Trombone - Bb treble or C Bass??

ttf_robbo · Post by **ttf_robbo** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:31 am

Has been an interesting debate on a Facebook page regarding Eupho initially, but involves trombone as well.

The spark started when someone queried why Concert Band scores don't include Bb treble Eupho parts. So now there's a big debate about whether eupho and trombonists should be encouraged (forced) to learn both clefs, or if concert bands should be expected to include "world parts" which include Bb eupho. And what for trombonists? If you learn in a brass band you learn Bb treble, which leaves you ill equipped for most other ensembles. What for the school student that wants to play in a brass band. They all have to play bass trombone parts as they're the only ones in C bass clef.

My interest is as a writer, and also having been brought up in the brass band system. Will be interesting on your thoughts. In Europe the Brass bands are extremely strong, in Australia they're struggling, and in the US I don't think there's much of that going on there is there? And other countries?

The Bb treble system came about so that players in a brass bands could jump from instrument to instrument more easily. (I'm sure others can fill us in better on that one).

It'd never happen, but I'd like to see a universal notation system for lower brass so that there's less obstacles basically. I don't want a young player to shy away from a brass band cause they can't read the music, or vice versa. Maybe if "world parts" were included in brass band packs, in 100 years or so they could have transitioned across. (But..., what for the old existing scores??)

Obviously this will only be academic, but good debate I reckon. (And yes yes, pros need to be able to play tenor and alto, but we're talking the amateur to the most part)

Rob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:54 am

World Parts are in a transposed bass clef. They are extremely confusing since except for a few Richard Strauss pieces nobody uses a transposed bass clef part.

Many of us have to learn tenor clef as part of training, especially on trombone if you want to play in an orchestra. The notes on tenor clef are exactly in the same places as they would be in Bb treble clef so a player familiar with tenor clef can easily read Bb treble clef parts.

At one time the tromobne would read parts for "Bb Tenor" which was a transposing treble clef part exactly like one in Brass Band. There was also a Bb Bass part which was an instrument of the same length and a larger bore size.

Euph players are much more schizophrenic. The ones who moved from trumpet play transposed treble clef. Ones who started on it or moved from trombone or tuba read bass clef. Many are bilingual. I remember laughing at a Euph player who read treble and bass who was fazed by a part written in tenor clef.

I think treble clef (Bb transposed) is common practice as well as non-transposed bass clef for all Concert Band parts.

There are a few Brass Bands in the US, but most of the players I know can read both transposed treble (probably as tenor clef like I do) or bass clef. None of us read "World Parts" in Bb transposed bass clef or Eb transposed bass clef for tuba. I use those parts for fire starter

ttf_ronnies · Post by **ttf_ronnies** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:11 am

I've seen British Brass Band trombone parts in Tenor clef but they tended to be older parts.

I don't think there is really a problem for amateure to learn all four clefs. It's not that bad, and if I can do it anyone can !!!!

As bass trombone in a local band in Scotland I often had to read bass clef, Bb treble (tenor trombone parts) and also Eb treble (if I had to play an Eb bass part)

Ronnie

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:28 pm

Quote from: robbo on Yesterday at 06:31 AMThe Bb treble system came about so that players in a brass bands could jump from instrument to instrument more easily. (I'm sure others can fill us in better on that one).

It'd never happen, but I'd like to see a universal notation system for lower brass so that there's less obstacles basically. I don't want a young player to shy away from a brass band cause they can't read the music, or vice versa. Maybe if "world parts" were included in brass band packs, in 100 years or so they could have transitioned across. (But..., what for the old existing scores??)

Rob

This topic comes up from time to time. A few clarifications for you:

Brass band music is treble clef and this is true for both Eb and Bb instruments. Cornets, the flugel horn, tenor trombones and Bb basses read Bb treble clef. Eb soprano, Eb horns and Eb basses read Eb treble clef. Any player of any of the Eb or Bb instruments mentioned can move to any instruments and read the music. The one exception is the bass trombone which is in bass clef because the original instrument was in G and the transposition would apppear to be very difficult.

Bb treble clef for the trombones is the same as tenor clef, adding 2 flats. It is fairly easy for a classically trained player to play brass band music.

Concert band music, at least in Canada, used to include the euphonium parts in both Bb treble clef and in C bass clef. My experience is that North American band euphonium players would prefer bass clef and UK or Salvation Army players would read the treble clef parts.

Just once we found a euphonium part in Bb bass clef for a newer piece. Suffice to say, it didn't work. I would say that it was a publisher's error.

"World parts" sound good, but in other things we have people that drive on the other side of the road, and use either the American/UK or the metric system. Good luck getting everyone to agree.

