Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 am

I played a single Bach 50B for a few months in undergrad out of necessity. I also own a single 50T now as a backup horn that I love.

But, here's a writeup of my experience with a 50B-

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,79716.0.html

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:44 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 09:26 AMMy bad..

Well, not entirely! There are probably lots of scores that don't require the ability to play Eb. You'd just have to be strategic.

The "F" valve does give you access to the middle ground between pedals and that low E, but it also grants some extra facility in the bass clef register. Dependent valves originally gave some additional fluency in the lower register while keeping the facility in the bass clef register.

So a "D" interchangeable with an "Eb" valve and an "F" valve could work but I really don't think there are enough instances of music where a "D" or "Eb" attachment would make more sense than an "F" attachment. Especially if you can at least get an "E" pull out of the F attachment.

ttf_donn · Post by **ttf_donn** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:09 am

Well, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right? Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is. There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb. Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F. If you're going for two valves, then never mind.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:15 am

Quote from: donn on Yesterday at 11:09 AMWell, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right? Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is. There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb. Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F. If you're going for two valves, then never mind.

Yeah, that's the basic idea but also sound to some extent. As I mentioned, I've rarely played anything where the tradeoff was worth it to not have at least a dependent much less a single valve in Eb. But I also have short arms so that may have something to do with it

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:50 am

Quote from: donn on Yesterday at 11:09 AMWell, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right? Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is. There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb. Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F. If you're going for two valves, then never mind.

There are people who can play down there without the valve. I did a video to demonstrate this a couple of years ago. I have worked on those factitious notes since the early 80-ies. They were hard at first but become better as my embouchure got better over all. Now the only problem is when a low note is a very long note, because of the problem I have with stagger breathing. I'm not saying I do this perfect, but this is not because they can not be done. It's just because I still has work to do.

There are other demos out there too that I have seen. Most settle with just getting a fuzzy sound, a sound that is not usable. I know the goals can be higher, because I've heard them played with perfection. They can sound just as good as other notes on the trombone, but needs care and work. I think people rather buy a trigger trombone and then they don't practice enough at the factitious notes. Why should they? There is still reasons to work at them because they help form the correct embouchure down there.

Here is the link. I'm playing a Bach 42 without a valve

https://youtu.be/M83mrOympwI

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:00 am

Nicely done, Tom. That's inspiring! There were times where your falset notes sounded just about as good as any other note. I think playing a large-bore horn helps in the regard?

Some students may wonder; why practice those notes when they can just use the trigger to get them. I think the reason is anything new or different we can learn to do that makes the embouchure stronger and more flexible helps out everything else we can already do.

...Geezer

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:14 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 04:00 AMNicely done, Tom. That's inspiring! There were times where your falset notes sounded just about as good as any other note. I think playing a large-bore horn helps in the regard?

Some students may wonder; why practice those notes when they can just use the trigger to get them. I think the reason is anything new or different we can learn to do that makes the embouchure stronger and more flexible helps out everything else we can already do.

...Geezer

Yes, I've heard that before. Some think they are better on a large bore. I don't think they are. I can do them with the same result on a small bore.

I have a demo of this too from about two years ago. As before: If they are not perfect in this demo it is not because they can not be done with perfection it is because I did not put enough work into this. The notes are there and feels like real notes, but a little more difficult to control as you know.

Here is that link and the trombone is a King 3b Silver Sonic. The bore is .508

https://youtu.be/fk6kDPGuxbw

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:29 am

Lol. There you go! Well done!

So there's a lesson for young students out there. A valve isn't absolutely necessary. It's mainly there for convenience. Symphonic orchestral players will probably disagree b/c playing those notes on a valved instrument will make them project more at a quality standard they must adhere to on the professional symphonic level; keys word being professional.

...Geezer

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:44 am

I use a single when I don't need a double.... I have a single and double Hagmann set for the Raths. I have single and double Holtons and Conns. Don't carry plumbing that you don't need.
Great false notes on those last two links... bravo.

