3rd Partial F

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:19 pm

The 3rd partial F

is not quite in tune on most horns. How is it on your horn(s)? Yes, you play that note in perfect tune (don't we all?)! But if you were to tune the horn so that Bb is exactly right in closed 1st position, how does the F sound in closed 1st position?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:43 pm

i don't have a single horn, personal or governent owned, that does not have to have the slide out a bit to have that note in tune.

ttf_VoodooChild42 · Post by **ttf_VoodooChild42** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:37 pm

Mine's flat but after i get my top braces off my tuning is gonna change again. We'll see how it is this thursday.

ttf_tbn ervin · Post by **ttf_tbn ervin** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:44 pm

What kind of tuning are you refering to?

Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position

.
If you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,

(unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).

I, for one am trying to listen to the other players around me in order to know if I am in tune. Sometimes I need to close the slide all the way and sometimes I need to take it a little out.
I try not to be fixed on a single way of playing but relay on listening.

ttf_Steve · Post by **ttf_Steve** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:26 am

ok, i'll clarify...
the third partial F on all of my horns, especially my 88H, is very sharp against a tuner. of course I always rely on my ear, and I am well aware of equal tempered tuning vs pure harmony..
however... brass instruments are imperfect...
some notes are out of tune because of the natural tendencies of the overtone series (like the notorious seventh partial) and others are out of tune because of the quirks of the instrument.
you must know the tendencies of your particular instruments as well as those inherent to the overtone series in general.
QuoteIs it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position .
oh how i wish this were true, but it doesn't seem to be the case

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:07 am

Mine's sharp. Actually, I guess I should say all four are sharp. The least sharp is the Olds Super, the most sharp is the Bundy. I was under the impression that this was part of the dynamics of brass instruments, and that the third, fifth, and sixth partials were always a little sharp, like the seventh is way flat. Just the way the tubes go, something like that.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:15 am

Put the wrong mouthpiece in the horn and even the B flats in the various octaves can be out of tune with each other. If you take a close look at "brass instrument acoustics" you find that all brass instruments are very far from the idealized organ pipe you learned about in your physics class. If the partials on your horn are in tune with each other it is only because the trombone designer did an amazing job. Organ pipe theory says the 3rd partial will be a perfect 5th but organ pipe theory is almost irrelevant to a brass instrument with a conical bell.

ttf_virtualhaggis · Post by **ttf_virtualhaggis** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:49 am

My Yamaha YSL-841 (a not too common instrument from between '82 and '84) is almost bang on the button amazingly (with a Rath L6.5). Close enough to get away with in most circumstances. My bass (YBL-312 with Bach 2G) is a bit sharp. My new Rath R10 hasn't been fully tested yet. It feels pretty good, though. I just started on it yesterday and still haven't finalise the mouthpiece, probaby a Mt Vernon 11C.

ttf_Bob Riddle · Post by **ttf_Bob Riddle** » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:55 am

Glad to know it is not just me

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:33 am

i extend my slide to get every note in tune, not just the F.

nothing is in dead 1st. i like my teeth too much.

Quote from: tbn ervin on Jan 15, 2006, 11:44PMWhat kind of tuning are you refering to?

Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position

.

not quite true, Erv, or every tbn would have that note in the exact same place. Besides, there is more than one tuning system that isn't "well tempered." How the horn is constructed has a lot to do with where the notes line up - hence why on a shires you don't have to adjust positions near as much, and why on my king 2Bs every D above middle C is in a different spot (it's sharp on two, flat on the third.)

Quote from: David Gross on Jan 16, 2006, 07:15AMPut the wrong mouthpiece in the horn and even the B flats in the various octaves can be out of tune with each other. If you take a close look at "brass instrument acoustics" you find that all brass instruments are very far from the idealized organ pipe you learned about in your physics class. If the partials on your horn are in tune with each other it is only because the trombone designer did an amazing job. Organ pipe theory says the 3rd partial will be a perfect 5th but organ pipe theory is almost irrelevant to a brass instrument with a conical bell.
thanks for posting that, David.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:54 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on Feb 12, 2016, 07:33AMi extend my slide to get every note in tune, not just the F.

nothing is in dead 1st. i like my teeth too much.

