Kleinhammer and his Eb tuba mouthpiece

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:25 pm

I've been reading his book, "The Art of Trombone Playing", and on pg 57 he talks about "Bass Trombone Low Register Aids". He cites a few things, two of which he uses - an adjustable cup depth mouthpiece and an Eb tuba mouthpiece. What I am most interested in is the latter.

He mentions that he "keeps an Eb tuba mouthpiece in his case as regular equipment at all times for any 'pedal' tone that some conductor wants 'brought out'". He then shows a passage (from Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, 4th movement) with a pedal Bb to pedal A that starts at ff and crescendos from there. He doesn't expand much on this; does he literally just pop the mouthpiece in for the few bars (or notes) needed? It would seem so as there are plenty of other excerpts from that piece that are in the typical range that would seem exhausting on a larger mouthpiece.

How does this go along with what seems to be most people's thoughts of "sticking" with some set of equipment for a whole piece, or even a whole concerts, etc. In today's climate, would it be less "odd" to swap just a mouthpiece for a few bars, or to pick up a contrabass for those same passages? I feel like there is some stigma around changing just a part of your equipment mid performance, but less so if you use multiple horns.

I, for one, have come across pieces where the "bass trombone" is being requested to play quite low with either some level of facility or loudness that seems better suited on larger equipment (pedal F down to pedal Db) and also in unison with the tenors (up to A above the staff) all in the same piece.

What are people's thoughts around this? I feel like this one, almost innocuous, sentence from Kleinhammer's book could itself be the basis of an entire chapter or even book.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:37 pm

Remember that Kleinhammer is discussing the scene in the 1950s and 1960s. Back when a bass trombone mouthpiece was a 1 1/2 G. Long before our 1G and larger sizes.

What he kept as a "low note" mouthpiece was probably what we'd consider a contrabass mouthpiece.

I'd bet if he were playing now he'd be using (or keeping) something like a 95XL for the low notes.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:49 pm

The story goes that the original Schilke 60 was based on that Eb tuba mouthpiece.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:49 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 23, 2017, 04:37PMRemember that Kleinhammer is discussing the scene in the 1950s and 1960s. Back when a bass trombone mouthpiece was a 1 1/2 G. Long before our 1G and larger sizes.

What he kept as a "low note" mouthpiece was probably what we'd consider a contrabass mouthpiece.

I'd bet if he were playing now he'd be using (or keeping) something like a 95XL for the low notes.

Yeah, I did think of that. However, I believe Eb tuba and CB mouthpieces are fairly interchangeable. I just picked up a Wessex 1CB that's billed as either a small-shank tuba or contrabass m'pc. The rim is 1.18", which is only a hair larger than the 95XL you mention. I wasn't under the impression he was using anything larger than that.

I do also seem to remember Kleinhammer being the one who said that 1-1/2G sizes don't work in the orchestra any more - but I don't know when he said that.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:52 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 23, 2017, 04:49PMThe story goes that the original Schilke 60 was based on that Eb tuba mouthpiece.

Any idea on how that original varies from the 60 of now?

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:59 pm

He was also known to ream out the back-bore on a given mpc to "open" up the lower notes. Supposedly he kept THAT mpc in his pocket as well. Sounds like the man had big pockets!

...Geezer

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:13 pm

Mr. Kleinhammer had further things to say on this subject in the book he co-wrote with Doug Yeo. The answers are there, based on a further 50 years of thought by Mr. Kleinhammer.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:14 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Dec 23, 2017, 04:59PMHe was also known to ream out the back-bore on a given mpc to "open" up the lower notes. Supposedly he kept THAT mpc in his pocket as well. Sounds like the man had big pockets!

...Geezer

He also says the optimal way to find the right combination of cup and backbore is to have your own lathe and blanks that are threaded to work with your rim, and perpetually make tweaks. if I had a lathe, I don't think my family would ever see me outside of my workshop.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:16 pm

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 23, 2017, 05:13PMMr. Kleinhammer had further things to say on this subject in the book he co-wrote with Doug Yeo. The answers are there, based on a further 50 years of thought by Mr. Kleinhammer.