Chris Stearn

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:07 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 04:29 AMLol. There you go! Well done!

So there's a lesson for young students out there. A valve isn't absolutely necessary. It's mainly there for convenience. Symphonic orchestral players will probably disagree b/c playing those notes on a valved instrument will make them project more at a quality standard they must adhere to on the professional symphonic level; keys word being professional.

...Geezer

Yes there are lessons to learn. One is "don't think it is not doable", and another is "It is possible to play those notes in a professional context". I know there are people who have done this in professional contexts. It has been done in the best symphony orchestras in Sweden, factitious notes can be heard on thousands of records, the catch is it is so perfect that you will not be able to tell the difference

I would not go to a bass trombone gig with a small bore straight trombone and I don't think anyone should, but the factitious notes can be played very well on a bass trombone. And too me the false tones C and B are better and more secure on a bass than on a tenor. The trigger T2 for C and the T3 for B.

Here is a link to a clip that shows when fakenotes can be used on the single valved bass. I use a Bach 50 single trigger in the video-clip.

https://youtu.be/sLGCX0AeR54

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:19 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Today at 05:07 AMYes there are lessons to learn. One is "don't think it is not doable". And as to play those notes in a professional context. I know there are people who have done this in professional contexts. It has been done in the best symphony orchestras in Sweden, factitious notes can be heard on thousands of records, the catch is it is so perfect that you will not be able to tell the difference

I would not go to a bass trombone gig with a small bore straight trombone and I don't think anyone should, but the fictitious notes can be played very well on a bass trombone. And too me the false tones C and B are better and more secure on a bass than on a tenor. The trigger T2 for C and the T3 for B.

https://youtu.be/sLGCX0AeR54

/Tom

I didn't know that! However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is inclined to argue your point.

Anyway, as to the thread title, I am about to find out. I just bought a vintage King 4B/F and I have a used Bach 3G mouthpiece on order. I am curious to find out just how convincingly I can learn to play bass on a single valve.

I am trying to build my range up on tenor at an age where a lot of pros are working hard to KEEP their upper range. It may be a losing battle on my part, so I want to develop my skills at playing lower on a larger (but not too large) horn. The first part is finding the right horn for me and the second part is developing my own arrangements that are pitched correspondingly lower.

While I love the sound I get on a Conn 88H with a Bach 5G mouthpiece, I find the typical trigger on an 88H to be VERY uncomfortable for me. I thought about having it swapped out for a Thayer valve, but I don't really like the large and - to me - clumsy feel of said valve. A lot of guys say they don't like the King paddle triggers, but I love them, hence the purchase of a King 4B/F.

I've read where a lot of guys just can not make a nice low B in T3. I personally don't see the big deal about it. It's just another note to learn.

...Geezer

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:02 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 05:19 AMI didn't know that! However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is inclined to argue your point.

Anyway, as to the thread title, I am about to find out. I just bought a vintage King 4B/F and I have a used Bach 3G mouthpiece on order. I am curious to find out just how convincingly I can learn to play bass on a single valve.

I am trying to build my range up on tenor at an age where a lot of pros are working hard to KEEP their upper range. It may be a losing battle on my part, so I want to develop my skills at playing lower on a larger (but not too large) horn. The first part is finding the right horn for me and the second part is developing my own arrangements that are pitched correspondingly lower.

While I love the sound I get on a Conn 88H with a Bach 5G mouthpiece, I find the typical trigger on an 88H to be VERY uncomfortable for me. I thought about having it swapped out for a Thayer valve, but I don't really like the large and - to me - clumsy feel of said valve. A lot of guys say they don't like the King paddle triggers, but I love them, hence the purchase of a King 4B/F.

I've read where a lot of guys just can not make a nice low B in T3. I personally don't see the big deal about it. It's just another note to learn.

