How far can you get alone?

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:09 pm

This is a big topic, and obviously it greatly from player to player based on natural musicality and instinct, innate attention to detail, as well uncontrollable factors like amount of available time, life issues etc.

But I'm curious as to what you guys who are teachers think: how far (how skilled) can a player get just from practicing at home? at what point does a player really almost *need* a teacher?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Some of the very best players have been self-taught, or at least they claim to be.

However, I started with private lessons from the very beginning, and I do think that's the best way.

As you say it really depends on the person. Especially "innate attention to detail."

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:48 pm

Im not sure, but I think you need other people to play with and listen to almost as much as a teacher (if not more, depending on where you are in the journey). I think you can become a great technician by yourself, but not a great musician. I believe music is truly a collaboration between players, students, teachers, listeners, and composers.

ttf_William Lang · Post by **ttf_William Lang** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:55 pm

you can get quite far, but it's much harder.

I've had basically 2.5 years of lessons in my life, all after high school. lucky enough to go to a good musical high school though. I always wonder in the back of my head what if I had had a good teacher or mentor though, even though my professional life has turned out ok.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:55 am

You don't just need a teacher, you need the right one, and one who understands the responsibilities of setting the student off on the right path. I've had three teachers, 2 were established UK symphony players, and one from a UK army service band. They all missed my embouchure problem, one which hindered me right through my playing life, I sorted it out myself about 15 years ago.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:56 am

At the very highest levels at some point, one can and must be self guided. After all, it's you who put the horn to your face.

Having said that, I would not have even had the chance to get to that point without years of expert instruction and practicing what I was being taught.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:33 am

Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent.

If you start incorrectly, it takes decades to undo the lost time. Great lessons at the beginning are the best. Even the best teachers have limitations. Sometimes you even have to switch to break the barriers of your mind.

The best lesson I ever got online? One of Charlie Parker's old band mates, road room mates, from his beginnings on the road was interviewed at an elderly age.
What did Charlie Parker's room mate say about life on the road with Charlie Parker, when Charlie was not famous yet?: " Charlie? You never heard a guy practice that slowly in your life!".

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:13 am

When the pupil is ready to learn, a teacher will appear.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:15 am

I think this question also depends where you want to go. Somehow if you go into the jazz area you have to go into that environment. Same as symphony area. You have to be in that environment to understand how things work. We are all different but we all need a clear goal to work against. Listening, playing with good players, take lessons with people that can bring you closer to your goal. And of course practice and work the right way for you. There is many aspects involved on the road. The right teacher and school can make you understand and work more right and efficient.

Leif

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:31 am

Other than piano lessons starting at age 8 I didn't have much in the way of private training until I got into an Army reserve band and started taking some private lessons. I participated in group lesson on Euphonium, and with a little help from my trumpet playing step father got fairly good on Euphonium. I rented a trombone from the school the summer between middle school and high school I taught myself the slide by equating valve combinations on the Euph to slide positions on Trombone. So my freshmen year of high school I made stage band. Being self taught has a lot of disadvantages, and there were things that I had to learn to do correctly with the slide that only a teacher can impart. I actually think getting lessons from a competent teacher is the most helpful at the early stages to avoid developing bad habits.

ttf_Nanook · Post by **ttf_Nanook** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:56 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 11, 2017, 04:33AMPractice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent.

Living in a rural area it took me a year to find an instructor...During that time I developed some poor habits, that continue to haunt me to this day.....

Nanook

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:07 am

I think if you were locked in a room with only recordings and no visuals, even with unlimited practice you wouldn't get far. With videos, you might progress a little further, but you'd still be limited by your speakers.

You can't know what a fortissimo is until you're sitting in a room with someone who can demonstrate a fortissimo.

You might not need formal lessons very much if you are surrounded by really good live music, especially the kind of music you want to play. That alone is worth a lot of lessons.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:31 am

The paradox is that many get nowhere WITH teachers.

I made just basic progress for my first four or five years. In retrospect I realize that my teachers weren't really teaching, they were monitoring my progress against low public school expectations.

Teaching well is a really tricky thing. My assessment is that most people in teaching should not be.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:38 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 11, 2017, 04:33AMPractice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent.

