Bohland & Fuchs, King 2B twin?

[ttf_demaxx1]

I purchased this trombone online, I was actually more interested in the case than the horn. I got the instrument, and it was fantastic condition. It looks a lot like a King Liberty 2B. Does anyone know anything about this instrument. It is a .460 bore, and no slide lock. I have played it, it is raw brass, and has a very nice tone. 

[ttf_Tbonedude]

With a 0.460" bore, it is not a perfect twin of the 2B (0.481/0.491 dual bore), but may have been built with the same jazz-and-commercial purpose in mind.

[ttf_demaxx1]

Not a perfect twin, you are correct. The horn plays well. It also tunes to 440 standard concert pitch. I always worry when I get a instrument this old that it may not be to today's standard pitch.

Quote from: Tbonedude on Jan 28, 2018, 12:23PMWith a 0.460" bore, it is not a perfect twin of the 2B (0.481/0.491 dual bore), but may have been built with the same jazz-and-commercial purpose in mind.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Without more pics this is just a shot in the dark, but I can think of two possibilities (haven't researched web yet, which may also yield some answers.)

Could be a King stencil - Have you measured both tubes? Are they both the Same?  With a .460 bore it could very well be a stencil based off of the New Proportions - the horns that eventually led to the 2B.

The curved brace was also a design feature of the Selmer trombones. Maybe an early selmer stencil? maybe an early design by the guy that designed the Selmer trombones.

It's hard to tell with the pics, I can't really tell if the ferrules and all that are King or not. Case seems like the early King slim cases, bell throat and flare seem very king-like from that period, but it's kind of hard to tell for sure.

Compare the slide grip to the 2B slide grip... that could be a clue. Similarity in the cork barrels and slide brace would most likely make it a King... the proportions and 2B/Liberty horns had a lot of similar parts.

[ttf_wayne88ny]

From Horn-U-Copia

Bohland & Fuchs
Graslitz
Czech Republic
1870-1945




Bohland and Fuchs (Graslitz, Czechoslovakia) are established as a partnership in 1870, following the firm of Gustavus Bohland, which had been founded 20 years earlier, and flourished until 1945 when the firm was nationalized. By 1925, they had a workforce of 500. They built a doublephon in 1891, a sub-contrass bass tuba which is the largest ever built in 1912, a double trombone, and a quarter-tone trumpet.

Bohland-Fuchs Logo Bohland & Fuchs instruments carry different nationality signs; Austria, Bohemia (Bohmen), Czechoslovakia, Czecho-Slovakia and perhaps also Germany. A short history lesson might be useful to understand that and also to date the manufacture of a certain instrument.

Bohland & Fuchs was established in Graslitz in Bohmen, a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (therefor the german spelling: Graslitz). Thus, the early instruments by Bohland & Fuchs are all marked Austria.

Bohmen - or Bohemia in English - was the most industrialized part of the Empire, but the majority of the population were not of German origin (except for Sudetenland, where Graslitz is located). The Czechs under Austrian supervision and the Slovaks under Hungarian supervison worked for freedom and in October 1918 a declaration of Czechoslovakian independence was issued. The first Czechoslovakian republic existed from 1918 until 1938. Instruments from this era are signed Czechoslovakia. It seems like they still used the German spelling Graslitz during this time, as most of the inhabitants of Sudetenland were Germans at this time.

In September 1938. Germany under Hitler was given Sudetenland (with Graslitz) in the Munchen Agreement. Then, Sudetenland became a part of Germany. In 1939 what was left of Czechoslovakia also became part of Germany, the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The few instruments from this German era (1938-1945) are signed Bohemia even though Graslitz did not belong to the protectorate. Correctly, they should have been Germany and maybe some were.

In 1945, after WWII, Sudetenland once again became Czechoslovakian and all musical instruments makers were centralized into one company. Amati (of Kraslice, Czech spelling of Graslitz). The new Czechoslovakian government did not want to be associated with things German, and most of the German population did flee to Germany. For example wind instrument makers the brothers Keilwerth, brass instrument makers Huttl and many craftsmen, for example those forming Kuhnl & Hoyer. Therefor many early Keilwerth, K&H and other contemporary German brass instruments seem to be copies of Bohland & Fuchs brass instruments.