...Geezer

I think a 4b with trigger could be used as a small bass, with no doubt. I have often used my large bore trombones as the third part and either I tune the valve to a flat F if I need a C or a Flat E if I need a B, or I use false notes. (To me) When speed is fast they are often better as false notes and when they are sustained they are better as a regular note with F-valve-pull.

Good luck with the 3G. I have a Hammond 11 ML that I use with my large bore horns if playing bass on them, and I think a 11 ML is about the size of a 3G, and I agree that the B on T3 is just another one to learn. Not much different from the C on T2. The notable difference is a little more resistance, but the resistance is not making it more difficult, it is in fact the other way around. To me the B is even better than the C because of that.

/Tom

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:05 am

It sounds good Tom! I have tried this false notes a lot but I sound to bad. I have no trouble to get them, but my problem is the sound quality. It's not good. Strange thing is I make them best on the 70h. But still it isn't good enough. Maybe I didn't practice them enough. You seem to have practiced a lot on them Tom? But back to topic, for my little playing the single trigger 60h is working nice. And I also have the two valve Holton Bass.

Leif

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:46 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Today at 06:02 AMI think a 4b with trigger could be used as a small bass, with no doubt. I have often used my large bore trombones as the third part and either I tune the valve to a flat F if I need a C or a Flat E if I need a B, or I use false notes. (To me) When speed is fast they are often better as false notes and when they are sustained they are better as a regular note with F-valve-pull.

Good luck with the 3G. I have a Hammond 11 ML that I use with my large bore horns if playing bass on them, and I think a 11 ML is about the size of a 3G, and I agree that the B on T3 is just another one to learn. Not much different from the C on T2. The notable difference is a little more resistance, but the resistance is not making it more difficult, it is in fact the other way around. To me the B is even better than the C because of that.

/Tom

Thanks Tom. Concert band, swing band or big band as well as sentimental ballads at home would be fair game for me with a King 4B/F & 3-4 or 5G mpc. Symphonic groups on all levels would be out. Even if, for some odd reason, I was invited, I would politely decline.

...Geezer

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:02 am

Quote from: savio on Today at 07:05 AMIt sounds good Tom! I have tried this false notes a lot but I sound to bad. I have no trouble to get them, but my problem is the sound quality. It's not good. Strange thing is I make them best on the 70h. But still it isn't good enough. Maybe I didn't practice them enough. You seem to have practiced a lot on them Tom? But back to topic, for my little playing the single trigger 60h is working nice. And I also have the two valve Holton Bass.

Leif

They can be more or less easy on different horns, that is also something I've noticed, but they are there on all my horns. Some lock into the pitch more easy than others. It feels like the tolerance is just different. The same as finding the sweet spot for the best sound on any note. You know when you find it because the sound grows with no effort. The same with the factitious notes. You know when you find the sweet spot because the horn sings with no effort.

The fault I did in the beginning was I forced them. That is I used far more air and force than needed. No need for that because they are just as any note in that register.

The second fault was I used to much pressure on them. I don't know why I did this. I think I had not developed my embouchure enough so my corners were not firm enough to really play securely below the staff. I had bad attacks and bad control on the regular valve positions too because of this. Firm corners helped.

The third fault I did was I useed a too open aparture. They got better after I changed this. To me the breakthrough was after I began experimenting with the airstream, where to aim the airstream on those factitious notes. No use telling you what that means because I don't expect to be understood, but that last ingredient made my day. The sound became more resonant and once you experience it you know it is just about repetition.

I can recommend a lesson with Sven Larsson at the forum to learn the factitious notes as well as other avant garde techniques like circular breathing, split-tones and multiphonics. He is the man!!!

I'm just a student of his

/Tom

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:39 am

Yes Tom, I really could need a lesson or two with him.

Leif

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:24 pm

Interesting differences between a King 4B/F and a Conn 88H - both with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. The King is a little bit more focused, while the Conn has some softer edges to it's sound. Both have big sounds. Both would be great in big band, swing band, concert band, etc. Both would be great on sentimental ballads. Neither would be my pick for fast, lively jazz solos with an edge, although if I had to pick one it would be the King. If I kept both, I would favor the Conn for church work and the King for any chair band work.