If you start incorrectly, it takes decades to undo the lost time. Great lessons at the beginning are the best. Even the best teachers have limitations. Sometimes you even have to switch to break the barriers of your mind.

The best lesson I ever got online? One of Charlie Parker's old band mates, road room mates, from his beginnings on the road was interviewed at an elderly age.
What did Charlie Parker's room mate say about life on the road with Charlie Parker, when Charlie was not famous yet?: " Charlie? You never heard a guy practice that slowly in your life!".

Agreed! Had my first four years with a teacher who could not play trombone. He was probably self taught on his instruments. After that I had an hungarian teacher who made me change my full-hand grip on the slide to a looser grip and to practice a lot but as said; practice wrong permanents wrong so most from those years had to be relearned. At the same time I had a trumpet teacher for one year who put the Arban's etudes on my music stand and I had to compete with him on the lessons. I learned to read music but the sound and flex and range was bad. The only thing I learned that was worth learning those first four/five years was to read music and to transpose a lot. All teachers up until now had missed my smile embouchure. Then I got a good teacher who helped me take the step to change the way I produced my sound. Everything was then changed in time. I had to re-learn how to both inhale and exhale, since I had been taught that the stomach should be "tense". One teacher put his fist I'm my stomach and had me push and said this was how to do it. I had to relearn all that as well as a complete change of embouchure. After this I managed to be accepted at the music college and from there articulation, range and quality of tone became better in small steps. I still have lots of things to improve. Things that remind me of where I started. I think it is just until resently I can play something and just think of the music and let it happen.

The right teacher must come along and the student needs to be ready. When you have all in place you need to play with better players. From that point you can observe and improve without a teacher, but it doesn't hurt to get advice from someone you trust. You can be a student all your life if you are that kind of a person.

One thing my first teacher taught me was that music was fun. Easily said than done. There is a balance when teaching kids. It must be fun or they quit and play ice-hockey or soccer instead. If you say they do it wrong then they quit. You need to fool them so they learn without thinking of it as hard and wrong. A professonal football player or hockey player gives money and respect. The real raw models are in sports today, and the whole family might watch those athlets on tv daily and discuss how much their value is. Who bought who for what money? Money and public exposure make sports much more important than music. How important is music? It is not easy to compete with sports and the ones who not succeed in sports might choose computers instead. It is more difficult to be a teacher of trombone today. It was easier when I was a teacher in the 80-ies and 90-ies. It must be fun in the competition and still technique needs to be corrected. If you want to hear a trombone you could just buy a record with Christian Lindberg. Much faster and a guaranteed good result. I've actually heard that said from a non musician. Students with time and patience to learn are probably more rare to find today. You can toss them a trombone or you can toss them a ball. Will they learn how to successfully kick a goal or will they learn how to successfully play a high c without a teacher?

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:55 am

It depends.

But there is one thing I believe; a great player/instructor can fast-track a student.

...Geezer

ttf_MichaelWindhoek · Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:15 am

Trombone players are quite common around here, but Trombone teachers are rare or they too are limited to basics. Playing in a community band gets you learn for those ahead. You get to play a lot in church, funerals and players from all over the country. However when brass bands meet conductors changes and many seemingly expect similar standards. Not sure if it is realistic to expect those with less than a year playing to be similar to those 3 years and more. I would agree with some views above that this could create impatience or even rejection for the player avoiding playing in community bands by so doing loosing out on possible learning. I learn mostly on my own, but depend largely on the Internet/YouTube videos of established players. I think if there were books and CDs available it would help as one would seek to imitate. Using play back with sheet music online is also not so reliable as there could be a missmatch with the audio. Some trombonist simply producers videos of themselves playing, but had they availed music of their seeming arrangements it could help a lot. In short teachers can be good, but I think a bit of patience could keep especially hobby students interested.

ttf_Ted · Post by **ttf_Ted** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:59 pm

I started on Trumpet, and my third teacher found out I was playing completely wrong! I didn't vibrate the lips to make a sound, I vibrated my tongue against my upper lip..

Anyhow, I still recommend to start with a teacher, a good one!