This is why I like slides with springs. I know they are really just a crutch, but I like them anyway.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:49 am

Quote from: tbn ervin on Jan 15, 2006, 11:44PMWhat kind of tuning are you refering to?

Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position

.
If you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,

(unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).

I, for one am trying to listen to the other players around me in order to know if I am in tune. Sometimes I need to close the slide all the way and sometimes I need to take it a little out.
I try not to be fixed on a single way of playing but relay on listening.
It is a good idea to have the slide out a bit for the Bb so you can tune to the surounding enviroment.

The overtoneseries vs the partials in brass instruments does not behave the same way. The overtoneseries are allways tuned the same way, the partials in a trombone line up in different ways depending on the tubing, a mix of cylindrically and conically bore. And the difference in welltempered and perfect fifth is only two cents, the sharpness in some trombones 3rd partial can be much more then that, and in some (very few modern trombones) cases the 3rd partial is very flatt.

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:12 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Feb 28, 2016, 02:49AMIt is a good idea to have the slide out a bit for the Bb so you can tune to the surrounding environment.

This is the approach I subscribe to. In a brass band I play in the conductor (a baritone horn player) sometimes walks around with a tuner and asks me to play a note by myself - usually a Bb but sometimes notes in other positions. My first position is about a thumb-width off the bumper but he presumes it's against the bumpers. The pitch I produce is a result of the thumb-width and whatever pitch is in my head. Sometimes I pretend to move my tuning slide to align myself better with the tuner, knowing that it works fine when playing with the band..

I've been wondering lately if I should just tell him about the thumb width and that he should just trust trombones to play in tune with what's around them. The risk is that some (non-trombonists) might consider this "unorthodox" approach to be idiocy.

Dave

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Tue May 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Quote from: tbn ervin on Jan 15, 2006, 11:44PMWhat kind of tuning are you refering to?

Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position

.
Certainly not true on all trombones. Probably not true on most brass instruments

QuoteIf you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,

(unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).
The difference between a perfect ratio fifth and a equal tempered fifth is less than two cents which is smaller than most people can quickly discern in real life music making circumstances.

The error between 1st position Bb and F is greater than that, on my horn, anyway. There is no tuning or temperament where they can both use the exact same slide position and be in tune.

ttf_Eastcheap · Post by **ttf_Eastcheap** » Tue May 17, 2016 8:30 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on May 17, 2016, 06:54PMCertainly not true on all trombones.

It's as untrue now as it was a decade ago.

A straight pipe doesn't even have any even partials. Sticking a horn on the end telescopes the series down into something that's close to harmonic. It's kind of amazing that it works as well as it does.

At the extreme, the first partial of a B-flat trumpet or trombone is something like E-flat, as best I recall. It's why the pedals are so strange.

ttf_randyb · Post by **ttf_randyb** » Tue May 17, 2016 8:47 pm

I like to tune my D above the staff to a closed 1st position. Everything else is extended somewhat in 1st.
My f attachment I tune my F below the staff almost to a closed 1st position and everything else is somewhat extended.
Seems to work for me.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue May 17, 2016 9:03 pm

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:30PMIt's as untrue now as it was a decade ago.

A straight pipe doesn't even have any even partials. Sticking a horn on the end telescopes the series down into something that's close to harmonic. It's kind of amazing that it works as well as it does.

At the extreme, the first partial of a B-flat trumpet or trombone is something like E-flat, as best I recall. It's why the pedals are so strange.

If I take the outer slide off and play just the top inner slide, it has distinct partials.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Wed May 18, 2016 8:57 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on Feb 12, 2016, 07:33AMnot quite true, Erv, or every tbn would have that note in the exact same place. Besides, there is more than one tuning system that isn't "well tempered."

Not to mention the plethora of historical and modern temperaments that could fall under the "well tempered" designation!

Quote from: svenlarsson on Feb 28, 2016, 02:49AM And the difference in welltempered and perfect fifth is only two cents, the sharpness in some trombones 3rd partial can be much more then that, and in some (very few modern trombones) cases the 3rd partial is very flatt.