Next up is to get to work on a 3G mouthpiece and see if I can learn to make some credible bass trombone sounds on this single-trigger large-bore King.

...Geezer

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:59 pm

I believe you could make some good bass sounds out of that equipment geezer. It depends more on style,attitude and practice than equipment. I ask both family and trombonists I work with. They don't notice much difference whatever I play. It's more in my head than what really comes out the bell. Never the less, it's good to have equipment we feel comfortable with. It's nothing wrong with single or double bass trombones, depended or independed, Bach or King. We just have to love it, practice it an grow with it. Problem is when the desire of equipment is higher than the desire to work and develop our self as musicians.

Leif

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:27 pm

Quote from: donn on Jul 26, 2017, 07:38AMI am tempted. Already somewhat used to Bb/E with stock configuration. I guess not many players ever go outside of Bb/F?

I did pretty much every gig when I was exclusively using my 72H. Depending on the tune I would choose to either keep it in F and false tone the occasional B (and sometimes C), or put it in E. Some seriously gnarly licks occurred, like low F to pedal Bb to low B in an 8th note triplet. With the valve in E, that's 6-1-long 7th in very little time. Anything is doable!

Quote from: watermailonman on Jul 27, 2017, 09:02AMI can recommend a lesson with Sven Larsson at the forum to learn the factitious notes as well as other avant garde techniques like circular breathing, split-tones and multiphonics. He is the man!!!

Quote from: savio on Jul 27, 2017, 11:39AMYes Tom, I really could need a lesson or two with him.

Leif

Me too!!!

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Quote from: savio on Jul 28, 2017, 03:59PMI believe you could make some good bass sounds out of that equipment geezer. It depends more on style,attitude and practice than equipment. I ask both family and trombonists I work with. They don't notice much difference whatever I play. It's more in my head than what really comes out the bell. Never the less, it's good to have equipment we feel comfortable with. It's nothing wrong with single or double bass trombones, depended or independed, Bach or King. We just have to love it, practice it an grow with it. Problem is when the desire of equipment is higher than the desire to work and develop our self as musicians.

Leif

Thank you Leif. I think you are right; style, attitude and practice are key to playing well - on any type of equipment.

While I can hear a noticeable difference in the two horns I mentioned above, my wife was not able to discern very much of a difference; even up close. And the further away she got, the more it was lost. But as a saying goes, before we can please others, we must first be able to please ourselves.

...Geezer

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:18 pm

I think it is interesting that I can hear a difference between both horns with a Bach 5G mpc - with the 88H being the best. And yet, with a Bach 3G mpc, the difference is reversed, with the King having a nicer sound to my ear. So I guess we can not discount the physics of matching a mpc with a horn with a player! I know! Duh! But it's interesting to actually hear it in action.

...Geezer

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:43 am

I have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:51 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Today at 01:43 AMI have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?

Personally I wouldn't. There are a few too many commonly asked excerpts that I believe would be made unnecessarily difficult by only having one valve. Ones that spring to mind are Brahms 1, heldenleben, the entrance of the gods (Rheingold) just to name a few. They are playable on a single valve of course, butI think that most players would find them harder. A few might be able to make them work.

Why limit yourself though? If the sound you get from a single is what you consider to be your best sound then I suppose it's worth it, but you will be competing against people that will have the facility of two valves.... not impossible just unnecessary extra work.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:36 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Today at 01:43 AMI have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?
Most audition lists include something that I want the second valve on. If they had something that DIDN'T require it in any way, I would probably make the change that I would make performing that music... which would be single valve.

If it were an audition format that had any sort of sight reading or added section work with a large selection of excerpts to choose from, I can almost guarantee that the double would be coming.