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:55 am

Quote from: Ted on Jan 07, 2018, 11:59PMI started on Trumpet, and my third teacher found out I was playing completely wrong! I didn't vibrate the lips to make a sound, I vibrated my tongue against my upper lip..

Anyhow, I still recommend to start with a teacher, a good one!

I had a student who came to the first lesson and sang in the trumpet. I wonder how long that had gone if I had not told her to buzz her lips.

/Tom

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:52 am

Learning an instrument is subject to large amounts of luck both in terms of instruction and environment.
It is possible to be entirely self taught and end up a great player. The most important lesson of my life was delivered by such a person.
Most people, however, need instruction to proceed at a decent pace. Some people get great instruction, some get good instruction and some get poor instruction.... luck.
One thing all people need, taught or self taught, is a playing environment in which to gain musical contact, context and concept. Again, some do better than others in this respect.... luck.
A lot of what happens in anyone's life is down to luck, or chance if you prefer.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:47 am

Quote from: blast on Jan 08, 2018, 01:52AMLearning an instrument is subject to large amounts of luck both in terms of instruction and environment.
It is possible to be entirely self taught and end up a great player. The most important lesson of my life was delivered by such a person.
Most people, however, need instruction to proceed at a decent pace. Some people get great instruction, some get good instruction and some get poor instruction.... luck.
One thing all people need, taught or self taught, is a playing environment in which to gain musical contact, context and concept. Again, some do better than others in this respect.... luck.
A lot of what happens in anyone's life is down to luck, or chance if you prefer.

Chris Stearn

Lol. I happen to be one of those pesky people who believe we can make our own luck; good or bad. That believe puts me in the driver's seat.

...Geezer

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:43 pm

Quote from: Ted on Jan 07, 2018, 11:59PMI started on Trumpet, and my third teacher found out I was playing completely wrong! I didn't vibrate the lips to make a sound, I vibrated my tongue against my upper lip..

Anyhow, I still recommend to start with a teacher, a good one!

Quote from: watermailonman on Jan 08, 2018, 12:55AMI had a student who came to the first lesson and sang in the trumpet. I wonder how long that had gone if I had not told her to buzz her lips.

/Tom

THESE are some EYE-POPPING anecdotes!!!

Ted... That's interesting!

Tom... did she have good tone that way?

But in all seriousness, I'm sure you taught her how to "play"? What has she achieved as a player since then?

I guess that's a deep trap to fall into WITHOUT a teacher - not just purely learning things in a way that inefficient for playing, but straight-up learning things WRONG - in a way so wrong that one never learns anything about how to play properly. In my mind, in this day and age there's enough information online in videos, audio, photo AND text for the absolute and complete beginner to get an understanding of what the conventional ways to play instruments are, and maybe even avoid learning too many technique mistake that need to be hammered out by teachers later. I can imagine it wouldn't have been so easy 40 years ago without such readily-available resources.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:51 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 08, 2018, 01:43PMTHESE are some EYE-POPPING anecdotes!!!

Ted... That's interesting!

Tom... did she have good tone that way?

But in all seriousness, I'm sure you taught her how to "play"? What has she achieved as a player since then?

I guess that's a deep trap to fall into WITHOUT a teacher - not just purely learning things in a way that inefficient for playing, but straight-up learning things WRONG - in a way so wrong that one never learns anything about how to play properly. In my mind, in this day and age there's enough information online in videos, audio, photo AND text for the absolute and complete beginner to get an understanding of what the conventional ways to play instruments are, and maybe even avoid learning too many technique mistake that need to be hammered out by teachers later. I can imagine it wouldn't have been so easy 40 years ago without such readily-available resources.

I used to use that very same argument...

...Geezer

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:32 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 08, 2018, 01:43PMTom... did she have good tone that way?

No

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 08, 2018, 01:43PMBut in all seriousness, I'm sure you taught her how to "play"? What has she achieved as a player since then?

