparison.

[Doug Elliott]

I can also make larger taper shanks, which creates a longer space inside and in this particular case I think that would improve it. But maybe not. Trial and error.

[musicofnote]

The Yamaha leadpipes that eat up the shank play like dogs, regardless of whether or not you measure the location of the venturi and see what the distance is to the end of the shank. There may be some good examples, and maybe the two I played were just outliers, but that's my experience.

I have found that taping the shank so it goes in the normal amount improved the xeno bases I've played. But only a small amount ... There is a lot going on with the xeno bases besides the leadpipes.

My solution for that lead pipe problem I had with my old Yamaha 822g - traded it in for my Q36GR. Like night and day and even better with a new seamed copper MV50 from brass medic. They gave me $1400 in trade-in on the Q, so with the horn I've now got, no way I can complain.