That said, most of my orchestra days were done on a single. Even the pops stuff. Unless there are a ton of B's, I'm generally single. Or fast C's. If the C's are big and not too quick (for example the Star Wars stuff off the top of my head), I just pull the F slide a bit for that section to make it more solid. Thinking about adding a Bartok lever to make that easier, but probably not as it is a lot of effort and money for not much benefit.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:58 am

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:44 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 02:58AMMany bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.

And that just about sums it up

Chris Stearn

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:52 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 02:58AMMany bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.

Yes I think most serious bass trombone players would own both a single and a double for various scenarios. I have a conn 70h which I have used in a lot of Brahms and Mozart stuff, but I find myself using it less and less these days.
I have seen music that I don't think is playable on a single. A lot of modern bass trombone solos come to mind.

The last question though was wether you would be comfortable playing a single in a professional orchestral audition. Is there anyone that has won one recently on a single? I would be curious to know myself.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:24 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 02:58AMMany bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.

Not because I disagree with owning a single valve BUT I own 3 bass trombones, all double dependent horns. I do agree that many pieces can be played on a single valve but I actually like the feeling of a double valve horn. That being said none of my instruments are heavy. One day maybe I'll pick one up.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:58 am

Different horns for different uses.

So now I'm thinking my 88H (even if I don't like the trigger) with a Bach 5G mouthpiece will be perfect for church small brass ensemble where I am the only 'bone; for it's classic and dare I say poetic sound.

My King 4B/F seems perfect for large concert band sectional work for it's slightly more focused and big-band sound. A Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece just does not seem like a good match for that particular horn, while a Bach 5G mouthpiece seems okay but perhaps a tad small, while a Bach 3G mouthpiece seems a bit heavy for a 2nd part. So I ordered a Bach 4G mouthpiece. One of those Goldilocks should be just right.

While it is certainly possible, I really don't see myself participating on a bass or 4th trombone part or symphonic part any time soon. So I'm guessing there will be no need to entertain notions of a double-trigger bass trombone. Am I right? I think I'm right. But maybe I am not in my right mind...

...Geezer

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:24 am

Anything is possible with enough practice. I've owned a single valve Bach, Conn 60H, Conn 72H and a King Symphony. All single valve basses.

Yes, it is possible to lip notes down. But is it the best quality sound, or is it just an acceptable sound to produce the pitch? You can prove that any pitch is possible in any position with enough practice: ie. Phil Wilson using 1st position for a low G on a straight horn.

But after enough practice it is just so much easier to produce the pitches with security and confidence if the length of the horn is long enough so that you can blow THROUGH the horn freely, without lipping.

An extreme example-- I play a regular gig with a huge amplified Christian Pentecostal orchestra. On the stand there are both acoustic contrabass, and amplified electric bass, with with 4 strings or 5 strings. Eventually the choir becomes spoiled--as does the soundman, and they expect to hear a solid pedal CC. ( What, 6 ledgers down?). With a single valve bass pulled to Eb, both pedal BB and pedal CC the very bottom notes, just fall out of the horn when it is the proper length.
Now, why use a single valve to play the bottom two notes available on a single valve when there is a 5 string electric bass available?
Because there is no decay on the note when played with breath on a brass instrument. The vocal soloist can just sit on their note and be supported by a pedal CC or pedal BB. And on a single valve the attack is 100% secure and can be timed perfectly, without concern for the minute possibility of back-pressure causing a faulty attack.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:54 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 02, 2017, 06:24AMAnything is possible with enough practice. I've owned a single valve Bach, Conn 60H, Conn 72H and a King Symphony. All single valve basses.

Yes, it is possible to lip notes down. But is it the best quality sound, or is it just an acceptable sound to produce the pitch? You can prove that any pitch is possible in any position with enough practice: ie. Phil Wilson using 1st position for a low G on a straight horn.

But after enough practice it is just so much easier to produce the pitches with security and confidence if the length of the horn is long enough so that you can blow THROUGH the horn freely, without lipping.