Yes, I taught her how to play, or at least I know I managed to explain how to produce the sound. I remember we buzzed the lips but then she still did it wrong when doing it on the trumpet. We did solve that problem the first lesson, but I had to explain how to do it more than once. I don't know what become of her because this was long ago. I had my last student 18 years from now. The truth is most students in the public music school quit and that goes for all instruments. Some of the pupils quit early within a year (a few), a lot of them (most) quit in their teens when boys/girls become more interesting than trumpet or they choose sports instead, some (a few) continue all the way until they are too old for the public music school (21 years). Some of them continue on their own after this. Only one I started (that I know of) has become a professional player, and he plays trumpet (not my fault

).

/Tom

ttf_zxxfgg · Post by **ttf_zxxfgg** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 08, 2018, 01:43PMIn my mind, in this day and age there's enough information online in videos, audio, photo AND text for the absolute and complete beginner to get an understanding of what the conventional ways to play instruments are, and maybe even avoid learning too many technique mistake that need to be hammered out by teachers later. I can imagine it wouldn't have been so easy 40 years ago without such readily-available resources.
Very true, tbone forum being living proof of that...

But technical information on how to achieve at a really high level in music isn't what those young players want starting out... not trying to denigrate them, that's just how most people are when they begin a skill. We just want to figure out how to have some fun.

With a relevant source of inspiration (be it live music, instructor demos/conversations, youtube, etc) young players may then really want to read the Farkas book etc.!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:49 am

All the youtube and forums in the world are no substitute for one-to-one sessions with an expert.

Every minute of every lesson should be individually focussed on the student and that will be priceless.

You get no idea of what it would be like to have lessons with me by looking at my forum posts. Teaching is complex and plastic.

A very few people can make it by themselves... most don't.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:26 pm

Quote from: blast on Jan 10, 2018, 01:49AMAll the youtube and forums in the world are no substitute for one-to-one sessions with an expert.

Every minute of every lesson should be individually focussed on the student and that will be priceless.

You get no idea of what it would be like to have lessons with me by looking at my forum posts. Teaching is complex and plastic.

A very few people can make it by themselves... most don't.

Chris Stearn
I agree a competent teacher can do so much more than any video, and they can tailor the lesson to your needs, work on your weaknesses, etc. It's not impossible to learn to plan an instrument on your own, but you'll get there so much faster and easier with good instruction. I was late to taking private brass instrument lessons, and I improved so much more with an instructor than I ever did without one.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:14 pm

You will never understand what a FFF from Norman Bolter is like by watching a video.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jan 11, 2018, 06:14PMYou will never understand what a FFF from Norman Bolter is like by watching a video.

Fair point.

My post was mostly in relation to the newer player who just wants to play for their own enjoyment.

Hopefully someone who really puts in the time will also attend concerts and HEAR what it's like live - and eventually be spurred on to take lessons to REALLY begin to improve with focused, detailed work on things that CAN'T be learned online.

But for the amateur player just playing for friends at home, with no intention to even ever play with other live, there is certainly enough information to get THAT person skilled enough to have fun with the right practice.

But that's just me!!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:02 pm

I tried to teach myself viola. I managed to kvetch out a few notes, but then I took a couple of lessons. Taught me how to hold the bow. How to set up and hold the instrument. And incidentally, play a few tunes (like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star). Those three lessons took me farther than a month of aimless practicing.

At some point I probably want to get back to it, since no motter how bad a viola player you are you can still get a chair in a community orchestra. Something to do when my chops give up.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:17 pm

Quote from: blast on Jan 10, 2018, 01:49AMAll the youtube and forums in the world are no substitute for one-to-one sessions with an expert.

Every minute of every lesson should be individually focussed on the student and that will be priceless.

You get no idea of what it would be like to have lessons with me by looking at my forum posts. Teaching is complex and plastic.

A very few people can make it by themselves... most don't.

Chris Stearn

I still take lessons twice a month. I have been doing this for 15 plus years, 4 times a month in the early years. We dont do a lot verbal explanations anymore. I will play something and then we usually trade phrases; he plays the phrase then I play the phrase Like he did. Or we spend the time playing my lesson material in unison. I cant get that type of instruction from the web.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:12 pm

There are professionals who claim they are self taught so if they are not lying it is possible, but I think you need a fair amount of luck to succed. I had a teacher who did not know how to play which led to four years of not experiencing what a trombone sound is. At fourteen I heard another student who became a friend and that was an eye (ear) opener. My first four years could have been taught by book when it comes to technique.

