So similar to the question earlier in this section I too have a question about a Wagner piece on alto. Die Meistersinger. My part is writtin in alto clef and says alto trombone, but I was under the assumption that Wagner specifically wrote for two "tenor-bass" and a bass. What gives?
Wagner + Alto?
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ttf_FPCSoloist
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ttf_BGuttman
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Wagner + Alto?
Alto Trombone usually is meant "High Trombone". Wagner was not defining an instrument here.
You may discover that the part lays well on a tenor. That's what it was written for.
You may discover that the part lays well on a tenor. That's what it was written for.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Wagner + Alto?
Wagner did not write alto trombone parts.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Wagner + Alto?
Another thing I should point out is that there is a convention among European publishers to name the high trombone Alto and put it in alto clef. The middle trombone is called Tenor and is in tenor clef. The low trombone is called Basso and is in bass clef. Of course there are some other anomalities: Dvorak symphonies have both tenor trombone parts written in alto clef, while some Russian music has all 3 trombone parts written in alto clef (with LOTS of ledger lines down for the bass trombone!).
The use of alto trombone had pretty much evaporated during the 19th century and only a few 20th century parts actually require one. With the renewed interest in the alto trombone over the past 20 years maybe more alto trombone parts will be written.
The use of alto trombone had pretty much evaporated during the 19th century and only a few 20th century parts actually require one. With the renewed interest in the alto trombone over the past 20 years maybe more alto trombone parts will be written.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Wagner + Alto?
It's a rabbit hole if you want to get into playing music on the correct instruments. Wagner definitely did not want alto trombone in his music. Many romantic composers did. The famous "on no accounts a tenor trombone, but a genuine little alto trombone" quote from Brahms (I think ?) comes to mind. But even the small Bach alto would have been the same bore size or larger than most tenor trombones of the day, so do you use it? A Conn 36H would have been a monster.
And if you go further down this hole, you need to realize that many composers in the 19th century would have expected a valve trombone section, or sometimes a long G Bass, or all tenors with F attachment in a German style, and maybe even an Eb valve alto. It's better to pick an instrument that works with the brass section, and the orchestra as a whole, since it's likely that the entire orchestra is already completely different than what the composer would have had access to, and your job is only to make your director's vision and interpretation of the score come true.
And if you go further down this hole, you need to realize that many composers in the 19th century would have expected a valve trombone section, or sometimes a long G Bass, or all tenors with F attachment in a German style, and maybe even an Eb valve alto. It's better to pick an instrument that works with the brass section, and the orchestra as a whole, since it's likely that the entire orchestra is already completely different than what the composer would have had access to, and your job is only to make your director's vision and interpretation of the score come true.
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ttf_Posaunus
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Wagner + Alto?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 13, 2017, 10:21AMIt's better to pick an instrument that works with the brass section, and the orchestra as a whole, since it's likely that the entire orchestra is already completely different than what the composer would have had access to, and your job is only to make your director's vision and interpretation of the score come true.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Wagner + Alto?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 13, 2017, 10:21AMIt's a rabbit hole if you want to get into playing music on the correct instruments. Wagner definitely did not want alto trombone in his music. Many romantic composers did. The famous "on no accounts a tenor trombone, but a genuine little alto trombone" quote from Brahms (I think ?) comes to mind. But even the small Bach alto would have been the same bore size or larger than most tenor trombones of the day, so do you use it? A Conn 36H would have been a monster.
And if you go further down this hole, you need to realize that many composers in the 19th century would have expected a valve trombone section, or sometimes a long G Bass, or all tenors with F attachment in a German style, and maybe even an Eb valve alto. It's better to pick an instrument that works with the brass section, and the orchestra as a whole, since it's likely that the entire orchestra is already completely different than what the composer would have had access to, and your job is only to make your director's vision and interpretation of the score come true.
Yup. Harrison is right. It's all good to ask yourself the question what was it written for, but in the end the answer is almost always an instrument that is very different from anything you have access to. And the same applies to the rest of the orchestra. So it's kind of a moot point when dealing with modern instruments.