An extreme example-- I play a regular gig with a huge amplified Christian Pentecostal orchestra. On the stand there are both acoustic contrabass, and amplified electric bass, with with 4 strings or 5 strings. Eventually the choir becomes spoiled--as does the soundman, and they expect to hear a solid pedal CC. ( What, 6 ledgers down?). With a single valve bass pulled to Eb, both pedal BB and pedal CC the very bottom notes, just fall out of the horn when it is the proper length.
Now, why use a single valve to play the bottom two notes available on a single valve when there is a 5 string electric bass available?
Because there is no decay on the note when played with breath on a brass instrument. The vocal soloist can just sit on their note and be supported by a pedal CC or pedal BB. And on a single valve the attack is 100% secure and can be timed perfectly, without concern for the minute possibility of back-pressure causing a faulty attack.

So for some clarification do you mean Pedal C or "Low C". As you're also speaking of pedal Bb I'm assuming you mean 2 ledger lines below?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:06 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Aug 02, 2017, 06:54AMSo for some clarification do you mean Pedal C or "Low C". As you're also speaking of pedal Bb I'm assuming you mean 2 ledger lines below?
He mean pedal CC ledger lines and pedal BB (not Bb) 6 ledgers down.
QuoteWith a single valve bass pulled to Eb Did you have the attacment slide rebuilt?
Pull to a good Eb must be the best way. I am thinking of asking my tech to fix one of my trombonbes like that.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:17 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 07:06AMPull to a good Eb must be the best way. I am thinking of asking my tech to fix one of my trombonbes like that.

Another guy here (jackbird?) who suggested the Eb tuning on a single valve took a fair bit of grief for it because he used electrical tape instead of solder. I've used an Eb extension, and for the C and B (2 ledger lines down) it works great. It's less good when you have to go E-Eb-E, but that's the trade off. I'm having a plug-in valve made for my Holton TR-159 to make that a lot easier. The 159 is front heavy, and needs the extra weight, and its the horn I put the Eb extension on. The 159 isn't even really a single valve bass, it's just an oversized tenor that happens to sound great down low as well as up high.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:17 pm

I do mean pedal CC and pedal BB, six spaces or 6 lines below the bass clef staff. Eb attachments can be made -- using glue/tape/solder/epoxy for $10 using model rocket tubing that nests into inner and outers.

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:53 pm

When I was high school and university age I had a single valve bass. I won the auditions and played all the notes. I practiced low C's and B's in trigger 1st, trigger 2nd and at the end of the slide. Life got easier when I got the funds to buy a double valve bass. But, you play what ya got and practice even more.
I play a straight tenor and just play the low notes or if I am playing a tenor with valve I often play low C with the valve in 1st.

My point. Not everyone has the best horn or the right horn for the job. Does not make them in the wrong mind.

Now I am off to practice some loud double peddles on my tenor.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:27 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 02:58AMMany bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.

I was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it. I've subbed in a few groups where the conductor questions me about not having a second valve. I'll grab the single first, but I practice on a dependent just to be ready. I do have 3 total. The 3rd is a spare.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:12 pm

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Aug 02, 2017, 04:27PMI was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it. I've subbed in a few groups where the conductor questions me about not having a second valve. I'll grab the single first, but I practice on a dependent just to be ready. I do have 3 total. The 3rd is a spare.

Seriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:57 pm

Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 02, 2017, 08:12PMSeriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

I agree with "presumably"--these seem to be the most common explanations for using a single valve horn. I'm not sure that "lighter and easier to hold and play" and "fewer valves" are always or should be the deciding factors, though. (I also question the assumption "fewer valves = less stuffy," but that's a different subject.) To me, a more important consideration is whether the single valve horn will have the sound and response I want in the pieces I'm playing. As a lot of people have already described, there are lots of technical solutions to playing low C's and B's on a single-valve horn.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:52 pm

Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 02, 2017, 08:12PMSeriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

I haul around 2 horns. Having a straight bone wouldnt hurt you at all.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:28 am

Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 02, 2017, 08:12PMSeriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

Well Chris Stern did infact reply when and why he does. You are right that the thread is not about personal answers but mostly of other things such as if a single tenor can be used as a bass trombone in general and how to play C and B. Of course a tenor can be used as a bass trombone. Not all music needs a true bass or two valves.