What had happened if I had never met a teacher who could show ne how to do it?

First I had stayed ignorant. Second I would probably think I was doing allright (because ignorant). Somewhere along the road I had probably quit when realising...

/Tom

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:36 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Jan 11, 2018, 11:12PMThere are professionals who claim they are self taught so if they are not lying it is possible, but I think you need a fair amount of luck to succed.

Which professionals claim to be self taught? I have never heard of a professional trombone player who never had a trombone lesson at any point.... I suppose its possible but I am hugely skeptical.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:51 pm

I doubt you will find ANY classical player who is self-taught.

Some of the Jazz and Rock players are self-taught, but in many cases we don't ask the same of them. For jazz and rock players the inventiveness is more important than the technical.

Then again, Jimmy Pankow was conservatory trained.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 05:36PMWhich professionals claim to be self taught? I have never heard of a professional trombone player who never had a trombone lesson at any point.... I suppose its possible but I am hugely skeptical.

Perhaps think of it statistically. If you have played for twenty years and only ever had one lesson, are you self taught? Having a lesson or three could be thought of as being resourceful, rather than having had instruction. Is gathering resources from this Forum considered to be "instruction"?

We can state we are whatever we want to be and then change our minds as it suits us.

I used to be self-taught.

In the end, no matter how many lessons we may have had, we self-teach. No one can make us play nicely. That is up to us. But a good instructor sure can help.

...Geezer

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:32 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 15, 2018, 05:57PMPerhaps think of it statistically. If you have played for twenty years and only ever had one lesson, are you self taught? Having a lesson or three could be thought of as being resourceful, rather than having had instruction. Is gathering resources from this Forum considered to be "instruction"?

That's what I'm getting at - regular instruction with relatively short time between each lesson. Otherwise, a really constant flow of new information from a working pro who probably did the same thing to become a pro.

That versus a guy who takes 1 lesson a year for 15 years and is a strictly by-ear player, playing with a band and some hole-in-the-wall and being paid to perform. He IS by all means a "professional player" by my definition. Maybe he doesn't play as well as someone we'd consider to play on a professional level - but he's putting food on the table as a pro musician just like a drag racer and a postman are both professional drivers even though one's driving may take a higher level of precision and skill.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:43 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 15, 2018, 05:57PMPerhaps think of it statistically. If you have played for twenty years and only ever had one lesson, are you self taught? Having a lesson or three could be thought of as being resourceful, rather than having had instruction. Is gathering resources from this Forum considered to be "instruction"?

We can state we are whatever we want to be and then change our minds as it suits us.

I used to be self-taught.

In the end, no matter how many lessons we may have had, we self-teach. No one can make us play nicely. That is up to us. But a good instructor sure can help.

...Geezer

Geezer, Tom mentioned there are "professionals who claim to be self taught". I understand what you are saying, but playing trombone for 20 years and being a professional trombone player are very different things.

Whatever you define "instruction" to be, I would be very surprised to hear of any trombone players who have trombone performance as their primary source of income, when they have never been in a room to play with/for an experienced and superior player who can advise them on how to hear their own mistakes.

I suspect Bruce's last comment here is probably correct but I dont know.... im not as familiar with jazz and rock pedagogy. I would be very interested to learn of self taught professional players in any genre though.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:46 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 15, 2018, 06:32PMThat's what I'm getting at - regular instruction with relatively short time between each lesson. Otherwise, a really constant flow of new information from a working pro who probably did the same thing to become a pro.

That versus a guy who takes 1 lesson a year for 15 years and is a strictly by-ear player, playing with a band and some hole-in-the-wall and being paid to perform. He IS by all means a "professional player" by my definition. Maybe he doesn't play as well as someone we'd consider to play on a professional level - but he's putting food on the table as a pro musician just like a drag racer and a postman are both professional drivers even though one's driving may take a higher level of precision and skill.

.......maybe. I have been paid to mow lawns before. Doesnt mean I am a professional gardener.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:15 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 06:46PM.......maybe. I have been paid to mow lawns before. Doesnt mean I am a professional gardener.

