King 4B Good for Marching Band?

[lsmallberger]

Just asking because I'm curious or if there's something I don't know, but my college marching band marches large-bore King 4B straight tenor trombones, which I always thought was weird because they are HUGE compared to most small-bore horns you can get.

Is this common for college bands (so they can have a larger sound)? I'd think it would be hard for a lot of casual marching band trombonists to have a sound that would fill a large bore horn like that.

[heldenbone]

Maybe the 4B is alright for marching, but I wouldn't do that to a 4B-F. There are scads of them around with creases in the slide-side rotor knuckle. Mine had it when I bought it second-hand. My repair tech was able to carefully tease it out without splitting.

[AtomicClock]

In the early 90's, Virginia Tech marched with straight .547 Blessings (B8, iirc). I never asked why. At the time, I had the mindset that smallbores were for children.

[JohnL]

It seems like a lot of the big-time college bands outfit their trombone sections with large bore f-attachment tenors.

[AtomicClock]

I wonder how hard it would be to solder on some armor/reinforcement around the valve knuckles. I bet it could be done assembly-line fashion pretty quickly. If JohnL is right, I'd be a little surprised if they don't just do it to the whole fleet prophylactically.

[Burgerbob]

Many of the 4BFs and 88Hs at my grad school had reinforcement soldered to the slide receiver to the valve.

[JohntheTheologian]

My back-up large bore is a Blessing B88. I plan to pass it on to my grandson in a couple of years for marching band.

I bought it from a seller in Texas. Apparently when Blessing was still making them in Elkhart they sold boat loads of them to Texas where High Schools used them in marching band. My grandson lives in Texas and I'm sure that he will be told that the medium bore King 607F he currently plays won't be "large enough" to be on the football field when he gets into HS>

[Posaunus]

My grandson lives in Texas and I'm sure that he will be told that the medium bore King 607F he currently plays won't be "large enough" to be on the football field when he gets into HS>

I guess everthang's bigger in Texas!

[Finetales]

Lots of 4BFs in marching bands across the country. Honestly that's probably where they get used the most these days. Straight 4Bs are less common (marching band or not) but still around.

If it were up to me I'd march a small bore that can peel paint, but it seems large bores with F are in style. HBCUs often use them (lotta 4BFs there), the big Texas schools all do, and plenty of college marching bands do. DCI also usually uses large bore trombones with F for some reason.

When I was in high school it was a mix of student small bores and older large bores with or without F, but I didn't have to march either as I marched baritone!

[JohntheTheologian]

It would seem like small bores with nickel or nickel plated bells like my old Conn 48h or King Tempos or old Reynolds Argentas or some modern take off of those designs would make good marching horns and be lighter to carry on the field.

[JohntheTheologian]

When I marched in HS, years ago, I used an old Martin that the assistant band director sold to me. It was a silver plated pea shooter Handcrafted model with nickel inner slides The wing nut slide lock was missing and I used a hose clamp to keep the slide attached which brought a number of snide remarks from section mates. That meant that I kept a screwdriver in my case to tighten the clamp.

It worked well, though and allowed me to keep my 48h Conn in pristine shape. When the gal marching next to me turned the wrong way and bashed the slide, it was never quite the same after it came back from the shop, but it worked well enough for marching band in HS and I even used it for pep band in college.

It ended up in Columbia, South America, where a missionary friend of mine with Salvation Army band background took it with a number of other horns he was collecting to use in brass bands he was organizing there.

It was an interesting old horn.

[JohnL]

If it were up to me I'd march a small bore that can peel paint, but it seems large bores with F are in style. HBCUs often use them (lotta 4BFs there), the big Texas schools all do, and plenty of college marching bands do. DCI also usually uses large bore trombones with F for some reason.

Because somewhere along the line, someone decided that bright is bad and dark is good and a whole lot of band directors drank that Kool-Aid by the pitcher.

Many of the 4BFs and 88Hs at my grad school had reinforcement soldered to the slide receiver to the valve.

Was it a preventive measure or something that was done after a repair?

[Burgerbob]

Many of the 4BFs and 88Hs at my grad school had reinforcement soldered to the slide receiver to the valve.