I think most of us "don't think we would be in our right mind" if we decline the double on a gig and are stubborn and play things on the single lf we know that we can not execute the music as good as we can on the double.

There are only a few here who can play everything they need on a single and their answer is "yes" to the question. The only one I know here to do that is Sven Larsson.

Obviously very few can play a factitious note and make it sound as good as on their regular position on the double (a conclusion to draw from ALL the threads about false notes at the forum). They who can't need to retune the instrument if they need C or B and they need to lip down those notes at least the B. Maybe this works good enough. Some in the thread say they do this.

Some do have given a special reason to use the single as Kevin Marsh said when he talked about the CC and Chris who said the reason is weight and less tubing and Svenne who can play anything on the single. Some choose the single for sound. Svenne does this and I have heard him use the false tones fluently, and I think he is in his right mind when "he plays the single valve bass". The sound he gets is full and clear just as his other notes and to articulate them is not a problem either. I also heard him do circular breathing on them, with crescendo

I can play a false tone with good sound but at any professional gig I have had on the bass I have always brought my double, because I don't know what to expect. Even though I have had a double it has happened I played a C or a B as a false note because it is sometimes faster with false tones instead of using two triggers. Speed can be a problem if they are side by side like a Conn 73h or a Yamaha 612R. It could also be a problem on a King Duo Gravis. The Holton TR180 with the "bar" is the next best system. The fastest is to operate the second valve with the middle finger.

There is another thread going on to question who would choose the single in an audition. That is a special context. My guess is all bring a double if they don't know what to expect because of the competition. It is a very rare circumstance and there could be much to loose. What if you have to play a fast chromatic scale down there and can't do false tones? Can you bring two horns? Aspiring professional bass tromboneplayers need to know how to play a double because they do not practice their factitious notes enough. A lost art.

The answers for this thread were there if you just look closely

And this post by Aidan, three years ago, was very good

It sums up what you have to be able to do in real life on the bass. It is not the most difficult I've seen either, but a single without "false tones" could be very hard in the examples he listed.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 26, 2017, 09:27AMI played a single Bach 50B for a few months in undergrad out of necessity. I also own a single 50T now as a backup horn that I love.

But, here's a writeup of my experience with a 50B-

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,79716.0.html

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:59 am

QuoteI was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it
Lighter horn. Easier to hold because you do not need to use the middle finger on a trigger.
Simple the best sounding horns I found are singels.
I do use a double sometimes. ok?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:09 am

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:12 pm

I've seen a demo of this on Youtube. I don't know what the mod is called, but it looks like a good idea.

ttf_Alex · Post by **ttf_Alex** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:21 pm

It seems to me, as bass bone player, that of the people who talk on here about playing a single valve bass trombone, it is not the only bass they have access to.
It seems like an option that they have access to and use it when it is the right tool for the job.
There seem to be others who primarily play tenor and double on bass, and use a single as their bass option, maybe because it does what they need and it save time learning the extra valve.
I dont see too many people playing exclusively on a single valve bass.
From the bass players I come accross in my area, I havent seen any of them on a single.

