Olds Recording Trombone

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:07 pm

I have an Olds Recording trombone (L.A.) that is for the most part, rose brass bell and hand slide
I have seen some other versions of this horn that look sort of different -nickel silver(?) outer slide, and (more) yellow-ish type of bell.
Did they make two versions of this horn?
And, what exactly is a Re-O-Loy bell?
Thanks.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:25 pm

The first couple years of LA production had high-copper brass outers. I think the alloy was probably 85-15 Cu-Zn. I suspect Re-o-Loy was the same thing. It's certainly lighter in color than the bells on Supers, which are identified in Olds literature as being "bronze" (one of the may names for 90-10 Cu-Zn is "commercial bronze").

I don't think the bell material changed - more likely the lacquer on the older horns has darkened a bit. I've got a couple late 1930's Supers with the original lacquer and it's pretty dark.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:01 pm

Thanks.
Could it be that the older L.A. models had a higher copper content in the bell as well?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:27 pm

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Oct 11, 2015, 07:01PMThanks.
Could it be that the older L.A. models had a higher copper content in the bell as well? It's possible. I've seen too many oddball things from Olds to make a definitive statement about ANYTHING not being possible. I know they built some horns under government contract that had bells like an R-20 Recording but in what looks like red brass.

Olds did make some material changes in the immediate post-WWII time period. One run of Supers had yellow brass tone rings. A few years back, a Super surfaced with a nickel tone ring, a bronze bell flare, a yellow bell tail, a yellow tuning slide crook, and a bronze neckpipe.

ttf_cb56 · Post by **ttf_cb56** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:56 pm

I think lacquer condition and/or lack of has alot to do with the appearance.
If you look at the two Recordings on the Brass Ark webpage they look alot different from each other.

of course the bottom one has the red brass slide so

My '66 Recording has most of the lacqer in tact and it does have a little yellowish tint, but when I hold it up to my yellow brass Blessing B88 I see a big difference.

My '59 Recording had alot of lacqer missing so I stripped the rest off and shined it up. I was kind of disappointed that it wasn't more red looking. But now that it's starting to patina again, it's getting a nice brownish red look to it.

Here are my two bell sections together right after I stripped and polished the '59.
Left '66 w lacquer Right '59 no lacquer and shined up.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:52 pm

The one I have looks like the bottom one of the Brass Ark photos- definitely rose brass.
I've seen a few on Ebay that more like the first one. I wasn't sure if this difference had to do with the lacquer being stripped, the age of the horn or a change in the design over the years. My guess is that Olds sort of changed their metal mix over the years (for whatwver reason)

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:13 am

When Olds changed alloys they did it for a specific model and it was marketed as such, and designed for a different need.

JohnL's website www.itsabear.com has astonishing photos to prove this to your eye.

The Recording was thick thick ( about 1/4") RED copper.
The P-15 was GOLD and thin.
Both are 8".

Recording was rey-o-lay I think.
P-15 is lub-a-loy.

If it is different they tell you so in the marketing material.

Funny thing about a Recording-- if you polish it its sort of futile. It'll polish but not the way a Conn does...different alloy. A conn gets grungy and attracts dirt and filth when it gets patina on unlacquered surfaces. The Olds remains free of grime. Quite something to see.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:09 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Oct 12, 2015, 06:13AM
The Recording was thick thick ( about 1/4") RED copper.
The P-15 was GOLD and thin.
Both are 8".

.

Is this a misprint???????????????????????

1/4in seems very thick for a bell

That is half the diameter of a Conn 6H bore!!! I suspect it would be a very heavy bell and not much resonance!

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:53 am

Whuups. Yes, a misprint. Without a micrometer I'd guess it is easily 1/8th inch.

Regardless of the actual metrical measurement or a Recording bell it is easily 2X or 3X thicker than an Elkhart Conn red bell, or 3X the thickness of a P-15.

If you can find a good photo of a bell engraving on a Recording you'll see that it appears to be stamped or gouged out about 1/10" deep. It really does look like someone took a chisel to the bell...not a stamp or some sort of cheezie engraving gun. It is in there well thicker than any other bell is made. ( Aside from the other 1950s Olds bells.......I have a 10 3/8" yellow belled S-23 that is also 3X thicker than any Bach bell......)