That's "Mastering the Trombone", correct?

I'd love to see the evolution of his thoughts. I think I'll try to pick that book up.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:26 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 23, 2017, 04:49PMThe story goes that the original Schilke 60 was based on that Eb tuba mouthpiece.

That is funny to hear because when I got my Eb tuba I put my Schilke 60 on it, for lack of anything else that worked.

In the Bleak E flat Tuba

ttf_mmclemore · Post by **ttf_mmclemore** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:29 am

I've seen that Eb tuba mouthpiece. I studied with Ed in the early 2000's and one day he showed it to me. He kept it in a drawer in one of the bedrooms of his house in Hayward, WI.
He said that it was the only piece of brass playing equipment he had kept. He then relayed the story of it's use in Berlioz and what not.

Ed only had one goal...that was to serve the best interest of the group that he was playing with, the conductor they were under and the music on the stand.
If he had to stand on his head and play to do that...you can bet that he would have done it.

Ed had a level of passion and integrity that is rarely seen. You could feel it in his presence and hear it in his voice when he spoke. He was truly a great man.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:04 am

Stigmas have a way of mattering a lot less when it's how you make your living.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am

Bravo, Gabe, bravo.

One of the points missed here on TTF is that a lot of the information has been posted about the top .00001% of all trombonists. Not the beginner or common recreational player.Written about trombonists who were at the top of the heap globally. Trombonists who already learned how to play, the hard way, in a time when the way to learn the craft was through practice.

TTF offers a lot of information to players-- young and old-- who want to learn how to avoid practice, and want to avoid practicing 12 hours a day.

Sure, read "The Art of Trombone Playing", from 1961. But don't buy an Eb tuba mouthpiece until you have spent 4 hours a day for a few years working on Mr. Kleinhammer's exercises.

One of the main points written in Mr. Kleinhammer's book is " Human flesh can adapt to anything." But nowhere does it say it can adapt well, nor does it ever say that you can learn how to play a musical instrument using an Eb tuba mouthpiece, unless the instrument is Eb tuba.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:41 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Dec 24, 2017, 06:04AMStigmas have a way of mattering a lot less when it's how you make your living.

This is precisely the kind of thing I was inquisitive about. Thanks for the insight.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:51 am

bonesmarsh,

I actually don't wish I could avoid practice, I do enjoy picking up my horn everyday. What a bland world it would be if a new mouthpiece solved all. What a new Eb tuba mouthpiece does buy you is the chance to get your chops working on that size in preparation for an eminent purchase of a contrabass. It then makes you think about other times you've seen mention of a mouthpiece like that and then engages your mind in inquisitive thought. Without asking questions, we do not grow. Also without practice we do not get better.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:26 am

tbathras, I wasn't referring to you or anyone else on this thread in particular, apologies if this appeared to mean yourself.

Go to any thread about Mount Vernon Bach mouthpieces. See how many players who have never taken a lesson, appear to ask pointed questions about where they can find a Mt Vernon 2G or 1 1/2G. One poster frequently asked questioned about Mt Vernon mouthpieces, and was requested by mods to take lessons before posting further and offering second hand opinions, based on what they had read on TTF.
I fully expect those types of posters, to ask here on this thread about how to find the elusive magic 75 year old Eb tuba mouthpiece with mythic properties, as Mt Vernon mouthpieces are supposed to have.

For that definitive answer I'll offer my own-- the magic mouthpiece is the Wedge 1G. Big as an Eb tuba mouthpiece, just as dangerous in the wrong hands...and impossible to play unless you did the years of hard work beforehand.

As for practice?-- practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent, another thing missed by beginners, and those with credit cards belonging to daddy.

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:32 am

Quote from: mmclemore on Dec 24, 2017, 03:29AMI've seen that Eb tuba mouthpiece. I studied with Ed in the early 2000's and one day he showed it to me. He kept it in a drawer in one of the bedrooms of his house in Hayward, WI.
He said that it was the only piece of brass playing equipment he had kept. He then relayed the story of it's use in Berlioz and what not.