Perhaps it is a translational misnomer, but the terms "welltempered" and "equal tempered" should not be interchanged so freely. Equal temperament is a type of well temperament, but there are many well temperaments that are far from equal. There was confusion between the "well" and "good temperaments" as far back as the late 1600s. Good, well, circulating; all terms that mean generally the same thing but have certain historical implications. Perfect fifths in some of the "well" temperaments are three times as bad as those in equal temperament, falling 6 cents from pure.

Quote from: robcat2075 on May 17, 2016, 06:54PMThe difference between a perfect ratio fifth and a equal tempered fifth is less than two cents which is smaller than most people can quickly discern in real life music making circumstances.

The error between 1st position Bb and F is greater than that, on my horn, anyway. There is no tuning or temperament where they can both use the exact same slide position and be in tune.

Could you make a rough guess of just how sharp the F is in the same slide position? Depending on how far it deviates, it could feasibly match up with some of the more peculiar French temperaments that utilize wolf-trisection to achieve circularity. They have characteristic wide fifths and narrow fourths on a portion of the flat side of the circle from C-F-Bb-Eb.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:07 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Feb 28, 2016, 02:49AM

The overtoneseries vs the partials in brass instruments does not behave the same way. The overtoneseries are allways tuned the same way, the partials in a trombone line up in different ways depending on the tubing, a mix of cylindrically and conically bore.

Yes. This bears repeating because it's so widely misunderstood. Overtones (the frequencies above a given note you are playing) are not the same thing as partials (the different notes you can play in a given position.)

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:23 pm

Don't tell the piano tuners, they make their living on concurrent partials

I think you will find that the use of 'partials' as a term relative to playing an instrument is a very brass-centric phenomenon. Traditionally, a 'partial', is any single sine-wave constituent of a complex waveform. Partials are the fundamental unit of Fourier analysis. In this sense, referring to the "3rd Partial F" in the context of a Bb instrument, would be referring to the specific sine wave whose frequency equates to F within the total spectrum of the fundamental note Bb.

As if this is making it simpler

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:26 pm

Quote from: MrPillow on Jun 03, 2016, 03:23PM In this sense, referring to the "3rd Partial F" in the context of a Bb instrument, would be referring to the specific sine wave whose frequency equates to F within the total spectrum of the fundamental note Bb.

As if this is making it simpler

There is more than one meaning to the term partial, I'll grant you that.

But trombone players use the word very specifically, to refer to a note in a position. That note contains a multitude of overtones, but the partial to us is the fundamental frequency of that note. Yes, a fundamental Bb would have an F in the overtone series, but that isn't what we're talking about when we say 3rd partial F.

Here's the important part. If we play a Bb in 1st position and measure the frequency of the F, which is easy to do with modern equipment, and then repeat the experiment by playing 3rd partial F in that same exact position, they will not be the same frequency.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:08 pm

Some trombone players might use the term very specifically and only for a single use. Many others toss it around interchangeably with overtone, harmonic, etc. They very well might be 'wrong' to the others, but the ambiguity is seemingly here to stay. On a side note, I find it becomes another motivation for true implementation of Scientific Pitch Notation, so that instrument-specific terminology can be removed from the conversation.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 03, 2016, 05:26PMHere's the important part. If we play a Bb in 1st position and measure the frequency of the F, which is easy to do with modern equipment, and then repeat the experiment by playing 3rd partial F in that same exact position, they will not be the same frequency.

Such may be the important part, but is it that simple? I will have to give it a run once I am back at the NMM with the BIAS toys. Will they certainly not be the same frequency? If you play a Bb, or better yet, generate one with a neutral driver, and then measure the ratios of its harmonic series, how do those ratios compare to the actual acoustic impedance nodes of the instrument? The note we call third partial F, and where we want it to fall musically, might very well be a different frequency from the overtone that results mathematically above any partial below it, but do the overtone and the partial actually differ? I've never considered that aspect.