BUT If you made a living mowing lawns, even at a subpar level with home lawncare equipment, what then? Are you not doing it professionally? Would that not make you a professional in the technical sense of the word?

And who's to say the the guy I mentioned in the example above DOESN'T play on a "professional level" and just happened to strike that "luck" that Tom mentioned?

ttf_B0B · Post by **ttf_B0B** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:16 pm

I like the qualification of good teacher... kinda highlights issues prevalent in saying you have a teacher and are better off that way. How many have private teachers yet play at a mediocre level? Most that I have heard... including those in college.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Not all of us are going to be professionals. Some of us will struggle to achieve mediocrity and maybe that's good. After all, would you pay money to see someone play trombone when you can play as well as them or better?

ttf_B0B · Post by **ttf_B0B** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:33 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 15, 2018, 07:24PMAfter all, would you pay money to see someone play trombone when you can play as well as them or better?
would and do, yes.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:34 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:15PMBUT If you made a living mowing lawns, even at a subpar level with home lawncare equipment, what then? Are you not doing it professionally? Would that not make you a professional in the technical sense of the word?

And who's to say the the guy I mentioned in the example above DOESN'T play on a "professional level" and just happened to strike that "luck" that Tom mentioned?

Hahaha.... yeah the gardening thing has gone too far now... I think there a parallels but trombone is different. You may very well be correct.... im just not convinced.

Maybe its possible to achieve a professional playing standard having had no lessons on trombone ever.... but its also possible if i pick up a quarter right now and flip it a million times I will get a million heads.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:37 pm

Quote from: B0B on Jan 15, 2018, 07:16PMI like the qualification of good teacher... kinda highlights issues prevalent in saying you have a teacher and are better off that way. How many have private teachers yet play at a mediocre level? Most that I have heard... including those in college.

You can say the same for any teaching context though. How many people did you go to high school with who did averagely on their end of high school exams? Or even badly after 7 or so years of study?
Does that mean they just shouldnt go to school? If the majority are going to turn out ordinary anyway....

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:01 pm

But would you pay to watch someone mow a lawn? Not all professionals are worth our attention.

ttf_B0B · Post by **ttf_B0B** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:48 am

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:37PMYou can say the same for any teaching context though. How many people did you go to high school with who did averagely on their end of high school exams? Or even badly after 7 or so years of study?Yup.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:37PMDoes that mean they just shouldnt go to school? If the majority are going to turn out ordinary anyway....

That's the difference between teaching and training.

Teaching being the introduction of new material or ideas, training being the repetitious practice of an idea or action until it is ingrained. Most of public education, including music classes, is a form of training much more than teaching. Reading... is almost entirely training. Much of math is as well. Even band, students learn to read music and operate their instruments, but the biggest benefit is the constant and regular practice of those concepts until they come easily. The teaching is no more complex than they could easily glean from the internet combined with a beginner book. But without the regular practice behind it, those basic concepts would never take hold.

How far can you get alone? Without a teacher? Well, having seen numerous examples of good and poor players who share the same teachers, the key really isn't the teacher but the student. In the long run, you typically get as far with a teacher as without - the difference being that a teacher may help you get there a bit quicker.

ttf_B0B · Post by **ttf_B0B** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:48 am

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:37PMYou can say the same for any teaching context though. How many people did you go to high school with who did averagely on their end of high school exams? Or even badly after 7 or so years of study?Yup.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:37PMDoes that mean they just shouldnt go to school? If the majority are going to turn out ordinary anyway....

That's the difference between teaching and training.

Teaching being the introduction of new material or ideas, training being the repetitious practice of an idea or action until it is ingrained. Most of public education, including music classes, is a form of training much more than teaching. Reading... is almost entirely training. Much of math is as well. Even band, students learn to read music and operate their instruments, but the biggest benefit is the constant and regular practice of those concepts until they come easily. The teaching is no more complex than they could easily glean from the internet combined with a beginner book. But without the regular practice behind it, those basic concepts would never take hold.

How far can you get alone? Without a teacher? Well, having seen numerous examples of good and poor players who share the same teachers, the key really isn't the teacher but the student. In the long run, you typically get as far with a teacher as without - the difference being that a teacher may help you get there a bit quicker.