Ed only had one goal...that was to serve the best interest of the group that he was playing with, the conductor they were under and the music on the stand.
If he had to stand on his head and play to do that...you can bet that he would have done it.

Ed had a level of passion and integrity that is rarely seen. You could feel it in his presence and hear it in his voice when he spoke. He was truly a great man.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:34 am

Quote from: tbathras on Dec 24, 2017, 06:51AMbonesmarsh,

I actually don't wish I could avoid practice, I do enjoy picking up my horn everyday. What a bland world it would be if a new mouthpiece solved all. What a new Eb tuba mouthpiece does buy you is the chance to get your chops working on that size in preparation for an eminent purchase of a contrabass. It then makes you think about other times you've seen mention of a mouthpiece like that and then engages your mind in inquisitive thought. Without asking questions, we do not grow. Also without practice we do not get better.

Exactly! I've started in on a 2G - which is HUGE for me on my King 4B/F - in preparation of someday maybe finding a Duo Gravis in good condition at a good price. Also, I believe that practicing on a large (for me) mpc involves more muscle and tissue surface area. After a few days of that and I switch back to my "normal" mpcs, I feel like I could climb Mt. Everest! (For a while - lol)

As far as the 12-hour-a-day concept is concerned, put a check in the box for me to look for & find ways to reduce that down to a measly 4-hours-a-day!

.

I get what Bonesmarch is stating, though.

...Geezer

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:27 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 24, 2017, 07:26AM
For that definitive answer I'll offer my own-- the magic mouthpiece is the Wedge 1G. Big as an Eb tuba mouthpiece, just as dangerous in the wrong hands...and impossible to play unless you did the years of hard work beforehand.

As for practice?-- practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent, another thing missed by beginners, and those with credit cards belonging to daddy.

My apologies, too, if I came off defensive - I was actually agreeing with your statements, with the nuance lost in the digital translation.

And, coincidentally, I have tried the Wedge 1G. It was indeed nice, but at that time it was too much for me to use as a daily driver, so back it went.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:33 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Dec 24, 2017, 07:34AMExactly! I've started in on a 2G - which is HUGE for me on my King 4B/F - in preparation of someday maybe finding a Duo Gravis in good condition at a good price. Also, I believe that practicing on a large (for me) mpc involves more muscle and tissue surface area. After a few days of that and I switch back to my "normal" mpcs, I feel like I could climb Mt. Everest! (For a while - lol)

As far as the 12-hour-a-day concept is concerned, put a check in the box for me to look for & find ways to reduce that down to a measly 4-hours-a-day!

.

I get what Bonesmarch is stating, though.

...Geezer

2G sounds pretty normal to me!

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 am

Yes, tbathras, I agree. I seldom play bass trombone anymore. Just for paid gigs...and those usually end up being covering stupid tuba parts in quintet, or in a huge orchestra doubling all parts from bone 2 or tuba...and competing with mega-amplified electric bass. For most of my bass trombone work I'm using a clip-on mic as well, but choose to play acoustically and blow the sh*t out of it, because the huge amplified choir like it that way, as does the music director.
I do then use the Wedge 1G, small Eb tuba sized mouthpiece, but not unless I've put in a solid month of hard hard long tones and goofy physical chop drills to get the face in shape-- in spite of the mouthpiece.
For me, an Eb tuba sized mouthpiece does work, but not as a daily driver, nor as a replacement for anything else. It is a tool to double tuba parts. And only because I put in a solid hard hard 35 years on Schilke 60 sized mouthpiece as a prep for it.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:56 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 24, 2017, 09:14AMYes, tbathras, I agree. I seldom play bass trombone anymore. Just for paid gigs...and those usually end up being covering stupid tuba parts in quintet, or in a huge orchestra doubling all parts from bone 2 or tuba...and competing with mega-amplified electric bass. For most of my bass trombone work I'm using a clip-on mic as well, but choose to play acoustically and blow the sh*t out of it, because the huge amplified choir like it that way, as does the music director.
I do then use the Wedge 1G, small Eb tuba sized mouthpiece, but not unless I've put in a solid month of hard hard long tones and goofy physical chop drills to get the face in shape-- in spite of the mouthpiece.
For me, an Eb tuba sized mouthpiece does work, but not as a daily driver, nor as a replacement for anything else. It is a tool to double tuba parts. And only because I put in a solid hard hard 35 years on Schilke 60 sized mouthpiece as a prep for it.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:40 am

Quote Without asking questions, we do not grow.