Was it a preventive measure or something that was done after a repair?

Most of them were preventative, before they were broken.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Being that I played a King 4BF for several years, I really don’t think of that model as a “large bore” trombone. The leadpipe is rather tight and the F-attachment is a .547 bore (most large bore tenors have a .562 F-attachment). The bell throat is a bit more narrow than other large bore tenors.

The result (for me) was a trombone that played brighter and projected very easily…..but not the particular sound that is sought in most modern “symphonic” settings. I had a tough time matching the depth of sound of the Bach 42s and Conn 88Hs around me when I played my King 4BF in college. Thus, I can see why the 4B or 4BF would be a great choice for a collegiate marching band. It has all the components needed for a great marching band trombone: brightness of sound, easy to play loud with projection, ease of playing in all registers, etc…. I just don’t view it as a great “symphonic” horn.

[Kbiggs]

Being that I played a King 4BF for several years, I really don’t think of that model as a “large bore” trombone. The leadpipe is rather tight and the F-attachment is a .547 bore (most large bore tenors have a .562 F-attachment). The bell throat is a bit more narrow than other large bore tenors.

The result (for me) was a trombone that played brighter and projected very easily…..but not the particular sound that is sought in most modern “symphonic” settings. I had a tough time matching the depth of sound of the Bach 42s and Conn 88Hs around me when I played my King 4BF in college. Thus, I can see why the 4B or 4BF would be a great choice for a collegiate marching band. It has all the components needed for a great marching band trombone: brightness of sound, easy to play loud with projection, ease of playing in all registers, etc…. I just don’t view it as a great “symphonic” horn.

I had a 4B in my early college years. I liked the horn, but you’re right—it has a different sound than a Bach or a Conn.

IIRC, the 4 and 4B were designed for members of the Cleveland Orchestra when George Szell was their conductor. Szell wanted a more traditional Germanic-sounding trombone sound, and the CO trombone section got together with the instrument maker-designer at King (George Strucel / Struesel (?)). The 4/4B is definitely not a Germanic-sounding instrument. I think of it as a hybrid instrument that blends characteristics of both German and American style instruments: brighter sound profile overall, easier upper register (yes all registers), superior slide action, superior F-valve and valve action, very different sound/feedback to the player.

I kind of wish I’d kept that horn, but I’d have no place to play it these days.

[JohnL]

Szell wanted a more traditional Germanic-sounding trombone sound, and the CO trombone section got together with the instrument maker-designer at King (George Strucel / Struesel (?)).

George McCracken
In addition to the 4B and its derivatives, he also designed the Duo Gravis, and well as the King Eroica & Fidelio French horns (probably some other stuff, too). AFAIK, he's still around, building highly-regarded French horns down in the San Diego area.

[mwpfoot]

We shared a 4BF to play the bass bone parts when I was in college.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yikes! When I think of the playing characteristics of a 4BF, I find it closer to a Bach 36 or Conn 78. I would really struggle to make it play like a bass or play a demanding bass trombone part with it. That’s just me though.

[BGuttman]

I played a 4BF in concert band and adult marching band. We didn't do fancy stuff; just marched and played. If you were going to do choreography I'd recommend the brace between the knuckles on the attachment -- that's a stress point when you do any quick movements.

[Cmiertschin]

Lots of 4BFs in marching bands across the country. Honestly that's probably where they get used the most these days. Straight 4Bs are less common (marching band or not) but still around.

If it were up to me I'd march a small bore that can peel paint, but it seems large bores with F are in style. HBCUs often use them (lotta 4BFs there), the big Texas schools all do, and plenty of college marching bands do. DCI also usually uses large bore trombones with F for some reason.

When I was in high school it was a mix of student small bores and older large bores with or without F, but I didn't have to march either as I marched baritone!

My college marching band uses (I believe) silver plated 3B’s now. They were largely an assortment of silver plated small horns when I was there. In my own pep band (not marching) I use my King Tempo for the paint peeling factor (small band, so I can trombone-conduct as needed), and generally have my students play small bores as well. Bright and a little spicy sounds more fun!

[officermayo]

Absolutely.