I purchased 2 aftermarket counterweights from Hickey's and screwed them BOTH on in case I ever have to use a mute.
The nickle silver slide is built like a tank as well.

You want the analogy? Think of the thickness of the metal in the body of a 1950s American made automobile. Now think of the thickness of the metal in a modern Japanese auto. That's the difference between an Olds Recording and a modern Yamaha bell.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:00 am

I like the automobile analogy...
What counterweights did you buy from Hickey's that fit onto a Recording? That would be awesome without having to search for an original one.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:34 am

Hickey's sells a generic one for about $26US. I've bought three in the past year. Two were about 6 oz. One was bigger maybe 7oz? 8oz? About 1" bigger and heavier. So, you're not going to be able to specify, or tell. I think they're Allied.
Order two. If they're not the same use the one you want. If they're different use the heavier one, or use the heavier one to the rear and use both.

They will NOT fit the braces on any Olds. However, they are English measurement, not metric. Go to Home Depot and grab a couple of bulk individual screws in a 10-32 ( maybe 8-32?, I forget)size about 1" or 1 1/4" long. They will replace the short screws that come with the generic weight. The longer screws make them fit anything. If you're worried about cosmetics you can buy nubs/nuts to cover the ends of the screws and make it look finished.

Home Depot is your friend.

I'm always a bit miffed that the Recording is a lot more work to play than a P-15. But I do a fair bit of work with a pro blues band in a three-horn section and THEN I'm thrilled to have the Recording.
Microphone? Who needs a mic? A healthy mezzo-forte with a Recording will eat through any amplified band. Show up to a gig with two electric guitars, electric bass, electric piano, and THEN be thrilled with a Recording.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:48 pm

I have a 1948

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:10 pm

oh my goodness that's beautiful! is it original condition or redone?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:35 am

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Oct 12, 2015, 10:10PMoh my goodness that's beautiful! is it original condition or redone?
Original.
Bought it from the original owner, who was 80+ years old.

He lives in western Colorado.

T.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:44 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Oct 12, 2015, 10:34AMHickey's sells a generic one for about $26US. I've bought three in the past year. Two were about 6 oz. One was bigger maybe 7oz? 8oz? About 1" bigger and heavier. So, you're not going to be able to specify, or tell. I think they're Allied.
Order two. If they're not the same use the one you want. If they're different use the heavier one, or use the heavier one to the rear and use both.

They will NOT fit the braces on any Olds. However, they are English measurement, not metric. Go to Home Depot and grab a couple of bulk individual screws in a 10-32 ( maybe 8-32?, I forget)size about 1" or 1 1/4" long. They will replace the short screws that come with the generic weight. The longer screws make them fit anything. If you're worried about cosmetics you can buy nubs/nuts to cover the ends of the screws and make it look finished.

Home Depot is your friend.

I'm always a bit miffed that the Recording is a lot more work to play than a P-15. But I do a fair bit of work with a pro blues band in a three-horn section and THEN I'm thrilled to have the Recording.
Microphone? Who needs a mic? A healthy mezzo-forte with a Recording will eat through any amplified band. Show up to a gig with two electric guitars, electric bass, electric piano, and THEN be thrilled with a Recording.

If they don't fit the braces of the Olds, would it mean that the contact points would be irregular? And since you have to buy longer screws, it sounds like it be wider than the horizontal plane of the tuning slide.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:05 am

The cylindrical hole down the length of the generic weight has a smaller diameter. It does fit-- but not snugly. There is a gap on both sides...and it isn't flush.

Hence the need for longer screws to hold it in place.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:15 pm

I modified a King counterweight by assembling it with the screws and drilling the hole larger.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:54 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Oct 17, 2015, 07:05AMThe cylindrical hole down the length of the generic weight has a smaller diameter. It does fit-- but not snugly. There is a gap on both sides...and it isn't flush.

Hence the need for longer screws to hold it in place.

Okay thanks! I guess it's better than nothing...