I'll say that one of most common elements of any discussion of mouthpieces and trying new ones seems to be a post warning that there are no shortcuts to playing the trombone.

On the plus side, it's one of the few internet topics where Hitler never gets mentioned.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:20 pm

Why? What mouthpiece did he play?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:39 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 24, 2017, 11:40AMOn the plus side, it's one of the few internet topics where Hitler never gets mentioned.

You've obviously never been on the trumpet forums

ttf_Max Croot · Post by **ttf_Max Croot** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:47 am

Hi Very interesting subject. I have played on a large EEb 5 valve tuba but it became too heavy for me as I aged so I sold it. I was looking around and lo and behold a person said to me. You play an instrument don't you, I got an old horn in my shed, been there for years but it's no good, its gone black. It was a small single 3 valve boosey and hawkes. He said you can have it. I took it home and cleaned it up. It had been converted to low pitch. It played very well but the mouthpiece was like a big bucket and didn't work very well. The mouthpiece receiver is the same size as my large shank mouthpieces. From the replies on the forum would a Schilke 60 be ok. I don't play much tuba, only very occasionally, if not what would be you suggestions. Cheers Max

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:41 am

QuoteHe then shows a passage (from Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, 4th movement) with a pedal Bb to pedal A that starts at ff and crescendos from there.
Yes I remember reading the passus about the Eb tuba mpc and Symphonie Fantasique when I first got the book. Funny! The piece is not even written for modern bass trombone, it is vritten for a trombone with a much smaller bore. And it is not even very low compared to the bass bone part in Wozzeck by Alban Berg to pedal D. That was play in Stockholm Opera on Bach 1 1/2G.

George Roberts and other bass trombnosts played beautiful pedal D:s also on size close to 1 1/2G

It must have been a really loud and elephant like performance of the Symphonie Fantastique.
Well that orchestra could really play loud....

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:59 am

QuoteI, for one, have come across pieces where the "bass trombone" is being requested to play quite low with either some level of facility or loudness that seems better suited on larger equipment (pedal F down to pedal Db) and also in unison with the tenors (up to A above the staff) all in the same piece.Well sometimes a composer write with a certain player in mind who can play what is writen. In the other hand if the pieces are writen for just any bass trombonist I say it is not very wise. I have played in concerts with pedal Db and A in the same concert, but never in the same piece. I have never seen one of those pieces. Anything is possible, I have seen lots of music that really is not playeble.
I rember a couple times when I got parts that was full of very fast tones all ove the place, I just faked the music, played fast tones all over the place, just following the ups and downs, after one of those concerts the composer thanked me for a magnificient work.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:13 am

Quote from: Max Croot on Dec 25, 2017, 03:47AMHi Very interesting subject. I have played on a large EEb 5 valve tuba but it became too heavy for me as I aged so I sold it. I was looking around and lo and behold a person said to me. You play an instrument don't you, I got an old horn in my shed, been there for years but it's no good, its gone black. It was a small single 3 valve boosey and hawkes. He said you can have it. I took it home and cleaned it up. It had been converted to low pitch. It played very well but the mouthpiece was like a big bucket and didn't work very well. The mouthpiece receiver is the same size as my large shank mouthpieces. From the replies on the forum would a Schilke 60 be ok. I don't play much tuba, only very occasionally, if not what would be you suggestions. Cheers Max

Max, I have a vintage Eb tuba mouthpiece that is conical and about the size of a 1 1/2 G (but much deeper). I don't like it. I also have an 1892 Conn Eb tuba similar to your Boosey and I play it with a Marcinkiewicz 107 (or sometimes the 105).