As I see it, the problem with trying to make the comparison by asking any individual to play the two notes, is that their perception of the note and how they produce it via their embouchure is indiscriminately skewed by musical tendencies. Putting the slide in the same place is in no way any guarantee that they are playing anywhere near the center of either impedance node.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:59 pm

For conversations sake, I went ahead and conducted a rudimentary test. I had a buddy of mine play a pedal Bb and third partial F with the slide all the way in. I instructed him to play as best he could straight down the center of the slot, not trying to adjust either way, simply matching where the horn resonated the best. I ran a FFT on both clips. Interestingly, the average frequency of F3 as an overtone of Bb1 and as the fundamental, was near enough the same - 175.97hz, or F3+13 cents in equal temperament.

Based on the average fundamental of the pedal Bb at 58.42hz (Bb1+4 cents), it is clear that neither the overtone or the third partial are aligning with the expected frequency ratio of the harmonic series (1901.95 cents for a pure 12th, 1908.98 cents for the acoustic 12th of that instrument), instead matching the "altered" harmonic series of the instrument itself. The third partial F appears to be sharper than expected by the same amount, whether it is functioning as a fundamental or an overtone. In hindsight it easily makes sense - you're not going to generate overtones anywhere other than the center of the horns natural impedance peaks.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:44 am

Quote from: MrPillow on Jun 03, 2016, 06:59PMIn hindsight it easily makes sense - you're not going to generate overtones anywhere other than the center of the horns natural impedance peaks.

Thank you for doing that. That doesn't match results I've had so I'll have to try again.

But no, in hindsight it doesn't make sense.

The overtones of a steady note should be integral multiples. That is a consequence of any driven system (as opposed to an impulsive system). Driven systems respond at the driving frequency, not at their own natural frequencies. We should not expect any system to generate overtones at its natural impedance peaks. What we would expect is that the overtones would be strongest near those impedance peaks.

Lining up those impedance peaks is what makes horn design an art. If you line them up near driven frequencies you get good response but lack of ability to color the tone, or should anyway.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:23 am

Interesting. I tried the experiment again today with another player on a different trombone, and ended up with a third partial F that was roughly 6 cents sharper than F3 as an overtone of Bb1. The overtone F3 though, at any given instant, was still itself about 4 cents above than a pure 12th. Perhaps there is some influence not only on the placement of the impedance peaks, but their envelope as well. A horn with a wider impedance slot is more likely to have prominent overtones closer to the expected pure ratios?

If the impedance peaks have a very fast envelope, and are not well aligned with the pure ratios of the natural harmonic series, they will in effect diminish the presence of those non-aligning overtones in the sound?

So many factors at play, it's rather fun to ponder.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:36 am

So, pull out?

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:36 pm

I think in the vast majority of circumstances, lowering the third partial F is going to serve you better than not lowering it. Old horns, weird horns, certain harmonies, can obscure the generalization.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:51 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Jun 04, 2016, 09:36AMSo, pull out?

I always do

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:36 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Jun 04, 2016, 09:36AMSo, pull out?

That's what sh* said!

ttf_Eastcheap · Post by **ttf_Eastcheap** » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:56 pm

Quote from: MrPillow on Jun 03, 2016, 06:59PMBased on the average fundamental of the pedal Bb at 58.42hz (Bb1+4 cents), it is clear that neither the overtone or the third partial are aligning with the expected frequency ratio of the harmonic series

It's not surprising when you consider that, for pedal notes, the fundamental contributes practically nothing to the series. Your graph shows that clearly, as the first significant peak is -33dB at ~175Hz, a whopping 30dB or so over the fundamental (about 32 times the amplitude) and about 24dB over the second harmonic. To put it in perspective, 30dB is the kind of attenuation you'd expect from foam earplugs, or an exceptional pair of protective earmuffs.