However, I would point out that a Bach alto is probably not larger than the trombones Brahms knew. Romantic German trombones werel fairly large - especially the bell. The German trombones made today are extremely different in design than mid-19th century ones. Harrison's statement would however probably apply to Berlioz, who has a similar quote about the alto, and definitely anything before 1835 or so. (Beethoven'trombones would have been tiny, not very different from sackbuts in fact)
Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 13, 2017, 10:06AMAnother thing I should point out is that there is a convention among European publishers to name the high trombone Alto and put it in alto clef. The middle trombone is called Tenor and is in tenor clef. The low trombone is called Basso and is in bass clef.
Yup, more specifically, Germanic publishers.
And if you go further down this hole, you need to realize that many composers in the 19th century would have expected a valve trombone section, or sometimes a long G Bass, or all tenors with F attachment in a German style, and maybe even an Eb valve alto. It's better to pick an instrument that works with the brass section, and the orchestra as a whole, since it's likely that the entire orchestra is already completely different than what the composer would have had access to, and your job is only to make your director's vision and interpretation of the score come true.
Yup. Harrison is right. It's all good to ask yourself the question what was it written for, but in the end the answer is almost always an instrument that is very different from anything you have access to. And the same applies to the rest of the orchestra. So it's kind of a moot point when dealing with modern instruments.
However, I would point out that a Bach alto is probably not larger than the trombones Brahms knew. Romantic German trombones werel fairly large - especially the bell. The German trombones made today are extremely different in design than mid-19th century ones. Harrison's statement would however probably apply to Berlioz, who has a similar quote about the alto, and definitely anything before 1835 or so. (Beethoven'trombones would have been tiny, not very different from sackbuts in fact)
Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 13, 2017, 10:06AMAnother thing I should point out is that there is a convention among European publishers to name the high trombone Alto and put it in alto clef. The middle trombone is called Tenor and is in tenor clef. The low trombone is called Basso and is in bass clef.
Yup, more specifically, Germanic publishers.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Wagner + Alto?
Jay Friedman:To Alt or Not to Alt?
QuoteWagner was the first major composer to indicate a preference for tenor trombone on the 1st trombone part starting with Tannhauser. This coincided with the development of the modern tenor trombone which featured a larger bell and bore. In the list of instrumentation of Tristan and Isolde, Wagner says; "the first two trombones are understood throughout to be so-called tenor-bass trombones (thus no alto trombone is to be used;) the third trombone, in any case, is to be played by a real bass trombone."
However, that quote suggests altos were common enough in Wagner's time that he felt he needed to explicitly state what he wanted.
QuoteWagner was the first major composer to indicate a preference for tenor trombone on the 1st trombone part starting with Tannhauser. This coincided with the development of the modern tenor trombone which featured a larger bell and bore. In the list of instrumentation of Tristan and Isolde, Wagner says; "the first two trombones are understood throughout to be so-called tenor-bass trombones (thus no alto trombone is to be used;) the third trombone, in any case, is to be played by a real bass trombone."
However, that quote suggests altos were common enough in Wagner's time that he felt he needed to explicitly state what he wanted.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Wagner + Alto?
Jay Friedman:To Alt or Not to Alt?
QuoteWagner was the first major composer to indicate a preference for tenor trombone on the 1st trombone part starting with Tannhauser. This coincided with the development of the modern tenor trombone which featured a larger bell and bore. In the list of instrumentation of Tristan and Isolde, Wagner says; "the first two trombones are understood throughout to be so-called tenor-bass trombones (thus no alto trombone is to be used;) the third trombone, in any case, is to be played by a real bass trombone."
However, that quote suggests altos were common enough in Wagner's time that he felt he needed to explicitly state what he wanted.
QuoteWagner was the first major composer to indicate a preference for tenor trombone on the 1st trombone part starting with Tannhauser. This coincided with the development of the modern tenor trombone which featured a larger bell and bore. In the list of instrumentation of Tristan and Isolde, Wagner says; "the first two trombones are understood throughout to be so-called tenor-bass trombones (thus no alto trombone is to be used;) the third trombone, in any case, is to be played by a real bass trombone."
However, that quote suggests altos were common enough in Wagner's time that he felt he needed to explicitly state what he wanted.