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Quote from: robbo on Yesterday at 06:31 AM So now there's a big debate about whether eupho and trombonists should be encouraged (forced) to learn both clefs, or if concert bands should be expected to include "world parts" which include Bb eupho.
I think the debate should be more around whether music publishers (band music and orchestral music) should include trombone, tuba and euphonium parts in all commonly-read clefs. With computer-based software notation, I imagine producing a part in a different clef should only require a click or two so the marginal cost of doing this is close to zero.

This would enable all groups to draw from a larger pool of players.

Dave

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:34 pm

Firstly, I don't know about brass bands "struggling" in Australia. It is quite popular and the top bands play at quite a high standard. I don't think any Australian bands would be beating dyke or Corey in a contest but they are not terrible

I played in a competitive band which Brett Baker used as his backing ensemble on one of his CD's only a small fee years ago!

That aside, yeah I think as a trombone player or eupho player you need to learn your clefs. Even at amateur level it's not really very hard to do. When I played eupho as a young teenager, I played 2nd in a brass band to an older student who was very comfortable with Bb treble. Just playing alongside him whilst using my ears helped me learn Bb treble quite quickly. A couple of rehearsals with a bit of practice in between is all it takes... I don't see any need for standardised notation.

ttf_11914227 · Post by **ttf_11914227** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:51 pm

As someone in a high school concert band, the conductor's scores don't include a treble part for baritone/euphonium, generally only bass clef. But if you look at the instrumentation list, you'll see it says 2 on treble and 2 on bass. As far as I know the treble clef parts aren't world parts, just other parts. That's in my experience, anyway.

For the idea of learning just one or more clefs, I agree that a universal clef system would be useful, but unrealistic. As a bass trombone player who came from tuba, I'm biased to bass clef, but I am in the ending stages of learning tenor clef (and by extension, Bb treble) I personally believe that euph and trombone players should be comfortable in bass clef, Bb treble, and tenor clef.

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:02 pm

I find reading Bb treble easy until it starts getting below the staff, then I have to start thinking about it and counting ledger lines. Tenor clef rarely goes below the staff.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:11 pm

Quote from: 11914227 on Yesterday at 05:51 PM... I personally believe that euph and trombone players should be comfortable in bass clef, Bb treble, and tenor clef.

For trombone players, add alto clef. Shows up a lot in orchestral parts. Don't see much of it for Euph parts, though

You should also be able to read non-transposing treble clef. And figuring from context whether it is Great Staff or not (the latter is normally played an octave down:

is

)

ttf_robbo · Post by **ttf_robbo** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:41 am

I guess my consideration is in the school system. Should students be expected to learn multiple clefs when there's so much else to work on? Sure they should for the promising ones, but it's getting harder to have interested and dedicated students. I think removing obstacles is a good thing. Trumpeters in high schools certainly aren't expected to transpose as required for orchestral playing. They can have a great life as a trumpeter without ever having to confront it.

Remember that this discussion stemmed from brass band players who could only read Bb treble having to then play C bass clef for concert bands (let alone big bands etc). The concert bands are now calling for Bb treble parts in their scores to accommodate these players. I just feel (for argument sake only) that the time of the treble clef is done.

As far as the tenor/alto clef goes, I feel that the average trombonist can be pretty active (at an amateur level) from low F in the bass clef to F-A above the stave. You shouldn't have to learn a different clef to be able to deal with that yeah?

Enjoying the comments,

Rob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:05 am

American kids don't usually have to deal with transposing treble clef on trombone. If they play in High School orchestra they will need to deal with tenor and sometimes alto clef. Also, many solos for Solo and Ensemble are written in tenor clef. But some genres of trombone music never stray from bass clef: Big Band. Even if you need 6 or 7 ledger lines to write the note

Kids never start on Euph. Generally they move over from trumpet, trombone, or tuba. Trombone and tuba players are comfortable with bass clef in C. Trumpet players are familiar with Bb transposed treble clef. This is what creates the schizophrenia in Euph circles. I don't think there is a solution for this.

ttf_Ted · Post by **ttf_Ted** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:17 am

I play in a wind band in the Netherlands.

Often Euphs play treble Bb, Basses Bass Bb, Trombones Bass C.

However, most other scores include parts as well. Euph alwyas comes with parts in Bass C and Treble Bb. Basses in Bb/C/Eb/(F) in both clefs. En trombones Bass C, Treble Bb, and sometimes Treble C.

And the guy who distributes has no idea. Like the time he said: "There are no trombone parts for this piece, maybe you can play this 'Posaune in Ut part'?"

ttf_Ted · Post by **ttf_Ted** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:17 am

I play in a wind band in the Netherlands.

Often Euphs play treble Bb, Basses Bass Bb, Trombones Bass C.

However, most other scores include parts as well. Euph alwyas comes with parts in Bass C and Treble Bb. Basses in Bb/C/Eb/(F) in both clefs. En trombones Bass C, Treble Bb, and sometimes Treble C.

And the guy who distributes has no idea. Like the time he said: "There are no trombone parts for this piece, maybe you can play this 'Posaune in Ut part'?"