Ethics in selling an instrument

[Markinsky]

Please move this to the correct forum if it needs it.

I am seriously considering buying a trombone on consignment at my local repair shop. I have it on loan for a week and during rehearsal I noticed the slide has drag and hitch around flat second position. Upon further inspection I discovered an area at the end of the lower outer slide that obviously had a very major repair and not too neatly done. Furthermore the slide has a number of other dents on the upper outer slide.

1. My question-I feel that the shop selling this instrument should have revealed this damage to me as a potential buyer. Also I think this past significant damage should bring the asking price down

The horn is a silver plated 88h new edition with the newer style trigger with mechanical linkage and the larger rotor. The bell appears to be in perfect shape. The slide with lubricant is 7-8. They are asking $2500. Thanks for your opinions.
Mark Narins

[Burgerbob]

That's much too high a price for the horn in any case.

[Bach5G]

A new slide should be a 10.

[DCIsky]

That condition, from a repair shop???

[officermayo]

That's much too high a price for the horn in any case.

That would depend on which case we're talkin' about.

[JohnL]

That condition, from a repair shop???

Ah, the key word in this case is "consignment". The shop isn't going to fix the slide unless the seller pays for it.

The ethics of consignment sales are murky. What obligation does the shop have to the seller (keeping in mind that the seller, not the buyer, is their customer in this case)? What obligation does the shop have to the buyer?

[dwcarder]

I would report back to them exactly the issues you found, and let them have the opportunity to address it with the seller. How they handle that will tell you a lot.

Price-wise, they may fully intend to negotiate but the seller may not. Provide a realistic counter offer for them to meet, and just be prepared to walk away to find something else if it doesn't work out.

[JohnL]

One more thing. If I were in this situation, I'd walk away. Poorly done repairs are a red flag the size of a king size bed sheet.

[JTeagarden]

Not a big fan of horns with lots of mechanical repairs that may or may not be fixable without some major surgery and/or replacement of parts.

I would tell the music shop you would reconsider the horn after it has been repaired, and the seller can decide if he or she wants to do it.

There are so few moving parts on a trombone: always check the slide before buying if you can, or make sure the price you pay takes into account what you might be on the hook for to make the horn usable.

The price seems way out of whack for what it is, I'd think $1,200 - $1,500 is more like it.

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, walk away. That's probably too much money. The shop isn't required to recite the history of the horn, because they may not know it. If you don't like it, walk away. The good news if you buy it is that there are lots of repair/replacement parts for a horn like that. Alternatively you could make them an offer, subtracting out whatever you think it would cost you to fix it to your satisfaction.

[MiBrassFs]

Make an offer, if you like the rest of the deal.

Consignment instrument prices aren’t always set by the shop. Owner/seller may be fishing. Don’t bite at their price.

Repairs aren’t free. Owner/seller may have wanted to sell “as is” without repairing. “As is” sales may require work. Work needed is a starting point for negotiation.

If the owner/seller or shop takes the position of “no negotiation” on price and you think the price is inappropriate, return the instrument and walk away.

[pfrancis]

That condition, from a repair shop???

Ah, the key word in this case is "consignment". The shop isn't going to fix the slide unless the seller pays for it.

The ethics of consignment sales are murky. What obligation does the shop have to the seller (keeping in mind that the seller, not the buyer, is their customer in this case)? What obligation does the shop have to the buyer?

TLDR - Sounds like a bad buy, and maybe the establishment should revisit its prerequisites for consigned instruments.

Ethics of consignment (with regard to repair) are only murky if the establishment doesn’t have a standard minimum quality or condition for the instruments they are selling. Reputable shops/stores take care to be sure that the instruments for sale are in at least proper playing condition. Refusing to help sell an instrument on consignment is also the prerogative of the establishment as they are a private entity.

That's much too high a price for the horn in any case.

Personally I happen to agree with Aidan: a Conn 88H of ordinary provenance (including ordinary condition vintage horns) is overpriced anywhere north of $2000.

[MStarke]

Aside from your specific case some thoughts.

Consignment sales are tricky. The original owner may have an expectation that doesn't fit to the actual market. However the shop/intermediary should better make them aware and maybe even refuse taking the instrument on consignment.

I have had one or two cases where I bought a very nice instrument quite cheap from a person who didn't really know what it was worth. For these specific people I did maybe feel a little bit sorry. However I don't think these people really suffered from that little loss. On the other hand it can always happen that you buy an instrument unseen and actually pay too much because the seller unknowingly described it incorrectly. Actually I have once bought an instrument from a well-known trombonechat member that definitely did not meet the description. That person absolutely was not willing to re-negotiate. So in the grand scheme it is sort of okay I guess. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

When I am selling an instrument myself I am trying to give the most realistic and honest picture and description of an instrument.
A) Because this is a small world and I generally do not want to trick people in this case and
B) Because I am actually capable of describing an instrument correctly. Many sellers are not.

[WGWTR180]

Firstly I examine an instrument when I first see it and check it for visible damage. Sounds like this type of damage you are speaking of should be obvious. The dents on the outer slide are also problematic. If the slide is only 7/8 out of 10 and the seller wants that much I would walk away and look elsewhere. I'm guessing that this shop is not a repair shop? Or is it? Even then you'd need a better idea of what the slide would cost to be fixed properly before you make any decision. In the end I would still walk away.