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:42 am

I used to use an EEb tuba m'pce on bass trombone when some foolish studio "arranger" wrote stuff in the pedal ranges that I simply couldn't play. English Besson EEbs (I still play one) used to come stock with a Besson m'pce that I found too small for low range tuba work. The EEB Bessons of the time had a smaller receiver than standard tubas, and so did that m'pce. It fit a stock bs. tbn receiver quite well. The m'pce was not too good above 2nd partial, but really good for elephantine pedal blatting. I no longer need to use it because...as has been pointed out here...the whole bs. tbn. equipment thing has gotten generally larger. Horns, m'pces...the works.

But if I had to use it?

It's still in my m'pce bag...

S.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 25, 2017, 05:59AMWell sometimes a composer write with a certain player in mind who can play what is writen. In the other hand if the pieces are writen for just any bass trombonist I say it is not very wise. I have played in concerts with pedal Db and A in the same concert, but never in the same piece. I have never seen one of those pieces. Anything is possible, I have seen lots of music that really is not playeble.
I rember a couple times when I got parts that was full of very fast tones all ove the place, I just faked the music, played fast tones all over the place, just following the ups and downs, after one of those concerts the composer thanked me for a magnificient work.

I forget the piece it came up in, but it was a recent "new age" piece. You are correct in that usually that spread in rage is between different charts but in the same concert.

I've noticed that sometimes when composers put ridiculous parts in for the trombones, it's more for effect. If you can fake the effect, that's generally more than satisfactory. I've even seen things that looked absurd, like 32nd note runs, that turned out to really be a gliss, but the composer wrote it that way so the notation software would play it back more closely to how it would sound.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:18 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Dec 25, 2017, 09:42AMI used to use an EEb tuba m'pce on bass trombone when some foolish studio "arranger" wrote stuff in the pedal ranges that I simply couldn't play. English Besson EEbs (I still play one) used to come stock with a Besson m'pce that I found too small for low range tuba work. The EEB Bessons of the time had a smaller receiver than standard tubas, and so did that m'pce. It fit a stock bs. tbn receiver quite well. The m'pce was not too good above 2nd partial, but really good for elephantine pedal blatting. I no longer need to use it because...as has been pointed out here...the whole bs. tbn. equipment thing has gotten generally larger. Horns, m'pces...the works.

But if I had to use it?

It's still in my m'pce bag...

S.

this is where I think I'm finding myself... I'd rather have a tool and rarely use it instead of not have it and be bummed, even once, that I could have used it and didn't. I double tuba a lot in one group to help them out and they seems to like the sound of the tuba/bass tbn in unison. I have no issues with range, but am curious how the small tuba 'piece will affect blending. I work pretty hard when doubling to make sure the sound has less edge and more roundness so my sound dissolves more into the tuba.

Later in January I'll have a chance to cover some tuba parts with this Eb 'piece I picked up to give it a test drive and then hopefully in February I'll put my order in for my contra

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm

Quote from: tbathras on Dec 25, 2017, 01:07PMI forget the piece it came up in, but it was a recent "new age" piece. You are correct in that usually that spread in rage is between different charts but in the same concert.

I've noticed that sometimes when composers put ridiculous parts in for the trombones, it's more for effect. If you can fake the effect, that's generally more than satisfactory. I've even seen things that looked absurd, like 32nd note runs, that turned out to really be a gliss, but the composer wrote it that way so the notation software would play it back more closely to how it would sound.

I have started playing in big bands recently after really not playing in jazz ensembles for many years (maybe 30). The first thing I noticed was that a lot of the bass trombone parts were significantly lower longer than I remembered. It seemed composers where also writing melodically in the pedal range. I am using a larger piece on my jazz horn than my symphonic setup.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:25 pm

I dont think Edward Kleinhammer would tell any trombone player to use an Eb tuba mouthpiece.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:25 pm

I dont think Edward Kleinhammer would tell any trombone player to use an Eb tuba mouthpiece.

Leif