Some instruments are signed Czecho-Slovakia. It may be as simple as just a two line word split, but If Bohland & Fuchs were following political decisions it may mean that these instruments were made 1918-1920. OR maybe during that short time 1938-1939 before the remnants of Czechoslovakia became the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. If so, it is like those made 1938-1945 (or maybe 1939-1945 if these 1938-1939 are their predecessors) who are signed Bohemia.

It also seems like some earlier instruments are signed Bohemia. Even though the old Bohemia had been under Austrian rule for centuries it still existed as a juridical Kingdom. Therefor it is possible that those early Bohemia are post 1900, and possibly post 1914.

[ttf_JohnL]

Quote from: wayne88ny on Jan 28, 2018, 11:18PMThe new Czechoslovakian government did not want to be associated with things German, and most of the German population did flee to Germany.Makes it sound like they had a choice in the matter, doesn't it?

The founders of Mirafone were also among those expelled.

[ttf_wayne88ny]

According to trumpet-history.com

The Bohland & Fuchs line of cornet models was popular with American retailers from the 1880s until the start of World War One....

These cornets were marketed by major music and department stores,  and even instrument makers. These resellers and their brands include:

·       Sears and Robuck “Marceau Paris”
·       Montgomery Wards “Jules De Vere, Paris”
·       Lyon & Healy “Henry Gunkel, Paris”
·       Carl Fischer Music House
·       Vega (Vega Banjo prior to the acquisition of Standard)
·       C. Bruno & Sons “Henry Pourcell”
·       H.N. White “Superior by M. Bauer”
·       H.N. White “Superior Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Union”
·       H.N. White “Imperial”
·       “Imperial, Geo. Baring, Eng.”
·       “Imperial, London, Eng.”
·       “Champion, Silver Piston, Chicago”

No doubt they were also making stencil trombones during this time period.  Perhaps H.N. White copied the curved brace from a Bohland & Fuchs trombone.

[ttf_demaxx1]

Quote from: wayne88ny on Jan 29, 2018, 11:20AMAccording to trumpet-history.com

The Bohland & Fuchs line of cornet models was popular with American retailers from the 1880s until the start of World War One....

These cornets were marketed by major music and department stores,  and even instrument makers. These resellers and their brands include:

·       Sears and Robuck “Marceau Paris”
·       Montgomery Wards “Jules De Vere, Paris”
·       Lyon & Healy “Henry Gunkel, Paris”
·       Carl Fischer Music House
·       Vega (Vega Banjo prior to the acquisition of Standard)
·       C. Bruno & Sons “Henry Pourcell”
·       H.N. White “Superior by M. Bauer”
·       H.N. White “Superior Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Union”
·       H.N. White “Imperial”
·       “Imperial, Geo. Baring, Eng.”
·       “Imperial, London, Eng.”
·       “Champion, Silver Piston, Chicago”

No doubt they were also making stencil trombones during this time period.  Perhaps H.N. White copied the curved brace from a Bohland & Fuchs trombone.

I found this information also. I also read and can't find it now, that some of the King instruments has Bohland&Fuchs inspired designs. So the curve may be taken from B&F.

[ttf_demaxx1]

Quote from: wayne88ny on Jan 29, 2018, 11:20AMAccording to trumpet-history.com

The Bohland & Fuchs line of cornet models was popular with American retailers from the 1880s until the start of World War One....

These cornets were marketed by major music and department stores,  and even instrument makers. These resellers and their brands include:

·       Sears and Robuck “Marceau Paris”
·       Montgomery Wards “Jules De Vere, Paris”
·       Lyon & Healy “Henry Gunkel, Paris”
·       Carl Fischer Music House
·       Vega (Vega Banjo prior to the acquisition of Standard)
·       C. Bruno & Sons “Henry Pourcell”
·       H.N. White “Superior by M. Bauer”
·       H.N. White “Superior Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Silver Star”
·       H.N. White “Union”
·       H.N. White “Imperial”
·       “Imperial, Geo. Baring, Eng.”
·       “Imperial, London, Eng.”
·       “Champion, Silver Piston, Chicago”

No doubt they were also making stencil trombones during this time period.  Perhaps H.N. White copied the curved brace from a Bohland & Fuchs trombone.

I found this information also. I also read and can't find it now, that some of the King instruments has Bohland&Fuchs inspired designs. So the curve may be taken from B&F.