I used one for 6 months (a Yamaha 321) and hated the first couple of weeks. Then it just clicked, and I really enjoyed it. Having only 1 valve caused me an issue in a few charts, but they were in the minority. I found the weight to be an issue. I found it unbalanced having played an indi for so long. So to me, the single "felt" heavier.
I dont think the experience made me a better player, but if I had to use a single valve bass, it wouldn't bother me. There are a couple of bands i do where a single might give me a bit of a headache, but I reckon I could still do a good enough job to get asked back.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:43 pm

It's called a Bartok valve.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:56 pm

Right Alex.
But I did play exlusively single basses for about 20-25 years proffesionelly in bigbands in Sweden and Germany tured in many countries with Symphony orchestras bigbands and internationally artist partisipated in at least 1000 recordings, I did work a lot. The horns where Williams 10 a number of Conn Bach Holton and also Yamaha 321. Even when playing my double Kanstul I do use false tones sometimes to be able to do fast runs or a short loud tones. For long low C and B a double i easier, but still doable on a single.

I did play the Bartok glissand B-F many times on a single to.

ttf_Alex · Post by **ttf_Alex** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:17 pm

Yes Svenne, I always read your posts with interest as you make a lot of sense.
I think, in 20 years or so, there will be less and less role models using single valve basses to the point where they will become collectors items.
I only played a single because, at that time, because it was all that was available to me. My Holton 181 was scrapped and I was waiting on my replacement trombone.
I spent enough time to realise I can get by on one valve. I have never been able to do false tones, so I had to be a bit more musically creative on the very few charts that would have been easier with 2 valves.
I honestly think that the single valve bass will eventually be something only seen in the hands of a pro player, using it for his job.
Not because it isnt useable, but more because who can afford 2 basses ?

I dont know what happens in musical education. But how far would a good student of bass bone get in a top college or conservatory using only a single valve bass ? Would they eventually be forced to change, or would the teacher enjoy the challenge of having a really good student to teach them how to use the single valve bass trombone ?
Maybe thats a different discussion.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:09 pm

Quote from: Alex on Aug 03, 2017, 02:17PMYes Svenne, I always read your posts with interest as you make a lot of sense.
I think, in 20 years or so, there will be less and less role models using single valve basses to the point where they will become collectors items.
I only played a single because, at that time, because it was all that was available to me. My Holton 181 was scrapped and I was waiting on my replacement trombone.
I spent enough time to realise I can get by on one valve. I have never been able to do false tones, so I had to be a bit more musically creative on the very few charts that would have been easier with 2 valves.
I honestly think that the single valve bass will eventually be something only seen in the hands of a pro player, using it for his job.
Not because it isnt useable, but more because who can afford 2 basses ?

I dont know what happens in musical education. But how far would a good student of bass bone get in a top college or conservatory using only a single valve bass ? Would they eventually be forced to change, or would the teacher enjoy the challenge of having a really good student to teach them how to use the single valve bass trombone ?
Maybe thats a different discussion.

I think your observations and predictions are brilliant.

The evidence is right under our noses, hiding in plain sight.

...Geezer

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:26 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 03, 2017, 01:43PMIt's called a Bartok valve.

Thanks. I was looking at the video and wondering whether using bicycle linkage etc might be more elegant, but thats a new topic..

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 am

I was one of that first generation to really embrace the double valve bass trombone. I got my 73H when I was 15 years old. All the guys in the London orchestras then played single valve basses. I wondered why these top players had not run out and bought doubles.... when I asked, they simply said that doubles were too heavy. There was more to it, of course but they were not letting on to a pushy kid.
I have owned and used singles together with doubles since my collage days.... I have auditioned, and won trials, on a single (though I would never recommend it today). I won my job on a Holton TR185 with the slot-in valve.
I need a double available to feel comfortable but often use single set-ups.
What did those top London players avoid telling me all that time ago ???
ALL the best bass trombones I have played have been singles.... that includes the Edwards I had 25 years ago that I bought with the single adaptor as well as the double Thayers.... played better in single mode.... and the Raths I have today that can be configured with one or two Hagmanns.... play better as singles.
Singles respond better... period.
Don't try and boil it down to the gooseneck, simple weight or such like....
They really BLOW and put you in a more simple musical mind set....
On the other hand, I have some great doubles

Chris Stearn