Pedal B-flat sounds like a B-flat because it has a B-flat's overtones but, yeah, an average frequency in the neighborhood of the third harmonic sounds about right.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:27 pm

So theoretically, for any note other than the pedal tones of a brass instrument, every sounding overtone should precisely fit the simple integer ratios of the pure harmonic series?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:25 pm

Quote from: Eastcheap on Jun 05, 2016, 01:56PMIt's not surprising when you consider that, for pedal notes, the fundamental contributes practically nothing to the series.
[s]
I'm not too sure about this. You can definitely hear the fundamental in pedal notes. A first harmonic Bb and a pedal Bb do NOT sound the same, except as a note (Bb). This result could have a lot to do with the recording equipment, the software and any filters that were applied (by whatever means, intended or otherwise). I have made recordings on trombone pedal notes where the FT clearly shows the fundamental to be the dominant frequency in the harmonic series.

Of course I'm sure you'll all agree the physicist is wrong and has no clue.

Par for the course on TTF.[/s]

Ignore the above, as it appears to be incoherent rubbish. BillO

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:33 pm

Quote from: MrPillow on Jun 05, 2016, 02:27PMSo theoretically, for any note other than the pedal tones of a brass instrument, every sounding overtone should precisely fit the simple integer ratios of the pure harmonic series?

What, for a real life trombone, or a cylindrical tube?

It would take a bit of real effort to come up with a usable theory for a real trombone - lips, mouthpiece, profile, material and all. Most trombones would probably fit fairly well with that theory if it existed.

However, I would not expect them to comply exactly with a theory that suits the simple damped, driven harmonic oscillator (like a cylindrical tube driven with a zero impedance source), wherein every overtone should precisely fit the simple integer ratios of the pure harmonic series.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:43 am

Quote from: BillO on Jun 05, 2016, 06:25PMI'm not too sure about this. You can definitely hear the fundamental in pedal notes. A first harmonic Bb and a pedal Bb do NOT sound the same, except as a note (Bb).
Of course you can hear the fundamental, but it is constructed in your brain.

This is nothing new, this has been known for centuries.

If your horn is conical enough you might get some fundamental content in a pedal note, but your ear will still hear it if it is completely filtered out and nonexistent. The overtone series is sufficient to fool the ear without the pedal frequency.

Yes of course the first harmonic and the pedal sound different. I think the ear can tell that the timbre changes without the fundamental even if it "hears" the pitch. But also the overtone series is different. The pedal Bb will have the 4th line F and ledger D, the first harmonic will not.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:59 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 06, 2016, 04:43AMOf course you can hear the fundamental, but it is constructed in your brain.

This is nothing new, this has been known for centuries.

If your horn is conical enough you might get some fundamental content in a pedal note, but your ear will still hear it if it is completely filtered out and nonexistent. The overtone series is sufficient to fool the ear without the pedal frequency.

Yes of course the first harmonic and the pedal sound different. I think the ear can tell that the timbre changes without the fundamental even if it "hears" the pitch. But also the overtone series is different. The pedal Bb will have the 4th line F and ledger D, the first harmonic will not.

Okay. my bad. I see eastcheap was talking about fundamental (lowest harmonic) tone in the production of the pedal Bb(1) and I was thinking something completely different. The fundamental tone is the largest component in playing Bb(2), but my mind and fingers were not in sync.

Thanks for pointing it out.

ttf_Eastcheap · Post by **ttf_Eastcheap** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:23 pm

Quote from: BillO on Jun 05, 2016, 06:33PMIt would take a bit of real effort to come up with a usable theory for a real trombone

There's nothing easy about a closed tube with a horn at both ends.

I believe clarinets and oboes are pretty good about playing by the rules.

QuoteHowever, I would not expect them to comply exactly with a theory that suits the simple damped, driven harmonic oscillator

Probably best to think of the harmonic series as an ideal to which nature strives with varying degrees of success. Wind instruments seem to get pretty close.

ttf_Eastcheap · Post by **ttf_Eastcheap** » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:23 pm

Quote from: BillO on Jun 05, 2016, 06:33PMIt would take a bit of real effort to come up with a usable theory for a real trombone

There's nothing easy about a closed tube with a horn at both ends.

I believe clarinets and oboes are pretty good about playing by the rules.

QuoteHowever, I would not expect them to comply exactly with a theory that suits the simple damped, driven harmonic oscillator

Probably best to think of the harmonic series as an ideal to which nature strives with varying degrees of success. Wind instruments seem to get pretty close.